NeuroTypical

Youth suicide risk and mental health

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11 minutes ago, NightSG said:

As a side note, I also blame the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality for the existence of 99% of "praise band" music.  When mommy kept telling little Johnny how wonderful his lyrics were instead of suggesting that there might be something else that he would actually be good at, he got the idea that repeating the same line 6,897 times and calling it a song was OK.

While this is a contributor of the decline of today's society, this really has nothing to do with Mental Illness.

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The subject of psychology is fascinating to me. I think the human brain and mind are going to be the real last frontier in science, and that we've just begun to skim the surface so far.

The term comes from Greek psyche ("breath, spirit, soul, mind") and logia ("study of," from Greek logos "word, saying, speech, discourse, thought, proportion, ratio, reckoning")

So psychology and religion very much overlap in their subject.

I would love it if we LDS had a whole new book of scripture that told us what to do about depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, ADHD, etc. But we don't. So I think God wants us to figure this stuff out, using the mostly general guidelines in the scriptures we do have - and using whatever tools science and medicine can provide. 

I have little patience for the old idea that mental illness is all in your head ("just snap out of it') or that a person should be ashamed to see a mental health counselor. I personally think most people, if not all, could greatly benefit from some counselling.

However, caution is advised. As some people have said, some current ideas in the field of psychology are directly against the gospel.

I personally think the field has a long, long way to go. Just look at the recent debacle with the DSM-5. You could probbably say at this point it's one part science, one part witch doctoring. That doesn't mean it's worthless. Many people get real benefit from psychiatric drugs. Many people get real benefit from treatments, such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

I myself have battled with anxiety and depression. I knew several kids in my old ward who in just the space of one year returned home from BYU Provo because of debilitating anxiety - they had a real problem, and telling them to just pray or snap out of it wasn't enough.

By the way if anyone is interested, I have found the following the most useful books for depression and anxiety. Neither is by an LDS author, but our Mormon religion tells us to find knowledge and truth wherever we can in this world:

Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy, 2008
by David D. Burns

This book gave me the toolbox I needed to manage depression. Most valuable book I have read outside the scriptures.

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Zen Living, 2000
by Eve Adamson and Gary McClain

This book was life-changing. No, I'm still a Mormon not a Buddhist. But I find many of the tools from the Zen folks to be greatly, practically helpful.

Edited by tesuji

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23 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I would love it if we LDS had a whole new book of scripture that told us what to do about depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, ADHD, etc.

Not scripture, but the church recently put new resources on LDS.org to help bishops navigate these kinds of issues. 

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:D

Quote

" By design, the DSM is primarily concerned with the signs and symptoms of mental disorders, rather than the underlying causes. It claims to collect them together based on statistical or clinical patterns. As such, it has been compared to a naturalist's field guide to birds... "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders#Criticism

 

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10 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I didn't know that. Do you have a link?

It's under a new Leader Resources section that I don't have full access to. 

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Like heck I will. Better watch it, linking the SL Tribulation is nigh unto posting straightforward anti garbage. 

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I don't know why they keep giving that clown air time. Well, I do know why, but I think it's pathetic.

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9 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I think Tesuji was being sarcastic. :)

I wish we had a sarcasm font or something. I was, too. :)

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5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

While this is a contributor of the decline of today's society, this really has nothing to do with Mental Illness.

Overall, I believe it does; that's hardly the only category where parents keep telling their kids they're great at something until the kid gets out in the real world and finds out that he can't do the thing he thought he was the best in the world at.  That leads to a feeling of total inadequacy for a lot of them, which then progresses into full blown mental illnesses over time.

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6 hours ago, tesuji said:

I have little patience for the old idea that mental illness is all in your head ("just snap out of it') or that a person should be ashamed to see a mental health counselor. I personally think most people, if not all, could greatly benefit from some counselling.

However, caution is advised. As some people have said, some current ideas in the field of psychology are directly against the gospel.

I personally think the field has a long, long way to go. Just look at the recent debacle with the DSM-5. You could probbably say at this point it's one part science, one part witch doctoring. That doesn't mean it's worthless. Many people get real benefit from psychiatric drugs. Many people get real benefit from treatments, such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

It's not about "snapping" out of it, it is about learning how to retrain thought patterns, actions, etc. There is some very helpful stuff in CBT, there are very helpful books, there are very good counselors. Yes, some people do get benefits from drugs (however, the placebo effect is very real).  It is more witch doctoring than it is science. There are some individuals who clearly have something wrong biologically; there are others where it more likely they just simply haven't trained themselves properly.

My big issue is that we as a culture treat psychologists as gods. Person xyz has a problem, go see a shrink-they will fix you; when it doesn't work like that. They may help you, they may not and if you go to a shrink that doesn't have a God-fearing background and upbringing so much the worse. My advice has always been, find someone you trust who is wiling to give you advice, that person may be a shrink, but it may not be.  One doesn't need the false god of psychology to solve ones own demons. Because unless you want to pop a pill, the only way to solve "mental illness" problems is for the person to fix themselves (and no that is not snapping out of it-b/c again it doesn't work like that).  In the vast majority of cases, popping the pill simply covers up the underlying problems-like taking an aspirin (it doesn't fix the problem it just makes it feel better). The DSM says as much.

However, incidents like this:

 

are not mental illness; one might classify it as "mental illness" but it isn't.  That is quite simply an adult tantrum. Clearly, she can drive so she can biologically function properly.  My 3 year-old will throw a version of this (without the profantiy), roll on the floor throw a fit, say no,  act out, etc.  This person is in a bad mood and doesn't like to be told no and promptly throws a tantrum when she doesn't get her way.  That is not a mental illness, that is called acting like a child.

Quite simply we will see more and more "mental illness" problems in modern society, not because more people have actual problems, but because as a culture we have lost the will to properly raise our children and that will to raise children has been infected by psychologists.

For example, some parenting professionals will advise that a parent must give a child a logical reason to do something and that children should question the authority of the parent. Heck no, a child must be taught obedience, before they can learn to distinguish between when it is appropriate to question authority or not they must learn strict obedience.

Edited by yjacket

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Where do you think the concept and practice of CBT comes from? Who wrote the books on it? Do you see them as gods because you believe they offer valuable knowledge about something helpful?

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16 hours ago, NightSG said:

Overall, I believe it does; that's hardly the only category where parents keep telling their kids they're great at something until the kid gets out in the real world and finds out that he can't do the thing he thought he was the best in the world at.  That leads to a feeling of total inadequacy for a lot of them, which then progresses into full blown mental illnesses over time.

Uhmmm... I don't think so.

Differences in discipline/parenting style doesn't lead to mental illness.  Rather, differences in discipline/parenting style MAY expose/acerbate/intensify already existing mental illnesses or those predisposed to mental illness.

Misbehaved adults does not equal Mental Illness.

 

Edited by anatess2

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One problem I've come to understand about anything psychological is that everything must be labelled and categorized and put in a box.  Why?  Because it helps us deal with it.

My BIL has a child with a host of medical issues.  It pushed them to the limit emotionally and spiritually.  But they recently learned "what he had".  There was a name for it.  Only dozen or so cases in the US are known to exist.  It didn't change anything about his condition.  There is no cure. And they still have to treat the symptoms the same way -- a few new ideas, but nothing life-changing. Nothing has really changed.  But because it has a label, it is easier on them emotionally.  We humans do this.  I think we tend to try to do the same thing with depression.  

One problem is that this is an issue that isn't easily cordoned off.  There is no box to put it in.  You don't have "all the normal people" over here and "all the insane people" over there.  There is a graduating range of abnormality.  Another thread recently talked about violent thoughts and desires to do someone harm.  At what point is it something to be concerned about?  Thoughts of killing oneself?  At what point?  There is no hard line in the sand on such an issue.  Yes, you can say that if someone actually takes physical steps towards it, that is definitely something to worry about.  But isn't it a problem prior to that point?  I'd say so.  But when?  No hard line.

******************************

We know we have chemicals released in the brain that causes certain feelings and even thoughts.  But we certainly can't measure it.  How do we know when it is a concern?  How much is normal?  Very difficult.

My personal experience with medication is that none of it worked.  I had one drug that caused me to have a physical tinging sensation like the needles that come after your foot fell asleep.  I had a tough time going to sleep like that.  Then with sleep deprivation came more depression.  The rest of them had no effect.

But I do know a friend who didn't have depression, but he had some other condition that basically removed inhibitions.  If he thought about climbing up a high cell tower, he would just go do it.  Trespassing, safety, the fact that he was on his way to work, etc. were not even considered.  But on medication, he would stop and realize he can't do that.  It was very clear for him that medication did work.

Edited by Guest

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16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But I do know a friend who didn't have depression, but he had some other condition that basically removed inhibitions.  If he thought about climbing up a high cell tower, he would just go do it.  Trespassing, safety, the fact that he was on his way to work, etc. were not even considered.  But on medication, he would stop and realize he can't do that.  It was very clear for him that medication did work.

Do you happen to know what medication was used?  Curious since his original symptoms sound just like what the psychiatrist I worked for described as the possible reason for some of the Chantix suicides; any crazy thought just didn't get filtered out, so "I have a sore throat - I bet bleach will kill the germs" instead of being shut down by the subconscious becomes a semi-conscious action.  (Essentially, we all subconsciously think of solutions like that, but most of us never even know it because the pointless/suicidal thoughts are filtered before the conscious mind is aware of them. For some reason, a few psychoactive drugs can cause problems with the filter. Since we're not used to having to consciously resist the urge, it starts happening in something akin to a trance state.)

Would be interesting to see if anyone has tried whatever your friend was on to counter that side effect.

Edited by NightSG

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On April 14, 2016 at 3:57 PM, yjacket said:

My big issue is that we as a culture treat psychologists as gods. Person xyz has a problem, go see a shrink-they will fix you; when it doesn't work like that. They may help you, they may not and if you go to a shrink that doesn't have a God-fearing background and upbringing so much the worse.

People may think that, but that isn't how it works.  You go to a shrink and a good one, IMO, helps you find your own answers.  No one can fix you, that is a job you have to do yourself, but sometimes you need some help.  Neither of my therapists (two) have a God-fearing background, but they have been very respectful of my beliefs.  From what I have read, psychologists, whether or not they agree with religion, recognize that it is important for an individual's emotional health.  I'm pretty sure that whether I was Mormon, Jewish, Catholic etc, my therapists would support that.  

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9 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Do you happen to know what medication was used?  Curious since his original symptoms sound just like what the psychiatrist I worked for described as the possible reason for some of the Chantix suicides; any crazy thought just didn't get filtered out, so "I have a sore throat - I bet bleach will kill the germs" instead of being shut down by the subconscious becomes a semi-conscious action.  (Essentially, we all subconsciously think of solutions like that, but most of us never even know it because the pointless/suicidal thoughts are filtered before the conscious mind is aware of them. For some reason, a few psychoactive drugs can cause problems with the filter. Since we're not used to having to consciously resist the urge, it starts happening in something akin to a trance state.)

Would be interesting to see if anyone has tried whatever your friend was on to counter that side effect.

I don't.  I don't think he even mentioned the name.  Sorry.

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My take on therapists... I haven't met one that helped me.  I went through weeks of sessions and all we did was talk, talk, talk, talk, talk for hours... and then she tells me what I feel and when I tell her that's not it, she made the impression that she didn't believe me or that I'm in denial or whatever.  And then told me I'm manic depressive and I need to try meds.
  Next therapist - same thing, talk talk talk talk and she tells me again what I feel... whatever.

Anyway, what the therapists did do is ask some questions that I haven't thought to ask myself.  But, I figured out how to cope with my "issues" without the therapist.  It's a form of self-mastery that took me years and years and years to develop and even then I still get my "moments".  Very rarely now, but it still happens.

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11 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

People may think that, but that isn't how it works.  You go to a shrink and a good one, IMO, helps you find your own answers.  No one can fix you, that is a job you have to do yourself, but sometimes you need some help.  Neither of my therapists (two) have a God-fearing background, but they have been very respectful of my beliefs.  From what I have read, psychologists, whether or not they agree with religion, recognize that it is important for an individual's emotional health.  I'm pretty sure that whether I was Mormon, Jewish, Catholic etc, my therapists would support that.  

I completely agree with you.  If what you say is/was representative of what most people mean when they say "go see a therapist", I would completely agree.  Unfortunately, "go see a therapist" is thrown out there as if it is like going to see a physical doctor for a broken leg; i.e. the doctor will fix it.  And that's not how it works, the best a therapist can do is give someone the tools to fix themselves.  And my larger point is that it is not necessary to see a therapist to fix oneself, find someone you trust who is willing to talk with you and help you, it could be a parent, a sibling, a friend, etc. and if they are wiling they can help you.

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9 minutes ago, yjacket said:

I completely agree with you.  If what you say is/was representative of what most people mean when they say "go see a therapist", I would completely agree.  Unfortunately, "go see a therapist" is thrown out there as if it is like going to see a physical doctor for a broken leg; i.e. the doctor will fix it.  And that's not how it works, the best a therapist can do is give someone the tools to fix themselves.  And my larger point is that it is not necessary to see a therapist to fix oneself, find someone you trust who is willing to talk with you and help you, it could be a parent, a sibling, a friend, etc. and if they are wiling they can help you.

For the most part we agree. :)  I think for somethings a good friend who will listen while you work things out is all that is needed. There are other situations like trauma, where therapists have some skills and knowledge that "a friend" doesn't.  But for the most part, I'm with you.

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