A Jewish Voice From the Desert

[estradling75]

9 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

I don't know if odd is the right word.  Well, perhaps it is.    I guess I am just trying to understand why the fascination about us.  It's a bit flattering, really.  Is this the case with other Christian goyim as well?

I can't speak for other Christian faiths with any authority but my understanding is probably not. No beyond then end time prophesies that involve Israel as a major component 

[Aish HaTorah]

40 minutes ago, tesuji said:

OK, I really hope I'm not banned for this one, but I wanted ask Aish, have you seen the following movie?

Jewtopia
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0878814/
Netflix link, not sure if it will work for you all: https://www.netflix.com/search/jewtopia?jbv=70287266&jbp=0&jbr=0

I thought it was hilarious, but then I was ashamed at myself for laughing. It has a lot of apparent stereotypes, most of which I had never heard of before.

Then I read some reviews by Jews and they said the movie was just Jews making fun of themselves. So I thought maybe I could relax and go back to finding it hilarious.

Now, I will say that I do not necessarily recommend this movie to LDS people in this forum, because it has some strong sexual references which were way too much for me. I didn't enjoy that part. It's rated NR

But anyway, I wondered if you'd seen the movie and what you thought. You seem like someone who might enjoy the humor. I would have never brought it up if you hadn't insisted you were not easily offended.

Jews making fun of themselves?  You must have been to any one of my family's gatherings.  Especially around Purim.

I have not seen it; I will have to look into that.  Again, you would be hard-pressed to offend me.  Don't mistake me, I certainly have strong moral values and beliefs, it's just that I am not easily shaken by others.

[estradling75]

9 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Why is this a main mission (gathering the tribes), as you say?  I am truly fascinated by this.  Most Jews couldn't care less.  The fewer goyim hanging around means more matzo ball soup for us! 

Well... the main mission is to convert people to Christ.  Because we believe that Christ is the Messiah for Israel then it make sense that the tribes of Israel will hear his voice and turn to him.  Thus the gathering of the tribes is a direct side effect.

 

[Aish HaTorah]

15 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I can't speak for other Christian faiths with any authority but my understanding is probably not. No beyond then end time prophesies that involve Israel as a major component

How utterly mind-blowing.  I am a part of LDS prophesy and I wasn't even aware.

Will there be food?  (Sorry, I am NOT trying to make light of this conversation.  Sarcasm is just an integral - to my mother's dismay - part of my make-up.)

Edited April 15, 2016 by Aish HaTorah

[Aish HaTorah]

10 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Well... the main mission is to convert people to Christ.  Because we believe that Christ is the Messiah for Israel then it make sense that the tribes of Israel will hear his voice and turn to him.  Thus the gathering of the tribes is a direct side effect.

 

That makes sense.

[estradling75]

14 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

How utterly mind-blowing.  I am a part of LDS prophesy and I wasn't even aware.

Will there be food?  (Sorry, I am NOT trying to make light of this conversation.  Sarcasm is just an integral - to my mother's dismay - part of my make-up.)

The L-rd remembers his covenant people.  Even the ones that are otherwise lost

[LeSellers]

21 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

I don't know if odd is the right word.  Well, perhaps it is.    I guess I am just trying to understand why the fascination about us.  It's a bit flattering, really.  Is this the case with other Christian goyim as well?

Since we see ourselves as Israelites (I'm Ephraim), our cousins in Judah and Zebulon, Reuben and Issachar, are important to us. The gentiles (most of whom have some Israelite blood, no matter what they think) aren't as interesting (at least to me) because they have largely forgotten and don't care about their Abrahamic ancestors and heritage.

Lehi

[tesuji]

OK, here's a good quote about Mormon doctrine on being adopted into Israel. It's about what Mormons call the Abrahamic Covenant, which is of core, essential importance in our doctrine:

Quote

Ask the young women to read Abraham 2:8–11 to learn some of the promises the Lord made to Abraham.

What are some of the blessings the Lord promised to Abraham?
Explain that the Lord promised Abraham that his posterity would always have three very important blessings available to them. List these blessings on the chalkboard as shown.

Chalkboard

The House of Israel

Abraham and his posterity may always have—

1. The blessings of the gospel.
2. The blessings of the priesthood.
3. The blessings of eternal life.

Teacher presentation

Explain that we receive the blessings promised to Abraham through his posterity. Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac was the father of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. Jacob, or Israel, had twelve sons, and his descendants became known as the house of Israel.

We become members of the house of Israel by being born as literal descendants of Israel or by being adopted. A person who is not a literal descendant of Israel is adopted into the house of Israel when he is baptized. Members of the Church learn about their lineage in the house of Israel when they receive their patriarchal blessings.

--from the official manual for Young Women's class on Sunday

https://www.lds.org/manual/young-women-manual-3/learning-about-family-history-and-temple-work/lesson-15-blessings-of-the-house-of-israel?lang=eng

The verse from the Book of Abraham is Abraham 2:8–11"

Quote

 8 My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.

 9 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee above measure, and make thy name great among all nations, and thou shalt be a blessing unto thy seed after thee, that in their hands they shall bear this ministry and Priesthood unto all nations;

 10 And I will bless them through thy name; for as many as receive this Gospel shall be called after thy name, and shall be accounted thy seed, and shall rise up and bless thee, as their father;

 11 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal.

The Book of Abraham is a revelation from the prophet Joseph Smith, described as follows:

Quote

A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.

There's some controversy about what is meant by "translation" but, people, please start another thread if you must discuss that.

[tesuji]

OK, here's a good quote (from an official class teacher's manual) about Mormon doctrine on being adopted into Israel. It's about what Mormons call the Abrahamic Covenant, which is of core, essential importance in our doctrine:

Quote

Ask the young women to read Abraham 2:8–11 to learn some of the promises the Lord made to Abraham.

What are some of the blessings the Lord promised to Abraham?
Explain that the Lord promised Abraham that his posterity would always have three very important blessings available to them. List these blessings on the chalkboard as shown.

Chalkboard

The House of Israel

Abraham and his posterity may always have—

1. The blessings of the gospel.
2. The blessings of the priesthood.
3. The blessings of eternal life.

Teacher presentation

Explain that we receive the blessings promised to Abraham through his posterity. Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac was the father of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. Jacob, or Israel, had twelve sons, and his descendants became known as the house of Israel.

We become members of the house of Israel by being born as literal descendants of Israel or by being adopted. A person who is not a literal descendant of Israel is adopted into the house of Israel when he is baptized. Members of the Church learn about their lineage in the house of Israel when they receive their patriarchal blessings.

--from the official manual for Young Women's class on Sunday

https://www.lds.org/manual/young-women-manual-3/learning-about-family-history-and-temple-work/lesson-15-blessings-of-the-house-of-israel?lang=eng

The verse from the Book of Abraham is Abraham 2:8–11:

Quote

 8 My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.

 9 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee above measure, and make thy name great among all nations, and thou shalt be a blessing unto thy seed after thee, that in their hands they shall bear this ministry and Priesthood unto all nations;

 10 And I will bless them through thy name; for as many as receive this Gospel shall be called after thy name, and shall be accounted thy seed, and shall rise up and bless thee, as their father;

 11 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/2.8-11?lang=eng

The Book of Abraham is a revelation from the prophet Joseph Smith, described as follows:

Quote

A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.

There's some controversy about what is meant by "translation" but, people, please start another thread if you must discuss that.

Edited April 15, 2016 by tesuji

[LeSellers]

36 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Will there be food?  (Sorry, I am NOT trying to make light of this conversation.  Sarcasm is just an integral - to my mother's dismay - part of my make-up.)

Ooooooh, yes!

That's what we have the Relief Society for. 

Lehi

Edited April 15, 2016 by LeSellers

[tesuji]

(apologies for the double post again - not sure why it happens)

[Aish HaTorah]

9 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Ooooooh, yes!

That's what we have the Relief society for. 

Lehi

I assume that is an actual society? 

[estradling75]

10 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

I assume that is an actual society? 

It the organizational body for the female members of the LDS church...   The males are in priesthood groups

 

[LeSellers]

19 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

I assume [the Relief Society] is an actual society? 

The oldest and one of the largest women's organizations in the world. Founded in 1842 (aIr), and has about 6 million members.

Lehi

[zil]

2 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Will there be food?

With the exception of worship services (Sacrament Meeting (weekly, on Sunday); or temple work), it's almost impossible for Mormons to meet together without two things:

1) A 7pm start time

2) Food (desserts, usually)

[Sunday21]

4 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Ooooooh, yes!

That's what we have the Relief Society for. 

Lehi

In my ward, the Relief Society brings the food and the Priesthood cleans up. In Hell, the Priesthood brings the food and the Relief Society cleans up!

[estradling75]

5 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

That makes sense.

Ok now that some context has be supplied in why I am asking... back to the question 

Do the Jew have prophecies or understanding on what roles the tribes (when restored) might play in the L-rds plan?

[Aish HaTorah]

22 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Ok now that some context has be supplied in why I am asking... back to the question 

Do the Jew have prophecies or understanding on what roles the tribes (when restored) might play in the L-rds plan?

Shabbat Shalom.  The short answer is no, there is no real consensus that I have read in any Talmudic writings regarding the roles.  Well, that isn't entirely true.  a few have speculated, but I see that as speculation only.  As we do not have a central governing body, anything outside of Torah is speculative, even the things which were written by well-respected rabbis and Jewish theologians.  The only thing that I have come across over the years resembling an answer is to say that the Jews wish all to have the Light of G-d, no matter their upbringing.

We, of course, are not a proselytizing faith by any means.  In fact, most (if not all) rabbis are strongly encouraged to discourage any would-be converts from taking the process of conversion...at least three times.  If a person is determined, they will be considered and instructed.  Once a person has converted to Judaism, they are considered as strong (or stronger) Jews than those born under the covenant.

Interestingly (and you probably know this), In Bereshit (Genesis) when Abraham is told he will be made the father of many nations, the Hebrew word used for nations there is goyim...i.e. NON-Jews.  In other words, unconditional.  Something to chew on.

We believe G-d's love and plans are for all of His children.  We do not, however, recognize that all people have the same roles to play.  I hope that makes sense.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Aish HaTorah
added a bit o' something

[zil]

15 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Interestingly (and you probably know this), In Bereshit (Genesis) when Abraham is told he will be made the father of many nations, the Hebrew word used for nations there is goyim...i.e. NON-Jews.  In other words, unconditional.  Something to chew on.

That makes sense - directly from Abraham, we have Ishmael (not of the House of Israel, clearly).  Then from Isaac we have Esau (again, obviously, not the House of Israel).  Then Jacob (Israel) and the 12 tribes (plus Joseph's 2 sons and however that shakes out in tribe-counting).  Add to that any unmentioned (by me or the Bible, whichever) sons and daughters Abraham had, and I think you have lots and lots of non-Jews, and non-House-of-Israels.

Edited April 17, 2016 by zil

[LeSellers]

3 hours ago, zil said:

That makes sense - directly from Abraham, we have Ishmael (not of the House of Israel, clearly).  Then from Isaac we have Esau (again, obviously, not the House of Israel).  Then Jacob (Israel) and the 12 tribes (plus Joseph's 2 sons and however that shakes out in tribe-counting).  Add to that any unmentioned (by me or the Bible, whichever) sons and daughters Abraham had, and I think you have lots and lots of non-Jews, and non-House-of-Israels.

And we ought not forget Dinah, Jacob's daughter, raped by Sechem. We know nothing in scripture about her descendants (although there is a tradition that she had a daughter,  Asenath, by Sechem who married Jospeh in Egypt after she'd been adopted by Poti-pherah – http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0011_0_10284.html).

Lehi

Edited April 17, 2016 by LeSellers