For NeverTrumpers: An appeal to not vote Hillary over Trump


anatess2
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Gator,

I'm getting kinda confused.  You condemn the "radical pro-life cause" because it refuses to compromise.  But I don't see you compromising.  Or were you going to vote for Hillary all along?

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6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You might change a few minds online, sure. Will you change the minds of the thousands of others who feel the same way? No. 

But then, I'm not the only one working this.  I can only work within my sphere of influence.

 

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Like how Trumpers wear the Trump jersey? Totally agree. 

Yep.  But, it is more prevalent by a wide margin - there is even statistics that support this - that the NeverTrumpers outnumber the OnlyTrumpers.

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

But then, I'm not the only one working this.  I can only work within my sphere of influence.

I used to think I could change minds too with my sparkling wit, commanding logic and brilliant insights. Than I began to realize that no matter how smart you think you are how, you aren't going to change minds. Could Scalia change the minds of Ginsburg, Stevens, Souter...? No. Best of luck though. 

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In fairness to anatess2, Trump is the nominee, now. There's no more need to strategize about any other possibility. That said, I want to believe all she said about Trump. I suspect she's partially right, and that she's mostly right about HRC. What Trump can do to convince us he'll walk the mostly conservative path is select a semi-conservative VP running mate, and announce some positions in his administration for former candidates, like Cruz and Bush. Those actions, done with graciousness, would go a long way towards winning us who are softcore #Nevertrumpers.

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

It's looking very good with my non-Mormon audience.... most of whom where Cruz supporters.

Social media is bad... but that's all because the majority of the ones I have seen treat politics like a football game - they just want to wear their own jersey.

What I see and hear from my friends and family, only one of whom (besides my mother, who has dementia) thinks Trump is an acceptable choice, is that this is anything but a game. We are distraught, even mournful. We feel somewhat helpless.

I was the biggest Ben Carson supporter out there. I still have his dang sticker stuck to my bumper. As soon as he pulled out, I looked for the next best thing (not sure I ever found it). I have no jersey to wear other than that of the Constitution, and the United States of America as I used to know it. I do not believe that Donald Trump is a safe choice, let alone the best choice, but I do not believe that Hilary Clinton can be trusted. I still hold out that Trump is just  cog in the Clinton machine and this is all the very worst form of Gadianton robbery. Our country has been hijacked. It's a sick feeling.  Our choices are between a puppet and a puppet master. A bully and a crook.  

I understand that you think Trump is the answer. I'd have to be stupid or illiterate not to. That we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're holding on to a jersey, or not taking this seriously. It is so much the opposite.

I can tell you one thing: talking and acting like Trump will not convince people like me that he is the candidate I should stand behind. 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

I used to think I could change minds too with my sparkling wit, commanding logic and brilliant insights. Than I began to realize that no matter how smart you think you are how, you aren't going to change minds. Could Scalia change the minds of Ginsburg, Stevens, Souter...? No. Best of luck though. 

I've worked in political campaigns since I was 3 years old and my dad would put me on the table to give a "discourse" and then sing and dance to entertain the "donors"... there wouldn't be any campaigns if we all think we can't influence people to change their minds.

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Just now, anatess2 said:

I've worked in political campaigns since I was 3 years old and my dad would put me on the table to give a "discourse" and then sing and dance to entertain the "donors"... there wouldn't be any campaigns if we all think we can't influence people to change their minds.

Great! I've also been involved in the system since a young age. That's the cool part. I know how it works too. 
 
You can appeal to the moderate, swing voters-yes. But no, you aren't going to change minds. You have to convince THEM that you are what they want you to be. That has nothing to do with changing minds. 

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7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Gator,

I'm getting kinda confused.  You condemn the "radical pro-life cause" because it refuses to compromise.  But I don't see you compromising.  Or were you going to vote for Hillary all along?

Absolutely fair question, 100%.  

I can play both sides. Right now, I'm totally torn. Will I vote for Trump assented of Hillary? I don't know But reason and logic tend to win out with me in the end. 

Edited by MormonGator
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4 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

What I see and hear from my friends and family, only one of whom (besides my mother, who has dementia) thinks Trump is an acceptable choice, is that this is anything but a game. We are distraught, even mournful. We feel somewhat helpless.

I was the biggest Ben Carson supporter out there. I still have his dang sticker stuck to my bumper. As soon as he pulled out, I looked for the next best thing (not sure I ever found it). I have no jersey to wear other than that of the Constitution, and the United States of America as I used to know it. I do not believe that Donald Trump is a safe choice, let alone the best choice, but I do not believe that Hilary Clinton can be trusted. I still hold out that Trump is just  cog in the Clinton machine and this is all the very worst form of Gadianton robbery. Our country has been hijacked. It's a sick feeling.  Our choices are between a puppet and a puppet master. A bully and a crook.  

I understand that you think Trump is the answer. I'd have to be stupid or illiterate not to. That we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're holding on to a jersey, or not taking this seriously. It is so much the opposite.

I can tell you one thing: talking and acting like Trump will not convince people like me that he is the candidate I should stand behind. 

Okay, let me re-iterate what I actually said:

Social media is bad... but that's all because the majority of the ones I have seen treat politics like a football game - they just want to wear their own jersey.

Social media is used here in reference to the major social media outlets  - Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, Instagram, and the like.

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Right. I'm talking about Facebook conversations. And again, being condescending and assuming that if I disagree I must not understand doesn't accomplish what you're hoping to.

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7 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Right. I'm talking about Facebook conversations. And again, being condescending and assuming that if I disagree I must not understand doesn't accomplish what you're hoping to.

Exactly right Eowyn. But it's not an Anatess issue.  

It's a bigger issue. If Trumpers really wanted to "convince" people, they better start now and drop the condescending attitude they almost all seem to have. 

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8 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Right. I'm talking about Facebook conversations. And again, being condescending and assuming that if I disagree I must not understand doesn't accomplish what you're hoping to.

I really have no idea how my statement about the people I interacted with on social media who treat politics like football somehow morphed into "if I disagree I must not understand"...

I have not even said that here at all.  I've never treated any of you like you don't understand because you disagree.  I'm trying to get to persuade you not to vote for Hillary... my objective is, of course, to get you to see what I see regardless of what you already do or don't understand.

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I hope I am wrong, but I think our nation will possibly be torn apart in the future (who knows when).  We are living on borrowed prosperity right now and robbing future generations.  There are too many who wish to glut themselves on the labors of others hands and too many amoral people who think character does not matter and they are free to sin with no consequences. 

On the other side are those who believe in the spirit of the American worker and who wish to live by decent morals.  All the current selected President candidates show what path America has decided to go down.  May the LORD have mercy on those who follow Him and call on His name. 

"Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people."

"And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land."  -- Mosiah 29:26-27

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And see... this is Trump's challenge.

Everything I have said on this thread comes straight from my brain to my computer.  People read it and some think it's condescending.  Now, if I would hire post-writers that will pore through all my posts and edit it to achieve the effect that I wanted, then chances are, I will be successful in not making you think it's condescending.

Hillary has 100 or so campaign handlers that pores over every one of the issues and tells her exactly the words to say, the tone to use, the adjustments to make... everything to achieve the correct effect of electability.  Trump doesn't have any of that.  Manafort tried to "campaign handle" him, the voters saw it a mile away and so Trump made the executive decision to instruct Manafort to forget about "handling".

So the challenge is... how to achieve the balance of still being quintessential Trump that is one of the main reasons people voted for him but now be a general election candidate that sounds more like your everyday politician so as not to be abrasive with the general election crowd.

Edited by anatess2
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42 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Before, the message was "Join us and vote for Trump!  He's awesome!"

Now it's "If you don't join us and vote for Trump it'll be all your fault when Clinton wins."

The blame game has begun.

 

 

Interestingly, a lot of people (including myself for a while there) blamed the evangelicals and the ultra-conservatives for sitting out the 2012 elections causing Romney to lose.  According to Karl Rove yesterday, the exit poll numbers don't support the claim.  But the blame remains...

But then, if people don't vote for Trump, then Clinton will win... fact.  The current status of American politics is that the general population lean left.  That means that if all traditionally blue states vote blue and traditionally red states vote red and we don't count the purples... Blue wins.  Now, Florida will vote Trump.  Ohio will vote Trump.  There are not that many NeverTrump people from the average Kasich voter and Trump almost won Ohio with a record voter turnout.  So that offsets the Blue states.  So, really, Trump will lose if a red state doesn't stay red... like Utah.

 

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Condescending. 

 

"It's time to get serious."

Because we haven't been? Condescending.

 

ugh, my phone cut your quote. Will fix at home.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I hope I am wrong, but I think our nation will possibly be torn apart in the future (who knows when).  We are living on borrowed prosperity right now and robbing future generations.  There are too many who wish to glut themselves on the labors of others hands and too many amoral people who think character does not matter and they are free to sin with no consequences. 

On the other side are those who believe in the spirit of the American worker and who wish to live by decent morals.  All the current selected President candidates show what path America has decided to go down.  May the LORD have mercy on those who follow Him and call on His name. 

"Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people."

"And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land."  -- Mosiah 29:26-27

Yes, I've been thinking this too. The nation is so divided now, and I don't see that changing any time soon. And demagogues are happy to exploit those divisions, and add fuel to them.

Before Christ came to the Nephites they broke up into warring tribes. That's the road we're on, even though I hope we don't get to that end point.

Proud people cannot get along. It's what destroyed the Nephites. Proud people take offense easily, and also give offense to others.

I just hope the church itself can avoid the divisions. We're actually supposed to be heading the other direction - becoming Zion, one in heart. What is that going to take? I partly afraid to find out. In my opinion, Mormons, like many Americans, are too focused on and caught up in fighting about politics, which is a worldly thing and not often very close to what the gospel is about.

Edited by tesuji
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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Wrong. Some are paid speaking fees. 

And even if they wren't paid, they'd lose their sense of self and reason to live. 

That's why poverty will never be "solved"*: too many politicians and bureaucrats depend on it. One whole political party depends on it.
* Politically, that is.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

1) 20 years of rhetoric.  What does he plan on doing with various treaties already in place?  Does he think he can just forget they exist?  At least a 12 point list of things he will do and how he will do it.  "America First" is a great bumper sticker and a great slogan for a campaign to present a great "show".  But what is the substance?  Bluster without substance was exactly how Obama got elected.  I'm looking for a bit more.

2) "His" phase out plan?  I'm talking about "First, I grant a waiver to all 50 states, every individual, and every business of all types."  The thing YOU have to understand is that the Law already gives the President that power without Congressional approval.  But does he or any Trumpkins even know that?  Wait for Paul Ryan and Congress to pass it?  Yeah, right.

1.)  What does a lifelong businessman have to show for foreign policy experience besides rhetoric and a businessman's experience dealing with foreign governments?  And what does a lifelong businessman have access to the nitty gritty of treaties?  Even Congress does not know what is really involved with the Iran Deal.  So, Trump, like any politician running of President, issues a Mission and Vision statement of what he will accomplish.  And a lot of it is summed up here and here.  These will be beefed up, detailed, and negotiated at the convention with the powers of the Republican Party, especially since Trump's position has never been a Republican position - there will be a lot of hemming and hawing over the details of it.  But, from the way Trump has managed his campaign and a lot of his personal profile, he's been known to stick with what he wants to accomplish even if he has to do it a different way than he intended (e.g. helicopter rides at the Iowa State Fair).  The Republican nominee comes out of that convention with the party behind his back united under the Republican Mission and Vision statement on foreign policy with Trump as the standard bearer.  So, let's discuss this in late July and see how it looks like then.

2.) There's no "phase out" plan.  He has been pretty adamant about this statement: " On day one of the Trump Administration, we will ask Congress to immediately deliver a full repeal of Obamacare."   Ryan and McConnell already have the bill for repeal... it's symbolic at this time because Obama will, of course, veto.  The replacement to Obamacare is also in the works in Congress.  Trump met with both Ryan and McConnell a few weeks ago... but this was before he became the presumptive nominee....  to discuss the requirements for the replacement of Obamacare that Trump proposed in his statement among other things.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

1.)  What does a lifelong businessman have to show for foreign policy experience besides rhetoric...

2.) There's no "phase out" plan.  He has been pretty adamant about this statement: " On day one of the Trump Administration, we will ask Congress to immediately deliver a full repeal of Obamacare."   Ryan and McConnell already have the bill for repeal... it's symbolic at this time because Obama will, of course, veto.  The replacement to Obamacare is also in the works in Congress.  Trump met with both Ryan and McConnell a few weeks ago... but this was before he became the presumptive nominee....  to discuss the requirements for the replacement of Obamacare that Trump proposed in his statement among other things.

1) How about if you stop making the excuse that most of what he says is "just for show".  That would help.

2) Replacement?  Yeah, much less onerous I'll bet.  I hope he also promises that he will do NOTHING to replace it.  There was nothing wrong before Obamacare.  We don't need anything new.  We just want what we already had.

The fact that he asks that on "day one" he'll ask Congress to "immediately" deliver... tells me that it is more bluster and rhetoric.  If he even wins, I'll be floored if he actually does this.  He will win my loyalty if he actually follows up with Congress to make sure they do it.

The primary part of Obamacare that I complained about was the individual mandate and the various taxes on medical devices et al.  Any replacement will include such or else it will be worthless to pass.  Therefore, I have NO HOPE that this will turn out well.  Thank you for confirming that.

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