I know I saw a beard around here somewhere...

[Aish HaTorah]

I do recall seeing a few Mormon leaders with great beards back in the day.  Where did they go?  Sorry for my ignorance, but is this now frowned upon?  Is there a rule prohibiting it?

The beards I did see in old photos were quite admirable and would give some rabbis I've known a run for their money.  And Jews don't give up their money easily.

[LeSellers]

18 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

I do recall seeing a few Mormon leaders with great beards back in the day.  Where did they go?  Sorry for my ignorance, but is this now frowned upon?  Is there a rule prohibiting it?

Joseph Smith was clean shaven, possibly because he didn't need to shave. I've never seen any description if his that mentioned a beard. From Brother Brigham (1840s) to George Albert Smith (1950s) all of our senior leaders had beards. Beginning with David O. McKay they have been clean shaven. 

Here's my theory:

David O. McKay and his peers and juniors grew up after WWI. Prior to that war, men usually had beards. But, when the German Army used gas on the battle field, and field masks became a necessity, shaving was imposed on the soldiers. Soldiers, on their return from Europe, were hailed as heroes, and the boys and young men of their age wanted to look like those they admired. "You are what your were when your were ten years old."

In the 60s, a beard was a sign of rebellion (because, I think, soldiers were not permitted to wear them). We Saints are anything but rebellious, so the "prohibition" started then. It may be that beards are no longer rebellion on testosterone, but we still see them as being slightly out-of-bounds.

Men in the Church may wear beards, but not in any significant calling (bishop, etc.), or if he works in the Temple. He may worship in the Temple with a beard, but not as an ordinance worker.

Lehi

Edited April 16, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest MormonGator]

59 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

I do recall seeing a few Mormon leaders with great beards back in the day.  Where did they go?  Sorry for my ignorance, but is this now frowned upon?  Is there a rule prohibiting it?

The beards I did see in old photos were quite admirable and would give some rabbis I've known a run for their money.  And Jews don't give up their money easily.

 LOL! This made me really laugh for some reason. 

Never be sorry for being "ignorant". 1) You aren't, it's just new to you and 2) the person who can admit that they don't know something is much, much wiser than the arrogant know it all. 

PS-I have a beard and mustache and would only shave at gunpoint. I also have hair going down to my mid back! 

[estradling75]

Lack of beard is a cultural thing... not a doctrinal thing.   I think @LeSellers analysis is as accurate as anything as to why.  I would expect that as younger people move in to leadership roles any beards they might have had will start to travel with them

[Aish HaTorah]

17 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

PS-I have a beard and mustache and would only shave at gunpoint. I also have hair going down to my mid back!

Phil Robertson?  Is that you? 

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Lack of beard is a cultural thing... not a doctrinal thing.   I think @LeSellers analysis is as accurate as anything as to why.  I would expect that as younger people move in to leadership roles any beards they might have had will start to travel with them

It's not as gray as his! lol! 

And besides, mine is much more heavy metal than country! 

[Aish HaTorah]

13 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Lack of beard is a cultural thing... not a doctrinal thing.   I think @LeSellers analysis is as accurate as anything as to why.  I would expect that as younger people move in to leadership roles any beards they might have had will start to travel with them

I know I, for one, hate it when I leave my beard at home.

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, Aish HaTorah said:

I know I, for one, hate it when I leave my beard at home.

I know you are joking off my "Bring their beards with them"

But I do know a guy who from Monday to Saturday grows his facial hair and then Sunday morning shaves it all off for church. 

[Aish HaTorah]

9 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I know you are joking off my "Bring their beards with them"

But I do know a guy who from Monday to Saturday grows his facial hair and then Sunday morning shaves it all off for church.

That's impressive!  And itchy, I'd imagine.

[tesuji]

This whole beards and Mormons thing is a peeve of mine, so I have to post.

What is possibly wrong with a beard? And how much does it matter either way?

Jesus had a beard in every painting (no photos  ) I've ever seen of him. Brigham Young had a beard, as well as many prophets.

BYU still prohibits beards, as far as I know. Nonsense.

My strong feeling for this comes from when I was a BYU student. I'd been there many years. One day I saw a young man, I think he even had a U of U t-shirt on, in the library. He had grubby jeans and a beard. I immediately thought, "Sinner!" And then I stopped myself in horror. I had been so conditioned by the clean-cut BYU dress code that I had immediately judged someone by their mere appearance. I'm still horrified by this.

End of rant

Edited April 15, 2016 by tesuji

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, tesuji said:

This whole beards and Mormons thing is a peeve of mine, so I have to post.

What is possibly wrong with a beard, and how much does it matter either way. Jesus had a beard in every painting (no photos  ) I've ever seen of him. Brigham Young had a beard, as well as many prophets.

BYU still prohibits beards, as far as I know. Nonsense.

My strong feeling for this comes from when I was a BYU student. I'd been there many years. One day I saw a young man, I think he even had a U of U t-shirt on, in the library. He had grubby jeans and a beard. I immediately thought, "Sinner!" And then a stopped myself in horror. I had been so conditioned by the clean cut BYU dress code that I had immediately judged someone by their mere appearance. I'm still horrified by this.

End of rant

Tell me about it. I get "the look" all the time. I know why people do it, it's human nature to judge people we aren't used to seeing. I don't have to like it, of course. 

I like to surprise wet-behind-the-ears missionaries fresh from the MTC. They look at me and then are shocked :: shocked!:: that I can quote the Book of Mormon by memory, know more about church history then they do, etc. 

Confession: I shock old  stick in the mud members by doing the same thing. You really shouldn't judge by appearances, but it's human nature.  

[Vort]

13 minutes ago, tesuji said:

He had grubby jeans and a beard. I immediately thought, "Sinner!" And then a stopped myself in horror. I had been so conditioned by the clean cut BYU dress code that I had immediately judged someone by their mere appearance. I'm still horrified by this.

But this is not BYU's fault. I went to BYU for many years -- frankly, a lot longer than I should have -- and I don't recall ever once thinking that someone was a sinner for sporting facial hair. It's a dress and grooming standard, nothing more.

On my mission, the mission president had a summertime rule that the sisters needed to shave their legs and armpits if they wore dressed that revealed, well, their legs or armpits. I doubt anyone had any delusions that body hair was evil, and the country we served in (Italy) was not especially known for scrupulous feminine depilation. But those serving in the mission were expected to conform to grooming standards, which included shaving for both sexes (though of different body parts).

I think it's unfair to blame BYU or its Honor Code for one's personal shortcomings. I see this done often, by many people, and frankly I think it's a copout.

[estradling75]

14 minutes ago, tesuji said:

This whole beards and Mormons thing is a peeve of mine, so I have to post.

What is possibly wrong with a beard? And how much does it matter either way?

Jesus had a beard in every painting (no photos  ) I've ever seen of him. Brigham Young had a beard, as well as many prophets.

BYU still prohibits beards, as far as I know. Nonsense.

My strong feeling for this comes from when I was a BYU student. I'd been there many years. One day I saw a young man, I think he even had a U of U t-shirt on, in the library. He had grubby jeans and a beard. I immediately thought, "Sinner!" And then a stopped myself in horror. I had been so conditioned by the clean cut BYU dress code that I had immediately judged someone by their mere appearance. I'm still horrified by this.

End of rant

If he was a student at BYU who had agreed to the Honor Code and was violating it then yeah there might have been some kind of sin...

However from your description it sounds like he was more likely a visitor who was not under the honor code.

As for your reaction... everyone a some point will make a rash judgement or action.  That is how we learn not to.  You learned it from your reaction to this guy and the BYU honor code... had it not been that way you would have needed to learn it another way, and then your ire would then be pointed at something else

[Just_A_Guy]

Obligatory link to Keepapitchinin's The Best Beards in Mormon History poll.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

13 minutes ago, Vort said:

But this is not BYU's fault. I went to BYU for many years -- frankly, a lot longer than I should have -- and I don't recall ever once thinking that someone was a sinner for sporting facial hair. It's a dress and grooming standard, nothing more.

On my mission, the mission president had a summertime rule that the sisters needed to shave their legs and armpits if they wore dressed that revealed, well, their legs or armpits. I doubt anyone had any delusions that body hair was evil, and the country we served in (Italy) was not especially known for scrupulous feminine depilation. But those serving in the mission were expected to conform to grooming standards, which included shaving for both sexes (though of different body parts).

I think it's unfair to blame BYU or its Honor Code for one's personal shortcomings. I see this done often, by many people, and frankly I think it's a copout.

 It's odd to critique it if you go there. You signed up for it, you have to play by their rules. If you don't want to, then don't go to BYU. 

[tesuji]

My point is that beards are an entirely superficial thing. Outward appearance only. Jesus harshly condemned the Pharisees of his time for thinking outwardness equals righteousness. What matters is your heart and your actions.

And we are a world church. American notions of styles of rebellion from our 1960s era don't translate at all to other cultures. Beards have cultural significance in many countries.

In the Old Testament beards were also a sign of a covenant with God, if I remember correctly.

[tesuji]

14 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 It's odd to critique it if you go there. You signed up for it, you have to play by their rules. If you don't want to, then don't go to BYU. 

Unfortunately, it's a package deal. I think it wouldn't make sense to avoid going to a place that you thought was 99% great and 1% silly. You go for the good. Doesn't mean you have to agree with or condone the silly.

[Vort]

9 minutes ago, tesuji said:

My point is that beards are an entirely superficial thing. Outward appearance only. Jesus harshly condemned the Pharisees of his time for thinking outwardness equals righteousness. What matters is your heart and your actions.

And we are a world church. American notions of styles of rebellion from our 1960s era don't translate at all to other cultures. Beards have cultural significance in many countries.

In the Old Testament beards were also a sign of a covenant with God, if I remember correctly.

I agree with much of what you wrote above, but it's all beside the point. BYU has dress and grooming standards, and they have them for good reason -- reasons with which I happen to agree. But whether I (or you) agree or not is utterly irrelevant. If you go to BYU, you abide the standards, including how you dress and groom yourself. If you don't want to live like that, then don't go to BYU. There is no sin in going to another school. But there is sin in going to a school where you agree to a code of conduct that you fail to uphold.

And as I wrote before, the fact that a person takes a BYU Honor Code point as a reason to pass unrighteous judgment on another person is not BYU's fault. BYU is under no moral mandate to change its rules so that this or that person doesn't misconstrue the rules.

[Guest MormonGator]

13 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Unfortunately, it's a package deal. I think it wouldn't make sense to avoid going to a place that you thought was 99% great and 1% silly. You go for the good. Doesn't mean you have to agree with or condone the silly.

You don't have to like it, but you do have to play by their rules. I am a convert, so I never had to go on a mission. But there is no way I would have. Not because I don't have a strong testimony, but because I don't want to live without my dog, video games, music, etc. Those things aren't allowed on a mission. That's fine, I understand why they aren't allowed. It's the same kind of thing, really. 
 

It's the same kind of thing. If you go to BYU, you sort of have to play their game. There are other fine schools out there where you can just as good an education. That's not knocking BYU, it's a great school. 

Edited April 15, 2016 by MormonGator

[Aish HaTorah]

19 minutes ago, tesuji said:

My point is that beards are an entirely superficial thing. Outward appearance only. Jesus harshly condemned the Pharisees of his time for thinking outwardness equals righteousness. What matters is your heart and your actions.

And we are a world church. American notions of styles of rebellion from our 1960s era don't translate at all to other cultures. Beards have cultural significance in many countries.

In the Old Testament beards were also a sign of a covenant with God, if I remember correctly.

This is why many Jews were forced to "mar the corners of [their] beard" as punishment.  It was utterly humiliating and disrespectful.  Leviticus 19:27.

[tesuji]

I was glad to attend BYU and live by the BYU rules, even though I thought the dress code was a bit silly. It was something some students came up with in the 1950s, I think, and was unfortunately made official policy.

[tesuji]

13 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

This is why many Jews were forced to "mar the corners of [their] beard" as punishment.  It was utterly humiliating and disrespectful.  Leviticus 19:27.

And if I remember rightly, Samson shaving his beard didn't go too well for him either

[Guest MormonGator]

15 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I was glad to attend BYU and live by the BYU rules, even though I thought the dress code was a bit silly. It was something some students came up with in the 1950s, I think, and was unfortunately made official policy.

lol. That's awesome. 

 

[Aish HaTorah]

12 minutes ago, tesuji said:

And if I remember rightly, Samson shaving his beard didn't go too well for him either

Indeed!

[Guest MormonGator]

15 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I was glad to attend BYU and live by the BYU rules, even though I thought the dress code was a bit silly. It was something some students came up with in the 1950s, I think, and was unfortunately made official policy.

lol. That's awesome.