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15 hours ago, LeSellers said:

This is not a challenge. I accept your superior knowledge. Heck, a Jewish mouse has more Hebrew than I. I'm trying to show how I arrived at my definition, nothing more.

* * * *

I have heard it said that Hebrew is basically a poetic language, meaning that each word is a small puzzle, and a sentence a bigger one, puzzles that the hearer/reader must work out for himself. (One reason I like the older English of the AV is that one must struggle with the meaning in the same way — although I'll readily grant it ain't nearly as tough as Hebrew).

 

I love challenges.  And I am certainly no expert, I assure you.  :)  I do know Hebrew very well.  Certainly well enough to know that your last paragraph is spot on.  I would even take it a step further and add that it goes beyond "each word" and is often as specific as "each letter."  When you throw in the numerical value of the letters, anything can happen.  ;)

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Aish,

You are asking great questions, and a lot of them :D

I'll reply for now just to this one:

Quote

...where do Jews stand within the Abrahamic covenant today?  Is it no longer relevant to Jews, specifically, and to all of G-d's children in general?

First, please see my post above about the Abrahamic Covenant, if you haven't. 

Mormons believe to be saved you must be included in this covenant, either because you are a descendant of Abraham or you were adopted into the lineage by baptism.

However, Jew or Gentile, even after you are included, you must still obey God. So disobedient Jews are in just as bad situation as Gentiles who are adopted in but then disobedient.

Edited by tesuji

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10 minutes ago, tesuji said:

However, Jew or Gentile, even after you are included, you must still obey God. So disobedient Jews are in just as bad situation as Gentiles who are adopted in but then disobedient.

Whew!  I am safe, then.  I know I personally fulfill all 613 mitzvot given to Jews (honest :P).  You goyim only have the seven given to Noah to keep.  :D

Thank you for your answer; I appreciate it.

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9 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Whew!  I am safe, then.  I know I personally fulfill all 613 mitzvot given to Jews (honest :P).  You goyim only have the seven given to Noah to keep.  :D

Thank you for your answer; I appreciate it.

Someone will hopefully answer your question about mitzvas. Mormons don't use this term. I Googled it a little, but maybe you could define what you mean for us.

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9 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Whew!  I am safe, then.  I know I personally fulfill all 613 mitzvot given to Jews (honest :P).  You goyim only have the seven given to Noah to keep.  :D

Thank you for your answer; I appreciate it.

Someone will hopefully answer your question about mitzvas. Mormons don't use this term. I Googled it a little, but maybe you could define what you mean for us.

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16 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Whew!  I am safe, then.  I know I personally fulfill all 613 mitzvot given to Jews (honest :P).  You goyim only have the seven given to Noah to keep.  :D

Thank you for your answer; I appreciate it.

All of these guys huh? :lol:

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

It does explain it, thank you.  But it also raises a few more questions...

Excellent questions.  I'll do my best to give you a start. I think each question could take hours or even a college course.  But I can at least give you some food for thought.

While I'm no expert in other covenants in other dispensations, I believe I have some examples to give you a taste of these things.

You probably are aware of the Mormon health code "The Word of Wisdom".  This includes the complete abstinence of alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee, illegal drugs, etc.  The thing is that we don't believe it is inherently evil to partake of such things.  But we have, as part of our covenant today, covenanted to not partake of these things.  But there is nothing wrong with anyone outside our faith having their morning joe, because they have NOT made such a covenant with God.

The 10 commandments are pretty eternal.  We still don't want to commit murder.  We still don't commit adultery or steal.  We still try to keep the Sabbath holy.  But the details of what is included may change.  For instance many Jews will not turn on a light switch during the Sabbath.  While you will observe your faith however you will, an outsider will see that as something that was required anciently because it took a lot of work to build a fire back then (I'm sure you've heard that argument).  Today it is much less effort.  So the specific terms of the covenant may change with the times.  But the eternal principle behind it (that we rest from our worldly labors once a week) is the same.

Sometimes it is because of a change in times.  Sometimes it is just that the Lord has created a new covenant and he wants us to abide by the new covenant to set us apart from other people.

One major part of the covenant is not only to remind us of the related eternal principles.  But it is to separate us from people who are not of our faith.  God's covenant people are always supposed to be a "peculiar people".  The Word of Wisdom is a perfect example.  Many people abstain for health concerns.  To us it is a covenant.  To them it is common sense.  While they will also get certain health benefits from following the restrictions -- just as we do -- only we will receive certain spiritual benefits from obeying the covenant.

What is the difference between eternal principles vs dispensation specific covenants:  The short answer is -- whatever the prophets reveal to us and is confirmed by the Holy Ghost.  There is a much longer answer that covers much more, but that is all I have time for at present.  I believe the examples of keeping the Sabbath and the health codes are something that will begin you thinking down the right road.

I hope that helps.

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42 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Someone will hopefully answer your question about mitzvas. Mormons don't use this term. I Googled it a little, but maybe you could define what you mean for us.

Sorry about that.  Mitzvah = Commandment, Mitzvot = Commandments

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17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Excellent questions.  I'll do my best to give you a start. I think each question could take hours or even a college course.  But I can at least give you some food for thought.

While I'm no expert in other covenants in other dispensations, I believe I have some examples to give you a taste of these things.

You probably are aware of the Mormon health code "The Word of Wisdom".  This includes the complete abstinence of alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee, illegal drugs, etc.  The thing is that we don't believe it is inherently evil to partake of such things.  But we have, as part of our covenant today, covenanted to not partake of these things.  But there is nothing wrong with anyone outside our faith having their morning joe, because they have NOT made such a covenant with God.

The 10 commandments are pretty eternal.  We still don't want to commit murder.  We still don't commit adultery or steal.  We still try to keep the Sabbath holy.  But the details of what is included may change.  For instance many Jews will not turn on a light switch during the Sabbath.  While you will observe your faith however you will, an outsider will see that as something that was required anciently because it took a lot of work to build a fire back then (I'm sure you've heard that argument).  Today it is much less effort.  So the specific terms of the covenant may change with the times.  But the eternal principle behind it (that we rest from our worldly labors once a week) is the same.

Sometimes it is because of a change in times.  Sometimes it is just that the Lord has created a new covenant and he wants us to abide by the new covenant to set us apart from other people.

One major part of the covenant is not only to remind us of the related eternal principles.  But it is to separate us from people who are not of our faith.  God's covenant people are always supposed to be a "peculiar people".  The Word of Wisdom is a perfect example.  Many people abstain for health concerns.  To us it is a covenant.  To them it is common sense.  While they will also get certain health benefits from following the restrictions -- just as we do -- only we will receive certain spiritual benefits from obeying the covenant.

What is the difference between eternal principles vs dispensation specific covenants:  The short answer is -- whatever the prophets reveal to us and is confirmed by the Holy Ghost.  There is a much longer answer that covers much more, but that is all I have time for at present.  I believe the examples of keeping the Sabbath and the health codes are something that will begin you thinking down the right road.

I hope that helps.

Thank you!  So, am I correct that your faith would be considered dispensationalist?  I mean, you have indicated such, but would you feel comfortable using that term to describe yourself to Jews or other Christians?

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22 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Thank you!  So, am I correct that your faith would be considered dispensationalist?  I mean, you have indicated such, but would you feel comfortable using that term to describe yourself to Jews or other Christians?

Usually the label is Restorationist...  I am not sure if many would know what dispensationalist means but yes it would fit

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Mitzvah can also be understood to mean "covenant". Thus, bar/bat mitzvah is son/daughter of the covenant, or the ceremony that proclaims it.

I wonder what "Today, I am a man" means in the (as far as I know) traditional bar mitzvah ceremony/recitation.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers

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20 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I wonder what "Today, I am a man" means in the (as far as I know) the traditional bar mitzvah ceremony/recitation.

When a boy or a girl celebrates his or her bar or bat mitzvah, respectively, he or she is considered an adult within the synagogue and Jewish community at large.  With such a consideration comes additional requirements and expectations for behavior and moral conduct.  This is true within the congregation as well as in family and community life.

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I love languages. I wish I had a better grasp of linguistics.

The "bat" in "bat mitzvah" means "daughter". Think of "Bathsheba", "daughter of Sheba" or "daughter of the covenant", or possibly "seventh daughter". It's a variation of "bar", meaning "son". (I believe "bar" is Aramaic and "ben" is older Hebrew, both meaning "son".)

Language is a miraculous thing. Seriously, I think "miraculous" in its most literal sense is the best word to describe it.

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19 minutes ago, Vort said:

I love languages. I wish I had a better grasp of linguistics.

The "bat" in "bat mitzvah" means "daughter". Think of "Bathsheba", "daughter of Sheba" or "daughter of the covenant", or possibly "seventh daughter". It's a variation of "bar", meaning "son". (I believe "bar" is Aramaic and "ben" is older Hebrew, both meaning "son".)

Language is a miraculous thing. Seriously, I think "miraculous" in its most literal sense is the best word to describe it.

Hebrew is interesting as well in that it is the only language (to my knowledge) to have once been considered a dead language that has been brought back into full use world-wide.

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11 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Hebrew is interesting as well in that it is the only language (to my knowledge) to have once been considered a dead language that has been brought back into full use world-wide.

Resurrection has always been a Hebrew belief. :)

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1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

Mitzvah can also be understood to mean "covenant". Thus, bar/bat mitzvah is son/daughter of the covenant, or the ceremony that proclaims it.

I wonder what "Today, I am a man" means in the (as far as I know) the traditional bar mitzvah ceremony/recitation.

1 hour ago, Aish HaTorah said:

When a boy or a girl celebrates his or her bar or bat mitzvah, respectively, he or she is considered an adult within the synagogue and Jewish community at large.  With such a consideration comes additional requirements and expectations for behavior and moral conduct.  This is true within the congregation as well as in family and community life.

The reason I have wondered for decades is buried in an ancient episode of The Dick Van Dyke Show. One of the characters was a Jewish comedy writer (yeah, I know, the only one in known history). He had never had a Bar Mitzvah, but did when he was in his mid-to-late 40s. They showed the party and he recited the line, "Today, I am a man." Seemed more ritualistic than literal, since he'd been an adult for twenty-plus years.

Lehi

 

Edited by LeSellers

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2 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Thank you!  So, am I correct that your faith would be considered dispensationalist?  I mean, you have indicated such, but would you feel comfortable using that term to describe yourself to Jews or other Christians?

Re: "dispensationalist"

I've just read very briefly about this, on Wikipedia, the Source of All 100% Accurate Knowledge :D

I'm not sure if Mormon belief fits the idea exactly, but it sounds at least similar. We talk all the time about dispensations. 

At various times in history God has officially set up his church, with a leader who had official priesthood authority to do that. It has always been limited in scope (as far as we know) - among a certain group of people, and for a specific time. In all cases it has ended because people rejected the church and its leaders. The Bible tells of many of them - a partial list would include Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus. Also, the people in the Book of Mormon. I can well believe there were others that we don't know about.

Mormons believe that with Joseph Smith in 1930, that God began the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. This time it will not end.

Quote

The Restoration of the gospel in the last days was foretold by prophets in ancient times. The restored gospel is the kingdom of God on earth, the stone cut out of the mountain without hands that would become a great mountain and fill the whole earth, as seen by Daniel (see Daniel 2:34–35, 44–45). It is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which was organized 6 April 1830 in preparation for the Second Coming of the Savior. ...

1. All the keys, power, and authority necessary for our salvation ever bestowed from heaven in all ages have been restored in the dispensation of the fulness of times (see D&C 128:18–21; 27:5–13; 110:11–16; 112:30–32).
2. The knowledge and keys of this dispensation were given first to Joseph Smith (see D&C 110:16; 5:10; 28:2, 6–7).
3. God will reveal things which pertain to this dispensation, “things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world” (D&C 124:41; see also 121:26–32; 128:18; Articles of Faith 1:9).
4. God reserved certain choice spirits to come forth in the dispensation of the fulness of times to build the latter-day kingdom of God (see D&C 138:53–56).

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-23-the-restoration-of-the-gospel-in-the-dispensation-of-the-fulness-of-times?lang=eng

 

Edited by tesuji

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On 4/19/2016 at 0:33 PM, Aish HaTorah said:

Thank you!  So, am I correct that your faith would be considered dispensationalist?  I mean, you have indicated such, but would you feel comfortable using that term to describe yourself to Jews or other Christians?

@Aish HaTorah,

I've just done a read through the Wikipedia article on "Dispensationalism".  After careful consideration, I'd now answer your question with,"Yes, our version of it anyway."

While we consider ourselves a part of Christianity as a whole, we also recognize that we are apart from the rest of Christianity as a whole.  In many ways we do things that are very "Jewish" -- things that "mainstream" Christianity would think is foolish or weird.  I have no personal knowledge to verify how close to Judaism we are.  But I've heard it more than a few times.  And two of my closest friends growing up (Jewish) kept mentioning that when I shared some belief or practice that was particularly LDS.  They were fairly closed mouthed about their own faith.  So, I didn't really get to do a comparison myself. That was unfortunate.

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24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

@Aish HaTorah,

I've just done a read through the Wikipedia article on "Dispensationalism".  After careful consideration, I'd now answer your question with,"Yes, our version of it anyway."

While we consider ourselves a part of Christianity as a whole, we also recognize that we are apart from the rest of Christianity as a whole.  In many ways we do things that are very "Jewish" -- things that "mainstream" Christianity would think is foolish or weird.  I have no personal knowledge to verify how close to Judaism we are.  But I've heard it more than a few times.  And two of my closest friends growing up (Jewish) kept mentioning that when I shared some belief or practice that was particularly LDS.  They were fairly closed mouthed about their own faith.  So, I didn't really get to do a comparison myself. That was unfortunate.

Yeah, I'd love to know in what ways we are more Jewish than traditional Christian. 

The Word of Wisdom, certainly. Although I know many Christians are also against things like alcohol and tobacco.

Temple worship, too.

What else? (I'm too lazy to google it, but maybe I will)

Edited by tesuji

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On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 5:23 PM, Aish HaTorah said:

Thank you for that.  It doesn't sound like it.  Basically, Replacement Theology is a term to describe certain Christian groups that believe that the church (or the New Testament) has replaced Israel in G-d's plan.  In other words, The Old Testament was for G-d's people in ancient times (i.e. Jews) and that the New Testament replaces that for Christians.

Replacement theology is more common in the mainstream, historic churches. I met some Lutheran chaplains that said they grew up with this belief. One still held it, the other had adopted the Evangelical belief that God still has a special covenant with Israel, that Israel remains prominent in end-times prophesy, and that we Christians are "grafted-in" to the seed of Abraham.  I cannot speak to LDS teaching, but encountering Replacement theology helped me understand why some denominations seem so hostile to Israel, while groups like mine continue to hold a particular fondness for the land...still praying for the peace of Jerusalem.

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