Abortion discussions and debates


prisonchaplain
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Abortion debates are difficult, because they go to the heart of our morality, ethics, compassion, and humanity. Sadly, both sides too often despise each other. Pro-choicers are called Nazis and we pro-lifers are religious terrorists. For most, the reality is that pro-lifers care deeply about teen moms, and desire that all babies and single parents would experience safety and provision. Most pro-choicers would be fine with a world in which abortions are rare, so long as desperate mothers have access. If we continue to condemn hurting people and gin up the angry rhetoric, I suspect the extremists will capture both sides, and most people will just withdraw from the discussions.

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The problem with a middle road on abortion is that the baby is dead. He isn't almost dead®, he's totally dead.

And, whatever sacrifice it may entail (speaking as the father of 7 children and grandfather of 33, as well as the eldest with 6 siblings, all of which pregnancies but three I saw in some proximity), that death rarely, and I mean rarely, can be justified by the sacrifice required.

Adoption (speaking as the grandfather of 3 adoptees) is always a better choice, always. Always for the child, always for the father (the forgotten man), always for the mother.

Lehi

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I am not sure what a middle of the road position would be on abortion. If I ever hope to have a part in stopping them, I will do better by respecting those I disagree with, and trying to win them over, rather than through fiery condemnations that only gin up the anger of those who already agree with me.

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8 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I am not sure what a middle of the road position would be on abortion. If I ever hope to have a part in stopping them, I will do better by respecting those I disagree with, and trying to win them over, rather than through fiery condemnations that only gin up the anger of those who already agree with me.

I can't see it either: what else is there except outlawing the practice completely or allowing it completely?

When I said, "The problem with a middle road is …" should have been clear when I said, "the baby is dead": there is no middle road.

I can respect those I disagree with, but if that respect requires that I stop disagreeing (the only response allowed by most pro-abortion supporters), then it is they, not I, who have ended the conversation.

The name calling (climate denier, war on women, greedy capitalist, racist, et cetera, etc., &c.) far more often comes from the Left than the Right (although they do it, too), and the former's goal is to end the discussion. There is one obvious reason for that: their positions and opinions cannot stand scrutiny and reason — it's not supported by fact, it's just emotion. That is true, to a much lesser extent on the Right, but ending the debate is not the Right's point.

So, getting back to the specific topic, how do you respect someone who refuses to consider respecting you unless and until you agree with him?

Lehi

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1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

So, getting back to the specific topic, how do you respect someone who refuses to consider respecting you unless and until you agree with him?

Lehi

You know the answer to this. Let them see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven, always realizing that the only ones who will respond are those who have ears to hear.  We won';t win them all, but we may win some.

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10 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

You know the answer to this. Let them see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven, always realizing that the only ones who will respond are those who have ears to hear.  We won';t win them all, but we may win some.

True enough. But there comes a time when this geezer just gets tired of dealing with them.

Lehi

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Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

. Most pro-choicers would be fine with a world in which abortions are rare, so long as desperate mothers have access. 

My thoughts totally. I don't like abortion. In fact, if you were pregnant I'd argue against it. But I'd still keep it legal with restrictions, in particular with minors and late term. 

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Guest MormonGator
23 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

MG...this is where conversation starts. Why keep it legal for minors--and especially why for late term? 

I'd keep early term abortion legal, even though I don't like the idea. 

I would make it illegal for a minor just because she doesn't have the mental/emotional capacity to make that choice. 

I would make it illegal for a partially born viable baby to be aborted. 
 

Edited by MormonGator
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I suspect that somewhere in the world this same conversation is going on with the same labels, same calls for avoiding condemnation and angry rhetoric, same calls for the other side to show respect first, etc.--a mirror image so to speak.  Reminds me of a particular old episode of Star Trek featuring two characters both painted black and white on opposite sides of their bodies.

Edited by UT.starscoper
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MG, why allow early-term abortions. For example, do you believe the pro-choice side would find us reasonable if we lobbied for a ban on all abortions after the 12th week?  Further, what would be the argument for restricting abortions AFTER the first term, as opposed to BEFORE?  What would be the distinction that would allow us to say  < 12 weeks okay, > weeks no?

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I personally think that abortion is an absolute outrage, one of the greatest evils America has ever tolerated.  I think that ALL abortion should be made illegal, with a narrow exception for if the mother's life is in danger.  I also think that the doctors who perform ANY type of abortions, barring the exception mentioned before, should be sent to prison for first degree murder.  I also salute the State of Texas, my home state, for making it almost impossible to get one.  Looks like there are at least some people with some sense still out there.  Like I said before in other threads, I would love to see Mormons take all that energy the put into opposing gay marriage, and re-focus it on fighting abortion (which I think is far more abominable and evil than gay marriage anyways).

That said, I don't have a problem with people who are pro-choice; we can agree to disagree on that.  I definitely don't have a problem with people who had an abortion in the past but have repented; we all make mistakes, and the atonement is so powerful that it can even cover a heinous sin such as abortion.  As for the unrepentant person who had an abortion, I would try to follow Christ and not judge the sinner; I know there are a lot of people out there who get abortions without thinking through what it means to have one and how it is senselessly slaughtering an innocent baby, but I have to admit I would have a hard time not feeling disdain on some level, the same way I feel anger towards people who abuse children or torture animals.  I do despise doctors who provide abortions; I believe it takes a special type of wickedness, callousness, or sociopathy to perpetuate the slaughter of the unborn and profit from it. 

So there you have it - I absolutely hate the sin of abortion and will fight it until my last breath.  I don't necessarily despise the sinner (those  who partake in abortion), partially because I think that people get abortions out of a combination of ignorance, stupidity, panic, and shortsightedness as opposed to maliciousness.  I do have a problem with abortion providers, though... a big problem, as I feel that abortion providers are truly some of the most evil people in the world.  And that is the most diplomatic as I can be on this subject towards the other side.

Edited by DoctorLemon
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17 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Abortion debates are difficult... Sadly, both sides ... If we continue to condemn hurting people and gin up the angry rhetoric, I suspect the extremists will capture both sides, and most people will just withdraw from the discussions.

I think a remark was made (and then edited back out) with regard to emoting.  Much of what I've read so far seems to demonstrate, Chaplain, how difficult as you truly say debates and attempts at discussion are. It's so much easier to re-entrench to an immovable position and merely rehearse one's anger, outrage, condemnation of the other side than to actually discuss the issue as I've watched you try to do. I wonder whether anyone disposed to dispassionately discussing it with a true desire for understanding would voluntarily enter into a thread.  It might feel like walking into an echo-chamber at best, or a cell filled with one's sworn enemies bent on one's destruction at worst.  Do you think that can be changed?

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Guest MormonGator
39 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

If I know someone disagrees with me strongly 

I don't disagree with you strongly. Abortion is a tired issue, in my view. We've been fighting it since the 70's. I know pro lifers (And I am not referring to you) who can only talk about abortion. Literally. They want a complete ban or nothing else. I ask them, "Well, since a complete ban won't happen in  2016, why don't you fight for reducing the number of abortions instead? You know, do what the left does. Keep pushing until you get your way." They can't understand it. Again, I'm not referring to you as one of them. 

i also think as a guy, my opinion isn't worth much on the issue. 

Edited by MormonGator
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33 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

i also think as a guy, my opinion isn't worth much on the issue [of abortion]. 

And that's a serious problem. I know of no child who has only a mother. Every child has a father, and that father (and men, in general) should have a major say in the question.

There is another reason men should weigh in on the issue: men pay for it. Abortion, in spite of laws to the contrary, is often a matter of taxes and men pay far more taxes than women.

Abortion is not a "women's issue". Abortion is a human issue. Remove men from the discussion, and we end up with a distorted picture and a non-solution.

Lehi

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Guest MormonGator
8 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

And that's a serious problem. I know of no child who has only a mother. Every child has a father, and that father (and men, in general) should have a major say in the question.

There is another reason men should weigh in on the issue: men pay for it. Abortion, in spite of laws to the contrary, is often a matter of taxes and men pay far more taxes than women.

Abortion is not a "women's issue". Abortion is a human issue. Remove men from the discussion, and we end up with a distorted picture and a non-solution.

Lehi

Yup, and I disagree because men don't carry a baby.  That's why I think my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.

And like it or not, the final choice to have an abortion is not is that of the woman. If a man tired to stop her, he'd be arrested. 

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8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yup, and I disagree because men don't carry a baby.  That's why I think my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.

And because of that, the father's wishes should be ignored?

That's sexist to the extreme.

8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

And like it or not, the final choice to have an abortion is not is that of the woman. If a man tired to stop her, he'd be arrested. 

That's only because of the law. And we are talking about changing the law.

Lehi

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Guest MormonGator
19 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

And because of that, the father's wishes should be ignored?

 

No. But I live in reality and in 2016, they will be ignored. 

19 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

That's sexist to the extreme.

 

Actually, I think the scale is tilted towards women in this issue. I'm just a realist. If you want to force a woman to carry the child of a rapist because the rapist suddenly wants to be a doting daddy. Fine. Good luck trying to convince people of that. 
 

19 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

That's only because of the law. And we are talking about changing the law.

 

If you really want to change the law, I wish you nothing but the best. 

Edited by MormonGator
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The problem is the pro-choice side has to ignore very obvious facts, like a father is always biologically involved.  They want you to believe there was no father, and therefor no need to involve him.  And they pretend the baby is not a separate life than the mother.  You simply cannot discuss the topic when the other person cannot acknowledge these two obvious facts.

Edited by bytebear
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MormonGator, I am confident that you know the pro-life view--that once life is conceived it is human, with a God-given right to live. If we're right, you surely see why we shake our heads at the notion that male voices don't count. Imagine how the movement to abolish slavery in this country would have gone if Northern voices did not count, since we could not understand the money invested in slavery, and the realities of agrarian economy.

You may not agree with the single-issue, non-compromisers. Strategically, I agree with you. However, you surely see their reasoning?  They believe human life cannot be negotiated, by lobbying for fewer state-approved killings.

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13 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Yup, and I disagree because men don't carry a baby.  That's why I think my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.

I see it from the opposite perspective.  I think it's precisely because we don't carry the babies that men have an advantage in objectivity.  Not saying at all that guys; opinions should matter more, only that we do have something valuable to contribute to the discussion.

Usually when one is debating this topic with someone they deploy the "guys' opinions don't matter anyway" as a mechanism for shutting down the discussion.  (Of course I know you aren't doing that, Gator.) 

Of course, the results of men being involved can be mixed.  The Supreme Court which legalized abortion was all men...

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Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, unixknight said:

(Of course I know you aren't doing that, Gator.) 

 

Thank you my friend. You are right, I was NOT doing that. In my view the other guy has just as much right as I do to debate/argue/post.  The LAST thing I would say is "You have to be quiet now." 

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