tesuji

Why no Jewish temple?

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The Muslim Dome of the Rock, built around the 7th century A.D., occupies the exact site of the ancient temple.  Razing that structure to build the temple would cause World War III.

But, there is a Jewish group called the Temple Institute that has prepared implements (priestly robes, tables, menorahs, etc) for use in a new temple.  You can see their website, and pictures of the implements, here.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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According to Nibley, assuming I understood him correctly, the pre-Dome of the Rock temple perched atop a steep path. (This was supposed to have been flattened out to accomodate the present massive Islamic structure.) Climbing this path was no mean feat, especially for the aged. To assist them, a handrail of sorts was installed, by which they could hold on and pull themselves up to the temple. This handrail was a rod -- specifically, an iron rod. Interesting if true, and very meaningful to Lehi's vision.

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9 minutes ago, Vort said:

According to Nibley, assuming I understood him correctly, the pre-Dome of the Rock temple perched atop a steep path. (This was supposed to have been flattened out to accomodate the present massive Islamic structure.)

This may very well be true, I don't doubt Br. Nibley's research.

However, Solomon (Shlomo) did the same thing when he built the Temple in the first place. I don't have my Josephus here, so i can't check it, but  the Temple Mount the Jesus knew was a different hilltop from what Mechizedek used. The earth moving and compacting were not trivial jobs, and the area increased by five or ten times its original size. A stone retaining wall (the present wailing wall) held the fill required. Iron ties kept the whole thing from sliding down the mountainside.

Lehi

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15 minutes ago, tesuji said:

OK, buy why not build a temple in other places? And, can there be more than one, rather just one place in the world?

I have read that the Temple site may not be exactly where the Dome of the Rock is. I don't actually believe this, but the guy made a reasonable case for his views.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers

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19 hours ago, tesuji said:

From what I understand, the temple in Jerusalem has always been very important to Jews. Why haven't they built a temple in modern times?

Ask the Muslims.  *sigh*

But seriously, the answer depends upon to whom you ask the question.  (Always my answer, right?)  Generally speaking, certain things are preventing the building of the Third Temple (if the temple in Ezekiel is the one to which you refer), or Beit haMikdash haShlishi.  We cannot build it before the coming of the Mashiach (Messiah) as we understand him.  Only G-d can make the time known for this.

I personally do not see an issue with the Muslim occupation of what we believe to be rightfully ours.  HaShem will take care of it in His own way.  I wouldn't want to be Muslim when that happens.  Some notable scholars argue that the Dome of the Rock is not the actual location of either the First or Second temple, but I personally do not lend credence to any of their arguments, and I have read them thoroughly.  Again, I am not a scholar by any stretch, but I do read carefully and have not found myself convinced in any meaningful way.  (To the Mods...I apologize - mostly sincerely - for disparaging another faith, but I can tell you that I am writing with careful restraint.  There is SO MUCH MORE I could say with regards to Muslims and their claims, but I will try to remain amiable.  Even typing it makes me angry.)

Several organizations (actually, quite a few, although only a few of them get any real attention) have contrived ways to bring to pass the construction of the Third Temple now.  I find their ideas intriguing, but I tend to proceed with caution.  I think without G-d's direction, any such attempt would be doomed to failure before it even begins.  It may well be that the Mashiach will direct the building at a different site entirely within Jerusalem.  Even if the Dome of the Rock suddenly vanished tomorrow, it would still be practically impossible to begin construction, IMO.  Talmudic writing suggests that the temple can only be constructed under direct prophetic guidance, just as the Second Temple was.

Having said all of this, I cannot stress the importance of the building of the temple to us.  It is of utmost importance, and no one has a hope of stopping it from happening when G-d gives the green light.

 

Edited by Aish HaTorah

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10 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Ask the Muslims.  *sigh*

But seriously, the answer depends upon to whom you ask the question.  (Always my answer, right?)  Generally speaking, certain things are preventing the building of the Third Temple (if the temple in Ezekiel is the one to which you refer), or Beit haMikdash haShlishi.  We cannot build it before the coming of the Mashiach (Messiah) as we understand him.  Only G-d can make the time known for this.

I personally do not see an issue with the Muslim occupation of what we believe to be rightfully ours.  HaShem will take care of it is His own way.  I wouldn't want to be Muslim when that happens.  Some notable scholars argue that the Dome of the Rock is not the actual location of either the First or Second temple, but I personally do not lend credence to any of their arguments, and I have read them thoroughly.  Again, I am not a scholar by any stretch, but I do read carefully and have not found myself convinced in any meaningful way.  (To the Mods...I apologize - mostly sincerely - for disparaging another faith, but I can tell you that I am writing with careful restraint.  There is SO MUCH MORE I could say with regards to Muslims and their claims, but I will try to remain amiable.  Even typing it makes me angry.)

Several organizations (actually, quite a few, although only a few of them get any real attention) have contrived ways to bring to pass the construction of the Third Temple now.  I find their ideas intriguing, but I tend to proceed with caution.  I think without G-d's direction, any such attempt would be doomed to failure before it even begins.  It may well be that the Mashiach will direct the building at a different site entirely within Jerusalem.  Even if the Dome of the Rock suddenly vanished tomorrow, it would still be practically impossible to begin construction, IMO.  Talmudic writing suggests that the temple can only be constructed under direct prophetic guidance, just as the Second Temple was.

Having said all of this, I cannot stress the importance of the building of the temple to us.  It is of utmost importance, and no one has a hope of stopping it from happening when G-d gives the green light.

 

Excellent, just what I was wanting to know.

A couple questions:

1) You said, "Talmudic writing suggests that the temple can only be constructed under direct prophetic guidance, just as the Second Temple was."

Tell me more about this prophet. Is this the Messiah? Or can it be someone else? Is there anyone now you would call a prophet?

2) You said, "We cannot build it before the coming of the Mashiach (Messiah) as we understand him."

What is the Jewish understanding of when this Messiah will come? Many Mormons and other Christians think Jesus, our "seconding coming of the first Messiah" will come soon. Do Jews think the coming of their first Messiah is also coming soon?

Of course, "soon" in God's time often seems like a long time to me :D

 

 

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1 hour ago, tesuji said:

Excellent, just what I was wanting to know.

A couple questions:

1) You said, "Talmudic writing suggests that the temple can only be constructed under direct prophetic guidance, just as the Second Temple was."

Tell me more about this prophet. Is this the Messiah? Or can it be someone else? Is there anyone now you would call a prophet?

2) You said, "We cannot build it before the coming of the Mashiach (Messiah) as we understand him."

What is the Jewish understanding of when this Messiah will come? Many Mormons and other Christians think Jesus, our "seconding coming of the first Messiah" will come soon. Do Jews think the coming of their first Messiah is also coming soon?

Of course, "soon" in God's time often seems like a long time to me :D

 

 

1)  With regard to the Second Temple, the Talmud indicates that Zechariah, Haggai, and Malachi were directly supervising the construction.  It has not been implicitly stated who will supervise the construction of the Third Temple, on that it will require similar prophetic oversee.  I (as well as others) believe this to be the Messiah.  It could be someone else.  There is no one currently living that we could consider a prophet in the biblical sense.

2)  Ani Maamin B'emunah Sh'leimahk B'viyat Hamashiach.  V'af al pi sheyitmahmehah im kol zeh achake lo b'chol yom sheyavo.  "I firmly believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he tarries (or has yet to arrive), with all that, I (longingly) await his arrival with each day."  This is Orthodox teaching.  When will he come?  Back to the flavors of Judaism.  Hasidic Jews...I will extend that to less Orthodox, but still Orthodox, Jews also...believe that he will come at any possible moment.  Immediately.  On Fox News tomorrow morning, kind of a thing.

I am a Conservative Jew, and as such, I tend to migrate toward our Statement of Principles, which says, in part:  "Since no one can say for certain what will happen in the Messianic era, each of us is free to fashion personal speculation.  Some of us accept these speculations are literally true, while others understand them as elaborate metaphors.  For the world community, we dream of an age when warefare will be abolished, when justice and compassion will be axioms of all, as it is said in Isaiah 11:  "...the land shall be filled with the knowledge of the L-rd as the waters cover the sea."  For our people, we dream of the ingathering of all Jews to Zion where we can again be masters of our own destiny and express our distinctive genius in every area of our national life.  We affirm Isaiah's prophecy that, "...Torah shall come forth from Zion, the word of the L-rd out of Jerusalem."

MOST Reform Jews that I have met and with whom I have discussed the Messianic Age, argue that there will be no Messiah in actuality.  They view the Messianic Age as a kind of happy, inclusive utopia.  I am not as familiar with their (or Reconstructionist) views other than that.

To further complicate matters, it is widely believed that there will be not one, but TWO Messiahs.  Mashiach ben David (Messiah, son of David) and Mashiach ben Yosef (Messiah, son of Joseph).  He will be of the line of King David and will institute a season of peace.

Edited by Aish HaTorah

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Very interesting. Thank you.

About prophets - When was the last Jewish prophet? Why are there no current modern Jewish prophets (or are there?).

Full disclosure: Mormons talk a lot about the importance of our own current, modern prophets. But I'm not asking you these things in a "gotcha - Mormons have the better religion!" kind of way. I just want to understand how Jews think about this. Obviously, there used to be prophets in the past - so what about now?

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The last nevi'im (prophets) mentioned in our scripture are Malachi, Haggai, and Zechariah (the same as oversaw the building of the Second Temple).  They lived at the end of the Babylonian exile.  The only thing that now remains is the Ruach HaKodesh (The Spirit of Holiness) to speak G-d's word to our minds and hearts.

As to your "gotcha...!" comment.  No worries, friend, I do not mind.  It would be disingenuous of you not to share your beliefs.

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13 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

The last nevi'im (prophets) mentioned in our scripture are Malachi, Haggai, and Zechariah (the same as oversaw the building of the Second Temple).  They lived at the end of the Babylonian exile.  The only thing that now remains is the Ruach HaKodesh (The Spirit of Holiness) to speak G-d's word to our minds and hearts.

As to your "gotcha...!" comment.  No worries, friend, I do not mind.  It would be disingenuous of you not to share your beliefs.

So is it possible or expected there could be modern Jewish prophets? Besides the two Messiahs?

Why are there no modern Jewish prophets?

Thanks for all your info. You are gold mine of info, and I'm very curious :)

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19 minutes ago, tesuji said:

So is it possible or expected there could be modern Jewish prophets? Besides the two Messiahs?

Why are there no modern Jewish prophets?

Thanks for all your info. You are gold mine of info, and I'm very curious :)

That is nice of you.  I feel more like a coal mine.  :)  Why are there no modern Jewish prophets?  I wish I knew.  I'm glad I'm patient.  Moses was slow.  Moses plead on behalf of the Jewish people (after the whole golden calf ordeal) for forty days and forty nights.  Perhaps we are not ready.  Perhaps we have not prayed with great enough fervor.  We are, by nature, a stubborn people.  We were in captivity in Egypt for so very long, and, after we were delivered and after a brief Thanksgiving Day Parade, what did we do?  Complain.  About manna.  And pretty much everything else we could think of.  It isn't enough for someone to tell us to turn to G-d because we are suffering.  We need to have it proven to us that we are, in fact, actually suffering.

Q)  How many Jewish grandmothers does it take to change a lightbulb?

A)  Never mind, I'll just sit here in the dark.

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2 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

For the world community, we dream of an age when warefare will be abolished, when justice and compassion will be axioms of all, as it is said in Isaiah 11:  "...the land shall be filled with the knowledge of the L-rd as the waters cover the sea."  For our people, we dream of the ingathering of all Jews to Zion where we can again be masters of our own destiny and express our distinctive genius in every area of our national life.  We affirm Isaiah's prophecy that, "...Torah shall come forth from Zion, the word of the L-rd out of Jerusalem."

Amen, brother!  (I wish for that, too.)

2 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

To further complicate matters, it is widely believed that there will be not one, but TWO Messiahs.  Mashiach ben David (Messiah, son of David) and Mashiach ben Yosef (Messiah, son of Joseph).  He will be of the line of King David and will institute a season of peace.

Please tell me you know what you just wrote!  Christ was a son of David (by blood, through Mary).  Christ was son of Joseph (as far as the people in Galilee were concerned).

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2 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

To further complicate matters, it is widely believed that there will be not one, but TWO Messiahs.  Mashiach ben David (Messiah, son of David) and Mashiach ben Yosef (Messiah, son of Joseph).  He will be of the line of King David and will institute a season of peace.

I've heard Mormon writers suggest that this is "very interesting!", because our founding prophet Joseph Smith is believed to be of Ephraimite (Joseph) lineage.

By the way, technically speaking, how is it possible that a descendant of David (Judahite) can claim Josephite ancestry?  (Not trying to suggest it isn't possible; I'm just trying to learn how Judaism traces these sorts of ancestry issues.)

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20 minutes ago, zil said:

Amen, brother!  (I wish for that, too.)

Please tell me you know what you just wrote!  Christ was a son of David (by blood, through Mary).  Christ was son of Joseph (as far as the people in Galilee were concerned).

The writers of the New Testament gospels tried to make these connections clear.

But Jews didn't buy it, for some reason. Why not, Aish, if you don't mind such a question?

Edited by tesuji

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4 minutes ago, zil said:

Please tell me you know what you just wrote!  Christ was a son of David (by blood, through Mary).  Christ was son of Joseph (as far as the people in Galilee were concerned).

:o What did I say?

Jewish tradition does, indeed, speak of two Messiahs.  The term Mashiach, when it is not otherwise qualified, always is a reference to Mashiach ben David of the tribe of Judah.  He is the final Messiah who will rule the Messianic age.  Mashiach ben Yosef of the tribe of Ephraim (the son of Joseph), is believed will come first, before the final Messiah, in order to prepare the way.

Mashiach ben Yosef's assigned responsibility (or calling) is to act as a precursor to Mashiach ben David.  He will be responsible to prepare the world for the coming of the final Messiah.  His final role in all this will be to wage war against those who oppress or oppose Israel.  He will seek to destroy the enemies of Israel, often placed under the umbrella term of Edom (or the descendants of Esau).  In the book of Obadiah, it says, "The House of Jacob will be a fire and the House of Joseph a flame, and the House of Esau for stubble."

Here is the rub.  All of this war comes with a price.  The results will be terrible and swift.  It is said that Mashiach ben Yosef will lose his life in battle and the people left behind, as described in Zechariah 12:10:  "...shall mourn him as one mourns for an only child."  This is one of the traditional indications that the coming of the final Messiah, Mashiach ben David, is near.  It is also prophesied the Mashiach ben David will resurrect Mashiach ben Yosef and usher in the age of peace and prosperity for all time.  The people will be saved, the enemy will be defeated, and life will be...well, good.  :)

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1 minute ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Jewish tradition does, indeed, speak of two Messiahs.  The term Mashiach, when it is not otherwise qualified, always is a reference to Mashiach ben David of the tribe of Judah.  He is the final Messiah who will rule the Messianic age.  Mashiach ben Yosef of the tribe of Ephraim (the son of Joseph), is believed will come first, before the final Messiah, in order to prepare the way.

Fascinating.  So a fluke of names.  This explains @Just_A_Guy's reply referencing Joseph Smith.

The prophecies outlined in your post are fascinating.  There are so many parallels with prophecies believed by Mormons.  @tesuji is right - you're a gold mine (not a coal mine, definitely gold).

 

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4 minutes ago, zil said:

@tesuji is right - you're a gold mine (not a coal mine, definitely gold).

Still here.  Still wandering.  Still in awe of G-d's majesty.  Still learning.  Still complaining.  :)

"Let me tell you something that we (Jews) have against Moses. He took us forty years through the desert in order to bring us to the one spot in the Middle East that has no oil."    -Golda Mier

Just sayin'.  :P

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You can perhaps see why some Mormons are so intrigued by this notion of Messiah bin Yosef; because at least superficially Joseph Smith can be argued to fit his bill rather nicely - a descendant of the Biblical Joseph (and a literal son of a father named Joseph), who prepares the way of the Messiah by initiating a "gathering" of Israel and marshals the spiritual (though not military) forces of righteousness against "Idumea" (Edom), or "the world" (D&C 1:36); and dies violently leaving a grieving people. 

Now, I'm not saying this should be convincing to a Jew.  But Mormons are going to find this very interesting indeed.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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13 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 Now, I'm not saying this should be convincing to a Jew.  But Mormons are going to find this very interesting indeed.

Now, let's not get crazy!  HA!  I am glad you find it interesting.  I guess I wasn't aware that you would.  It is nice to find a people who do express interest in this sort of thing.  When you start speaking with most Jews about anything deeper than the kiddy pool, the majority inevitably start to sigh and look at their watches.  "What?  Do I look like a rabbi?"

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2 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Now, let's not get crazy!  HA!  I am glad you find it interesting.  I guess I wasn't aware that you would.  It is nice to find a people who do express interest in this sort of thing. 

If you're interested to see what other Mormons have done with the notion, look here

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8 hours ago, Aish HaTorah said:

But seriously, the answer depends upon to whom you ask the question.  (Always my answer, right?) 

I get the impression that the Jewish faith is as splintered as the Christian faith (even if one doesn't include Mormons in that mix).

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