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51 minutes ago, tesuji said:

This is why I requested that you restate your view for us, more concisely this time.

Rather than my having to re-write the same thing, how about re-reading what I wrote, rather than what you all seem to think I wrote?

First, depression, unless a true mental illness, is what causes suicide. If there is anyone who's committed (or attempted) suicide without being depressed (again, discounting mental illness), I'd like to see the evidence.

Second, depression comes from not feeling confident in one's self. A lack of confidence comes from not having succeeded in doing hard things. In our modern culture (think Petri dish), people are not encouraged, and actively discouraged from trying hard things. It is not necessarily the person's fault he can't do the hard things that create success which creates confidence. If his parent (usually his mother, 'cuz the father ain't been seen since "laying the keel") doesn't let him climb trees (might fall), ride a bike without hands (might hurt himself), or any of the other things that allow children to grow mentally, how is he supposed to grow? And, without youthful success, he becomes less and less likely to take any chances at all. And without taking chances, physical and mental, and spiritual, he will not create the success/confidence that allows him to face difficult things in life. He cannot reflect on past successes (having none) to have the confidence that he will live through and be better for it, the current "crisis". Death (or, in his immediate view, ceasing to exist) is preferable to the suffering he's undergoing.

It hasn't anything to do with his laziness (which I never hinted), but the fact that he was not allowed to try.

It also comes from not understanding that things don't just exist to be had, that someone exerted effort, spent time, used resources to create that thing. And, for him (the first person) to rightfully claim it, he must exchange his own time, effort and resources for it. Welfare creates that misunderstanding because a welfare recipient does not spend time, effort or resources on the things he has. So, to him, things have no value. And often people, himself included (or even highest on the list) have no value, either.

If this is not the case, where does non-clinical depression come from? Why do people who do not suffer from non-clinical depression commit suicide? It's hard to imagine a happy person killing himself. It's hard to conceive of a person who knows he can do hard things because he's done hard things assuming he cannot overcome the current problem.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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Folks, Lehi is my FIL.  He's very much aware of what depression can do to someone.  He was the one who physically held me down as I was on the brink of taking my own life.  He knows.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Folks, Lehi is my FIL.  He's very much aware of what depression can do to someone.  He was the one who physically held me down as I was on the brink of taking my own life.  He knows.

Sorry you felt you had to say that.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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PC asked a discussion question. LeSellers took it up and expressed his opinions. Others then called LeSellers out and castigated him for holding such benighted views. Might have been better for people simply to have expressed their own understandings.

What concerns me is the tendency I see pretty much everywhere, even on this site -- even in myself, at times -- to criticize those opinions that don't agree with our own and to castigate the opinion-holder as well. There is a set of politically allowed opinions that one may take, and if you're outside that range, you are beyond the pale and a legitimate target for ridicule and belittlement. It appears that one beyond-the-pale opinion is any suggestion that those who commit or attempt suicide might be responsible for that act and might have been able to change their own destiny by making different decisions or adopting different viewpoints earlier in their lives. I don't know how much this has influenced the discussion surrounding LeSellers, but it is something I have noticed with increasing frequency. Whether that's because it really is increasing in frequency or just that I've become more sensitive to it, I don't know.

The following thoughts are inspired by the mini-brouhaha with LeSellers, but only tangentially related to it. I admit it's a bit meta to the actual topic, so I apologize if it's a thread derailment; that is not my intent.

We are told that if we withhold our means from someone because we think he has brought his condition on himself, then we stand condemned before God. But note that It is the withholding of our means that condemns us, not the recognition that he brought his condition on himself.

When people are hopeless due to bad decisions they have made, is it bad to point out the cause and effect? If people suffer from mental disease because they have chosen to follow certain trendy beliefs and thought patterns, is it somehow wrong to draw that correlation? If people commit suicide because of life conditions they themselves cultivated by their own decisions, is it evil to mention the fact?

I am not talking about withholding service. I am talking about calling a spade a spade. Obviously, in many cases no such neat line can be drawn between point A and point B, and perhaps in other cases naming the correlation serves no good purpose. But in many cases, it is totally reasonable to suggest that someone's current situation proceeds directly from a decision or set of decisions made earlier. Yet the mention of this fact is often treated as if it falls somewhere between tasteless and Satanic.

I do not believe that all mental disease comes because of sin. But as I look around our world today, I believe that a great deal of the mental and spiritual illness that we see, probably a large majority, does in fact proceed from sinful actions, often those of the sufferer himself/herself and sometimes those of people the sufferer has interacted with. Until we acknowledge this central truth, I do not believe we can effectively deal with it.

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1 hour ago, Eowyn said:

So the lack of charity (not to mention the staggering ignorance) in regards to mental illness and hopelessness is even worse out there than it is in here? <sigh>

I never pronounce judgment on a specific death by suicide. If mental illness is a significant factor, then the LORD knows that. He will do what is good and just.

In my writing and posting I often have a particular point to make. I learned early on to avoid a lot of qualifications and exceptions in persuasive essays, because such distract from the main idea. Occasionally that discipline and approach bring trouble, because some of those exceptions are personal and important to individual readers. Balancing clear, persuasive writing with sensitivity is a true art.

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LeSellers, I apologize for reacting so acutely. It's a very tender subject for me and I feel like I've had to defend the depressed (including myself) on this board to an unexpected degree. I've been having a long stretch of particularly hard "fighting", and I think it's skewed my understanding of what you were trying to say. Now before I get more personal than anyone is comfortable with (too late!), I'll take a few big steps back. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Vort said:

What concerns me is the tendency I see pretty much everywhere, even on this site -- even in myself, at times -- to criticize those opinions that don't agree with our own and to castigate the opinion-holder as well. There is a set of politically allowed opinions that one may take, and if you're outside that range, you are beyond the pale and a legitimate target for ridicule and belittlement. It appears that one beyond-the-pale opinion is any suggestion that those who commit or attempt suicide might be responsible for that act and might have been able to change their own destiny by making different decisions or adopting different viewpoints earlier in their lives. I don't know how much this has influenced the discussion surrounding LeSellers, but it is something I have noticed with increasing frequency. Whether that's because it really is increasing in frequency or just that I've become more sensitive to it, I don't know.

Pretty good advice. I'll try hard to follow it. :)

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1 hour ago, UT.starscoper said:

I'm beginning to believe that I almost always misconstrue your original posts, Chaplain. You are right to observe that most of us have some personal experiences with regard to people who have committed suicide. Those personal experiences often determine to large degree how we feel about it along with or despite what others say (or preach) about it. Are you looking for something from me (as just another reader of your post) that I in all likelihood have overlooked? :)

This post was something I originally preached in my church. I will preach it in chapel this week.  I also posted it on linkedin.  Interestingly, corrections has a new emphasis on psychology and chaplaincy collaborating in suicide prevention. At least one psychologist found my sermon notes to be very positive.  So...as I posted this, I was not looking for anything more than to encourage some, and perhaps get some feedback.

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6 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

This post was something I originally preached in my church. I will preach it in chapel this week.  I also posted it on linkedin.  Interestingly, corrections has a new emphasis on psychology and chaplaincy collaborating in suicide prevention. At least one psychologist found my sermon notes to be very positive.  So...as I posted this, I was not looking for anything more than to encourage some, and perhaps get some feedback.

It's got to be a tough subject to handle, and in those circumstances. FWIW my probable overreaction wasn't directed at your post in any way.

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1 minute ago, Eowyn said:

It's got to be a tough subject to handle, and in those circumstances. FWIW my probable overreaction wasn't directed at your post in any way.

We thought that may help in these discussion is that the instruction we give to general audiences is often meant to plant seeds of resistance. In other words, if I say that suicide is defiance against God in a general sermon, then, down the road, someone depressed may find just enough strength from their faith, saying, "I do not want to defy God, no matter how much I hurt!:"  If I gave that same counsel to someone grieving a suicide by death, or to one who was in the midst of suicidal ideation, my words would come across as cavalier and unsympathetic. 

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1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

Rather than my having to re-write the same thing, how about re-reading what I wrote, rather than what you all seem to think I wrote?

First, depression, unless a true mental illness, is what causes suicide...

Thanks for the clarification.

This is an important subject for me, so that's why I keep going on about it. Also, heaven help anyone reading here who is struggling with this. We owe them good information and clear thinking.

I don't believe that you have fully described depression and suicide, and their causes.

But as you said, we all have our views and our understandings. You are certainly entitled to yours. We all have a lot to learn, of course including myself, so there's never any reason for me to think I've got everything figured out or am entirely right.

My main contribution, I feel, was to post that quote from Elder Ballard. The rest of my posts have been my own mumblings.

Edited by tesuji
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28 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I don't believe that you have fully described depression and suicide, and their causes.

I don't claim to be a clinician. I do think I've used reasonable verbiage, words that laymen would understand. I am not trying to write for professionals (for most of whom I have very little respect: more learned than wise).

Lehi

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1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

Sorry you felt you had to say that.

Lehi

I don't think it's a secret that I've struggled with depression.  I've mentioned it several times on this website.  I've also dropped hints here and there for anyone who cared to put 2 & 2 together about the suicide aspect.  But there it is.  No use hiding it.  And no use making anything more of it than it is either.

This doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with all the points you made.  But on this one topic, I felt you were being unfairly judged.

I also don't think it was fair for you to just button up when several people asked you to clarify yourself.  Your first post was written in such a way that it certainly seemed like you held certain beliefs.  But when others "misinterpreted", you refused to clarify or correct or re-word.

Edited by Guest
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4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

First, I would argue that Elijah expressed what we would call today "suicidal ideation.": That is, he was thinking about it.  His risk would appear to be low.  His plan was to ask God to do it. So, yes, he was tired.  More than that, he was indeed despondent.  Secondly, while I describe the defiance of Saul and Judas in my post, suicide is more complex than one word can describe. Nevertheless, in most cases, there is at least an element of rebellion. Most people believe there is a god, and most of those believe that the god does not approve of death by suicide. So, on some level, in many/most suicides, there is a kind of, "This is the life you dealt me--well, take this."

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Elijah.  I think he was just making a statement that he was "ready" for death rather than a desire to end his own suffering.  But be that as it may...

Regarding Saul and Judas, I tend to think that both of them had gone through some different processes, but ended up at the point where they realized that they had taken a road from which they felt there was no return.  They'd lost everything.  And when people lose everything, they lose it.  In their case I'd certainly agree with you that the road started with sin.  But I believe we can agree that not all suicide starts with the seed of sin.

Suicide: rebellion, sin, pride, physiology, psychology, maturity, circumstances beyond our control, faith (in self or God) honor (in certain societies).

Again I go to Japan as an example of honorable suicide.  The culture itself teaches them that suicide is acceptable to save their own or their family's honor.  It may not make much sense to our western sensibilities, so I'll give an example of Japanese thinking.

Say that I have been successful in business and decide to make one large business deal to grow my business even larger.  I took a calculated risk with the best of intentions.  Then the deal goes south and I owe many people a lot of money.  The society is put together in such a way that no one will ever want to do business with me again.  At least, I would never be able to build up enough to pay off all my debts.

I can continue trying to pay off as much as I can and failing to do so.  But it will then tarnish all my family's business deals as well.  They are all related to the man who could not keep his promises.  But if I take my own life then that sends a message that I was a man who would rather die than not be able to keep his promises.  The family honor remains in tact.  They can continue their lives unfettered by the tarnish I have made.

I know that over the past 10 to 20 years that Japan has tried to change their thinking on "honorable suicide".  But I'm sure there are still remnants of those who think this way.

It really is difficult to categorize all suicides into one or two or even a few causes.  Perhaps in the mind of God there is some over-riding principle that covers it all.  But to us, it may be unwise or at least incomplete, to do so.

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Carborendum, I can agree with all you've said. Still, I am motivated to give anchors for folks to hold onto during those bouts with the temptation to death by suicide. Such teachings are primarily for the mentally healthy. Likewise for parenting classes, health education, etc.  The morbidly obese person does not need a class on diet and exercise. S/he needs an MD and a nutritionist--and perhaps a physical therapist. Likewise, one who is mentally ill may need a psychologist, or even a psychiatrist. For us who are generally healthy, yet face life's tragedies, it is useful to compare the acts of Saul & Judas (the latter of whom Jesus clearly said it would have been better for him had he never been born) against that of Elijah, who wrestled with God (whether he was just thoroughly exhausted, or had true suicidal ideation) rather than take matters into his own hands.

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37 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with all the points you made.  But on this one topic, I felt you were being unfairly judged.

I don't except too much agreement on many thing I feel strongly about. I'm not often persuaded that the common opinion is right and even the uncommon opinion does not usually align with my observations.

As to the second statement, I agree. It turns out that the three most opposed to what they thought I said pretty well agreed that they had read my words through their own filters, reading into them things I did not mean at all.

40 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I also don't think it was fair for you to just button up when several people asked you to clarify yourself

The attacks were obviously biased by prisms I had nothing to do with. Arguing would have accomplished little.

Lehi

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LeSellers,

I'm sorry if you felt that anything I said was an attack. I did not intend it as an attack. I just disagreed with what I thought you were saying, and that you were making definite claims that I did not feel were a full, comprehensive explanation. 

I do have some experience with this subject, and it sounds like you do too. But neither you nor I are professional mental health experts, it appears. It would be better if any explanation or advice about suicide were given by qualified people only. I certainly recommend that any suicidal people seek expert help.

I hope no one here takes anything us laypeople say as definitive. If I had diabetes or cancer, I wouldn't want my main source of information to be untrained people like you and me in a forum.

 

Edited by tesuji
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As I struggle to understand or feel what another human being is experiencing I believe I can imagine despairs so profound that suicide seems like the last glimmer of hope.

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16 minutes ago, tesuji said:

It would be better if any explanation or advice about suicide were given by qualified people only. I certainly recommend that any suicidal people seek expert help.

I offered no advice.

I do echo your recommendation, however.

Lehi

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