Suicide or Life

[LeSellers]

17 minutes ago, UT.starscoper said:

As I struggle to understand or feel what another human being is experiencing I believe I can imagine despairs so profound that suicide seems like the last glimmer of hope.

The only hope suicide offers is the false hope of extinction.

Only when the pain of staying the same exceeds the pain of change, will anyone change. People who commit suicide must, therefore, believe that the pain of their own death will be less than that they are suffering. I believe they are wrong.

Lehi

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

The only hope suicide offers is the false hope of extinction.

Only when the pain of staying the same exceeds the pain of change, will anyone change. People who commit suicide must, therefore, believe that the pain of their own death will be less than that they are suffering. I believe they are wrong.

Lehi

I can imagine a despair so profound that extinction feels preferable (and for the sufferer *feels* is more meaningful than words). Suicide might be deemed as the very change the sufferer seeks. Certainly the sufferer believes (as you say) that the pain will be less than what he currently suffers. I understand (intellectually) that *you* believe *they* are wrong. I suppose they would believe the same about you. But you use the word extinction, and I wonder what you mean. Do you mean absence from this world? If so, then the hope of extinction is certainly *not* false. If you mean eternal extinction, then I can't make sense of the phrase. It sounds like an oxymoron to me. Maybe you mean something else. 

[LeSellers]

3 minutes ago, UT.starscoper said:

you use the word extinction, and I wonder what you mean. Do you mean absence from this world? If so, then the hope of extinction is certainly *not* false. If you mean eternal extinction, then I can't make sense of the phrase. 

I mean "extinction", that is a total destruction, no further existence.

They are wrong because this life is a transition between 100% spirituality and immortality. Even Latter-day  Saints who commit suicide, knowing what we know about existence, must forget this (or, at least, are hoping that the telestial world will be better than their perception of the problems they face before committing self murder).

As to what they feel about their situation, objectively*, they are wrong. They pain they suffer (whether physical or emotional pain) is not more severe than the result of their act.
* I say "objectively" in an eternal sense: God has not given them more than they can handle.

Lehi

[Guest]

Am I mistaken in what I think the doctrine teaches, i.e. that my spirit cannot be destroyed as in no further existence?

Edited April 29, 2016 by UT.starscoper

[tesuji]

8 minutes ago, UT.starscoper said:

I can imagine a despair so profound that extinction feels preferable (and for the sufferer *feels* is more meaningful than words). Suicide might be deemed as the very change the sufferer seeks. Certainly the sufferer believes (as you say) that the pain will be less than what he currently suffers. I understand (intellectually) that *you* believe *they* are wrong. I suppose they would believe the same about you. But you use the word extinction, and I wonder what you mean. Do you mean absence from this world? If so, then the hope of extinction is certainly *not* false. If you mean eternal extinction, then I can't make sense of the phrase. It sounds like an oxymoron to me. Maybe you mean something else. 

I think sometimes it's comparing present suffering with an unknown state after death. You know you are suffering now. Maybe death will be better somehow. But I believe it will not solve anything and that you will be worse off if you kill yourself. It's better to keep seeking the help of the Lord and to endure to the end of your life, as He decides it will end.

Once again, I don't know everything. I don't think I can understand or know how it is for all cases. But I do believe it's best to seek to do God's will. That will give by far the best result in the long term.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, UT.starscoper said:

I can imagine a despair so profound that extinction feels preferable.

Darwin Mayflower:  I'll torture you so slowly you'll think it's a career.

6 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Even Latter-day  Saints who commit suicide, knowing what we know about existence, must forget this (or, at least, are hoping that the telestial world will be better than their perception of the problems they face before committing self murder).

Wasn't the rumor that Joseph Smith once said,"If it were known what just the Telestial Kingdom is like, men would kill themselves just to attain that"?

I have never been able to find such a quote from a reliable source.  But it is still a common rumor.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Guest

[tesuji]

2 minutes ago, UT.starscoper said:

Am I mistaken in what I think the doctrine teaches, i.e. that my spirit cannot be destroyed as in no further existence?

Yes, this is my understanding. Your spirit is immortal. 

 

[LeSellers]

2 minutes ago, UT.starscoper said:

Am I mistaken in what I think the doctrine teaches, i.e. that my spirit cannot be destroyed as in no further existence?

You are correct, but that doesn't apply here. The suicide is not using LDS doctrine to make his decision. It's his distorted view of the universe that makes him imagine that he'll no longer exist.

Lehi

[tesuji]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Wasn't the rumor that Joseph Smith once said,"If it were known what just the Telestial Kingdom is like, men would kill themselves just to attain that"?

I have never been able to find such a quote from a reliable source.  But it is still a common rumor.

Even if it's true, I think you would suffer great remorse at what might have been, once you see what the *Celestial* is like

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

You are correct, but that doesn't apply here. The suicide is not using LDS doctrine to make his decision. It's his distorted view of the universe that makes him imagine that he'll no longer exist.

Lehi

Perhaps your meaning is that the sufferer is not using LDS doctrine the way you would, or not using the doctrine correctly. If I grant that his view is distorted, however, it still doesn't make any difference. The point is what the sufferer feels, and he doesn't feel what you say and he isn't even here to read it anyway. You and I can sign off feeling good about ourselves, our view of the universe, whatever good things we enjoy in our lives. But Im talking about someone who doesn't have those things. Returning to LDS doctrine consider what @tesuji shared with us in Post#4. And consider what @Carborendum shared with us about you. You are his father-in-law. I'll presume that you love him deeply. I'll presume that he knows it. But consider a sufferer who doesn't have that. Consider one who hears the words that God loves him, and he wants so very badly to feel loved. So he envisions being fixed, and hopefully that God that loves him will embrace him, and...and fix him. Because he can't fix himself, and nobody else seems to be able to. Unless somebody comes along and somehow can hold him down until it subsides for a short time and a miracle can happen. 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Yes, this is my understanding. Your spirit is immortal. 

 

Then in what sense can someone tell us that the sufferer's spirit will become extinct, totally destroyed, no further existence...I wonder?

[LeSellers]

4 minutes ago, UT.starscoper said:

Then in what sense can someone tell us that the sufferer's spirit will become extinct, totally destroyed, no further existence...I wonder?

You're missing the point entirely. I can't imagine that you are that obtuse, so you must be doing this on purpose. I'd like to know what it is.

I have not made the claim that their false expectation is true in any sense or universe, only that they believe it.

Lehi

[Guest]

Just now, LeSellers said:

You're missing the point entirely. I can't imagine that you are that obtuse, so you must be doing this on purpose. I'd like to know what it is.

I have not made the claim that their false expectation is true in any sense or universe, only that they believe it.

Lehi

Ouch.

[zil]

2 hours ago, UT.starscoper said:

Then in what sense can someone tell us that the sufferer's spirit will become extinct, totally destroyed, no further existence...I wonder?

Lehi wasn't saying "that the sufferer's spirit will become extinct", he was saying that the sufferer, in his despair, might wish or think or hope that he will become extinct through suicide - that is, not everyone who commits suicide believes in the eternal nature of the spirit (and some who do likely act in spite of the possibility).  I imagine a great many of those who commit suicide would be perfectly happy if extinction were an option.  I also imagine that a firm belief that extinction is NOT an option has kept more than one person from suicide (or from following the initial idea of suicide as an option).

[Guest]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Lehi wasn't saying "that the sufferer's spirit will become extinct", he was saying that the sufferer, in his despair, might wish or think or hope that he will become extinct through suicide

Quite correct.  Remember he said:

5 hours ago, LeSellers said:

The only hope suicide offers is the false hope of extinction.

 

[NeuroTypical]

Dr. Dan Peterson related a story once, I wish I could find the link.  He had (they discovered later) a severe adverse reaction to some medication.  He felt anxiety, then severe anxiety, then growing terror and a horrifying pressure that demanded he take action.  His wife asked him what action, he said he didn't know but he was afraid he'd be finding out soon.  Fortunately, a neighbor was a doctor, who diagnosed the problem and it was taken care of.  Dr. P. said he realized after the fact that he was dangerously close to taking his own life.  

He spoke of the new understanding he's gained of people who have complained of similar experiences - he had always sort of discounted them before - assumed maybe they needed therapy, or even a good kick in the pants to get them moving.  

Anyone out there read that story and save the link?  I'm going off of memory here, and may be getting some details wrong.

Edited April 30, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[pam]

@NeuroTypical  Which Dr. Dan Peterson?  The one from BYU?  If so I can ask him directly for a link.

[NeuroTypical]

Yes indeed.

[NightSG]

On 4/29/2016 at 3:55 PM, UT.starscoper said:

As I struggle to understand or feel what another human being is experiencing I believe I can imagine despairs so profound that suicide seems like the last glimmer of hope.

Be careful with that; working in a mental health facility for a while taught me three things.  The most significant was that Nietzsche was very right, and that abyss is one that can be hard to fully put aside later.

 

(The other two were that acetaminophen overdose is just about the worst possible suicide method that's likely to succeed, and that office romances are tricky to hide when it's a small office.)

[LeSellers]

8 minutes ago, NightSG said:

acetaminophen overdose is just about the worst possible suicide method that's likely to succeed

That's interesting, to say the least.

I know that Tylenol® destroys the liver, but, absent a dose requiring a full gallon of water to swallow, I didn't know it is fatal. What makes it the worst?

Lehi

[NightSG]

On 4/30/2016 at 9:55 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Dr. Dan Peterson related a story once, I wish I could find the link.  He had (they discovered later) a severe adverse reaction to some medication.  He felt anxiety, then severe anxiety, then growing terror and a horrifying pressure that demanded he take action.  His wife asked him what action, he said he didn't know but he was afraid he'd be finding out soon.  Fortunately, a neighbor was a doctor, who diagnosed the problem and it was taken care of.  Dr. P. said he realized after the fact that he was dangerously close to taking his own life.

This is interesting to me, as I've known two people who had such a reaction to Chantix.  One actually did kill himself, after calmly walking to the bathroom and wrapping every towel they owned around his head to keep the mess contained.  The other realized that he had gotten a handgun out, loaded it, and headed for the rock-walled room at the back of the house, entirely on autopilot.  He unloaded the gun, put it in the gun safe and tossed the keys out the back door, then called one of his kids to come find them and hide them until he was sure that stuff was out of his system.  Neither showed any signs of excessive anxiety, and the seemingly incongruous consideration of others in both cases struck me as odd, too.

Later research shows that such consideration is fairly common in planned suicides, (things like doing it in the bathtub or on a concrete floor, or unloading the gun except for one round so it will be safe afterward) which suggests it could be used as an indication of a lack of anxiety.

3 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

That's interesting, to say the least.

I know that Tylenol® destroys the liver, but, absent a dose requiring a full gallon of water to swallow, I didn't know it is fatal. What makes it the worst?

Combination of hepatic and renal failure.  After a certain point (a few hours, IIRC) it's no longer survivable, but can take days of agony before death.  The best they can do at that point is try to keep the patient unconscious.  Both cases I saw were a result of eating an entire large bottle. (150-200 tablets)

[LeSellers]

5 minutes ago, NightSG said:

16 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I know that Tylenol® destroys the liver, but, absent a dose requiring a full gallon of water to swallow, I didn't know it is fatal. What makes it the worst?

Combination of hepatic and renal failure.  After a certain point (a few hours, IIRC) it's no longer survivable, but can take days of agony before death.  The best they can do at that point is try to keep the patient unconscious.  Both cases I saw were a result of eating an entire large bottle. (150-200 tablets)

As someone else here said, "Ouch!!!"

Thanks for the information. Hoping I'll (nor anyone else) never test it.

Lehi

Edited May 2, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest]

3 hours ago, NightSG said:

Combination of hepatic and renal failure.  After a certain point (a few hours, IIRC) it's no longer survivable, but can take days of agony before death.

This is how my dad died. (Not from acetaminophen overdose, but the result of hep C contracted years ago from a blood transplant). It's a horrible, horrible death that I still have nightmares about. 

[NightSG]

2 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

This is how my dad died. (Not from acetaminophen overdose, but the result of hep C contracted years ago from a blood transplant). It's a horrible, horrible death that I still have nightmares about. 

Yes.  It's right up there with burning (Thanks, Senator Birdwell) on my list of ways I hope to not die.

[Traveler]

I often worry that in some discussions – even in some very passionate discussions that often people develop passionate opinions about things of which they know nothing about.  Seldom are actual things that easy to boil down to simple yah or nay resolutions.  Suicide or life may not always be that easy of a choice. 

For me, personally, I enjoy life.  I think I have lived a very rich and full life.  I married well over my head.   My children are all adults that have chosen to marry in the temple.  I served in the military during a time of war, I served in one of the most outstanding and convert producing missions with some of our generation’s greatest missionaries.  I have enjoyed a very rewarding career.  I have served in just about every calling possible in a ward.  I have traveled the world.  I have competed (metaled) in cycling and skiing.  I have done everything I have wanted and dreamed of doing.  I have a little consulting business and ski everyday on my lunch break (I live 15 minutes from one of the world’s best ski resorts).  I will probably work till I die – by choice.

I have also been at the side of many during their last moments of life (including mine and my wife’s parents).  I do not believe that anyone that comes into this life ever leaves to something worse – regardless of what they do in this life.  If I were to be diagnosed with a fatal disease (like lung cancer throughout my body) I do not think I would fight it – rather I would enjoy my passing moments without treatments.  If a terrorists was to point a gun to my head and say are you a Mormon (or Christian)? – I would say yes and care less if they pulled the trigger or not.  I really do not care all that much if I live or die – I do not even care that much who wins the next presidential election – I don't care if I lose all my investments and die with nothing – I have lived with so much - yet I have no real attachment to any “things” centenly not money.  People are all that I care that much about.

I also think that Jesus gave his life – no one took it – he gave it – willingly.  Is willingly giving your life a kind of suicide?  Choosing to die rather than to live?  We all die – does our death matter that much?  I think our life and how we lived means much more than how we die.  I have known families where one has committed what we call suicide.  Some get over it and some don’t.  I know families that have lost members to accidents (one where a new bride {daughter} died a few hours after being wed in the temple).  Death is hard when we make it so.  Likewise life is hard when we make it so.  Maybe I have had it too easy – but I believe death is a door to a much better place – and yet when I pass – I only hope no one feels that I let them down.  I hope they see the good, both in what I have accomplished as well as what I suffered – even what I suffered poorly. 

And I condemn no one – not for how they lived or died.  If G-d has a problem with anyone – it is between them and if for any reason G-d were to consult me – I am fine and think and vote it best that they be forgiven; if there is any possible way to allow it.

 

The Traveler