NightSG

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12 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Wealth and influence is an extremely strong trend.  Or do you think Donald Trump has landed three trophy wives on his natural charm?

"Desirability" in men is not the same thing for all women.

If his trophy wives are the kind you want, then be him.

If you want a different woman, be the different man she finds desirable.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers

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For the man who wants a wife, I believe that Groundhog Day could provide insight rarely found in literature.

Murray's character wants Macdowell's character, first as a conquest, but later (after many iterations) as a wife.

In the end, Phil and Rita are together (warning, not G-Rated), but only because he, Phil, learns to be the man that she wants, i.e., he becomes desirable to her. It takes him the equivalent of years to become that man, but he achieves it because he wants to win her.

In doing so, he becomes essentially the opposite of himself: he learns piano, he learns to serve others, he learns graciousness, and manners and how to treat women (not just the object of his attention). He does not act like the man she wants, he becomes that man. And he must convey the new Phil to Rita in just about twelve hours.

Spoiler:  She finds him desirable, and they go off into the sunrise on 3 Feb as a couple.

Anyone who wants a spouse (or who wants a connection to anyone, lover or friend) must become the person this second person finds desirable in that role.

Lehi

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40 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

It takes him the equivalent of years to become that man, but he achieves it because he wants to win her.

Depending on whether you go by the director's notes or the screenwriter's, it's between 30 and 10,000 years.  (He has effectively ten years of intense study worth of skill in French, piano and ice sculpture that we know of by the end, and we don't really know how much time he spent testing the bounds of the time loop.  The screenwriter had him reading a page from the local library each day to keep track of time, but he finished it.  Think about how long one Bible would take at a page a day, and extrapolate to a small town library.)

Even shooting for the middle of that range, I can safely say I don't expect to live 4.982 years.

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3 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Depending on whether you go by the director's notes or the screenwriter's, it's between 30 and 10,000 years.  (He has effectively ten years of intense study worth of skill in French, piano and ice sculpture that we know of by the end, and we don't really know how much time he spent testing the bounds of the time loop.  The screenwriter had him reading a page from the local library each day to keep track of time, but he finished it.  Think about how long one Bible would take at a page a day, and extrapolate to a small town library.)

Even shooting for the middle of that range, I can safely say I don't expect to live 4.982 years.

Well, you can skip the suicide and French. Ice sculpture is probably optional, as well.

The point remains untainted.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers

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12 minutes ago, NightSG said:

I don't expect to live 4.982 years.

Round up to five, and I'm still more positive than you.

Although how you decided to live 6½ days less than five years is the mystère du jour.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers

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2 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Well, you can skip the suicide and French. Ice sculpture is probably optional, as well.

The suicide is actually the cool part; think of how many things most of us never learn to do because there's a significant chance we won't survive the first failed lesson.  If I knew a screwed up human cannonball or bullet catch attempt would just reset the day, I'd have skills people don't even know exist.

But yeah, French probably still wouldn't be among them unless I got really bored.

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31 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Round up to five, and I'm still more positive than you.

Although how you decided to live 6½ days less than five years is the mystère du jour.

It's the French stuff.  Stupid Europeans had to screw up numbers too.

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I don’t mean to come off as whiny or over dramatic in this entry. 

Quote

Oh Lord how I hate the “no blessing will be denied/withheld/whatever” statement! I doubt any freethinking single LDS woman (or man) likes it or feels particularly comforted by such a thought. 

 

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On 5/2/2016 at 7:21 PM, NightSG said:

I skimmed the article, enough I think to know the gist.

The point is valid, that sometimes Mormons judge others who don't fit the "ideal." Something we should always keep in mind.

However, I totally support the church in teaching the ideal.

And some people need to be pricked, even if they like to kick against those pricks. Especially, in the case of marriage, which is so disparaged by our society, yet so vitally important.

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44 minutes ago, tesuji said:

And some people need to be pricked, even if they like to kick against those pricks. Especially, in the case of marriage, which is so disparaged by our society, yet so vitally important.

And yet we have the constant "why are people leaving?" threads.  In the ~4 years I've been ward SA rep, we've had one divorcee remarry and three leave the Church out of the six I've dealt with.  That's a 50% attrition rate and a 17% "success" rate.  Obviously something needs to change, because sitting back and talking about how those "weak" ones leaving the Church have only themselves to blame isn't making anything better.

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7 minutes ago, NightSG said:

And yet we have the constant "why are people leaving?" threads.  In the ~4 years I've been ward SA rep, we've had one divorcee remarry and three leave the Church out of the six I've dealt with.  That's a 50% attrition rate and a 17% "success" rate.  Obviously something needs to change, because sitting back and talking about how those "weak" ones leaving the Church have only themselves to blame isn't making anything better.

No, I didn't mean "those 'weak' ones leaving the Church have only themselves to blame."

My main points:

1. Mormons shouldn't judge others.

2. The church should teach the ideal.

Quote

 I guess President Harold B. Lee put it best years ago when he said that the gospel is “to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the [comfortable].” -- Elder Holland

 

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I think that must be one of the hardest calls in church leadership, and where the Spirit is especially needed: How high and how fast do you raise the bar?

I have to think the general authorities would love to require a higher standard in the church - that we all should be doing a lot better than we are. But the higher you raise the bar, the more people you will leave behind, who will leave the church. We are all better off in the church, to get it's help in our progress.

Like a mission president trying to deal with a missionary who isn't following the rules. Send him home or keep him in the mission and hope he'll get it eventually?

The thing about marriage though - it's very personal. You keep teaching the ideal, that you should get married. And hope people are trying their best to get, and stay, married. The GAs often in general conference show a lot of compassion toward those who are trying but it isn't working. I also know women who would love to get married but feel they are surrounded by playboys (or chickens, or nerds) who don't want to get married. I was a chicken and a nerd until I got married at 31. I was trying but couldn't make it happen.

Edited by tesuji

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On 5/2/2016 at 4:54 PM, NightSG said:

The screenwriter had him reading a page from the local library each day to keep track of time, but he finished it.  Think about how long one Bible would take at a page a day, and extrapolate to a small town library.)

Got curious about that; looks like Punxsutawney actually has a pretty big library for a town of 5.000, and it's been there since at least 1993.  Couldn't find any claim of their volume count on their website, but a library of similar footprint claims 35,000 volumes and over 10 million pages.  At a page a day, that's just under 27,400 years.  A typical 1,200 page KJV is good for well over 3 years by itself, and presumably even with identical copies on the shelf he would have read them all, (So we should also be assuming he had a much better knowledge of the Bible than probably any of us here, having likely read 7-15 versions several times each, cover to cover, and who knows how many copies of the BoM would also have been there.  Seems some folks could learn a lot from his not being "fixed" by that alone.)  That would be time to master 2,740 separate skills to the level most people achieve in 1-2 skills in a lifetime, even assuming no overlap in the learning, (pairing them well, say, using one's rest time from learning dance to also learn about Italian literature, one could easily double that) learn everything there is to know about the town and it's people, (aided by the daily reset; he could even torture someone's secrets out of them without repercussion) and generally plan out entire days down to the tiniest detail like he did with the armored car robbery.

It would be worth waking up to "I Got you Babe" every day.

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22 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Obviously something needs to change

I agree, and I see it happening, but slowly (cultural change is always slow, except in the negative, unfortunately).  IMO, the change is toward teaching conversion (not just testimony and obedience), and greater self-reliance (esp. spiritual self-reliance).

In other words, I don't think the church needs to stop teaching the ideal, nor change its answer to those who ask, "What if I don't get the ideal in this life?" - because the ideal will never change, and the answer to that question will never change.  But as Satan's power increases, the ideal may be harder to find, and Satan's attacks on those who don't have the ideal may be more intense, so that people's commitment to the gospel needs to be deeper.  I see the church moving farther away from "law of Moses" style rigidity and more toward "you figure out how to apply doctrine and principles in your own life".  Unfortunately, I also see a lot of people whose conversion is shallow, and who don't seem willing to do the very hard work of obtaining and maintaining conversion.  Some have a hard time making the transition from the more rigid "list of rules" or "obedience forced by parents" of youth to the personal conversion and obedience-by-choice of maturity.  So many of us give up the basics (scripture study and prayer) as soon as life gets hard or busy or so comfortable we slip into complacency, or as soon as the parental enforcement is gone.  When that happens, you either give up altogether, or you eventually recognize the loss and come back recommitted, thereby deepening your conversion.

As I mentioned before, I would hope that teachers called in the church would include in their teaching ways to deal with these trials (which didn't seem to be taught when I was a young woman), but this is going to be on individual teachers.  We've already seen General Conference talks related to all these things (not settling for testimony, but continuing toward conversion; spiritual self-reliance; being inclusive and accepting of diversity).  The church has also implemented a plan to help retain return missionaries - but like everything else, its success is contingent on the leaders and participants involved...

Also as mentioned previously in this thread, I think regional culture will influence this - some of the behaviors you describe in your area would offend (and rightfully so) the spirit of every Mormon I know (and I believe offend the Holy Ghost too).

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1 hour ago, tesuji said:

Like a mission president trying to deal with a missionary who isn't following the rules. Send him home or keep him in the mission and hope he'll get it eventually?

Not so much; send a missionary home and he's just done.  He's not going to be under constant pressure to go back out and finish.  Sure he'll have the stigma of having failed to complete a mission, but the (somewhat cold) comfort of knowing there's not really anything else that can be expected of him toward that goal.  Eventually, people just have to get over it.  In the meantime, they're certainly less likely to assume he needs to hear their unsolicited opinion of why he failed and what he should be doing about it.

Fail at marriage and you're treated as inferior unless and until you get another spouse and make it work.

Quote

The GAs often in general conference show a lot of compassion toward those who are trying but it isn't working.

I don't know how Elder Holland or President Monson would act in person if we sat down for lunch at the local cafe and started discussing the midsingles scene.  I consider myself a reasonably good judge of character, and I believe it would absolutely be in line with the concern and wisdom in their Conference talks.  On the other hand, I've also heard the same from stake presidents (not my stake) in the chapel at the start of a singles conference, and then stopped to talk to them in the hall, getting a strong "humoring the unworthy" vibe from the whole conversation. (Not specifically about me, but about all the midsingles.  Once even to the point of openly criticizing the "dork table."  While I couldn't really disagree, I really think he could have done a lot more by going and chatting with them about maybe tossing their leftover suits from the 1990s than by talking about them behind their backs.) 

Then of course, there's the singles conference schedule filled with "plan to be single forever" classes. In the six DFW area singles conferences I can recall going to off the top of my head, I've seen precisely one workshop on early stages of dating, and one on taking it to the next level.  Then we have tons of "cooking for one" type workshops.  That's like AA having a "creative ways to open a beer without a bottle opener" class.  You're not going to fix the problem by dressing it up and making it seem superior.  Then you just create singles who really do want to stay single.

Quote

I also know women who would love to get married but feel they are surrounded by playboys (or chickens, or nerds) who don't want to get married.

It's not just the women who want to get married, but I do think a large part of the problem is that they make that assumption about every man, and to an extent it does become self-fulfilling.  If I take a woman on a few dates, and she's avoiding having it move forward because she assumes I'm averse to commitment, I won't be interested in a commitment with her.

As much as I've posted about first dates, I'm not a big fan.  I want to get to the point where I don't have to wonder if she's going to like my choice of restaurant, or my tie, or whatever.  I want to be able to plan a date that I know she will love because I know enough about her to customize everything about it to her preferences.  Sure, that part should come a while before marriage, but it's certainly a step along the path, and one that can (and should) continue after marriage.

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NightSG,

I agree with everything you say.

I was speaking in very general terms, not about marriage, when I was talking about how much should the church expect from people.

It certainly sounds from your anecdotes that the church, especially local, might have a ways to go when it comes to marriage.

I also think singles should not take what other people say so seriously. Who cares what they think. But it's a sensitive topic for singles, I know. I was very sensitive about it.

I think it was just a miracle that I got married. Maybe my future kids were praying super hard that it would happen, "Heavenly Father, we know he's a total clueless fool, but please, for our sakes...."

Edited by tesuji

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Ahem, if I get a vote...I find the 'no blessing denied' very comforting. I am cool with it and I have planned my life accordingly.

What worries me is that the families in my area have not raised their daughters to earn a living and I am really not kidding! It is a scandal! The young women here take singing and dance lessons. Ditch that and get a math tutor! We can not keep the university and college students in quant subjects and programming in school because there are so many jobs, even for those who are scrapping a pass. Even my friends who are professionals themselves are not raising their daughters to earn a living. They frankly tell me, oh she'll get married...to who? We have a ratio of about 13:1 young women to young men. The young men become inactive and more young women convert. The young women will be lucky to earn minimum wage, even in Canada with free health care, that is a bleak existence. That means no car in a country where cities are very spread out, cheap land, and the bus service is poor. No wonder I practically run a bus service to get people to church. Single adult actives were a nightmare - hardly anyone had a car and we were trying to get people from tiny rural villages. 

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22 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Ahem, if I get a vote...I find the 'no blessing denied' very comforting. I am cool with it and I have planned my life accordingly.

What worries me is that the families in my area have not raised their daughters to earn a living and I am really not kidding! It is a scandal! The young women here take singing and dance lessons. Ditch that and get a math tutor! We can not keep the university and college students in quant subjects and programming in school because there are so many jobs, even for those who are scrapping a pass. Even my friends who are professionals themselves are not raising their daughters to earn a living. They frankly tell me, oh she'll get married...to who? We have a ratio of about 13:1 young women to young men. The young men become inactive and more young women convert. The young women will be lucky to earn minimum wage, even in Canada with free health care, that is a bleak existence. That means no car in a country where cities are very spread out, cheap land, and the bus service is poor. No wonder I practically run a bus service to get people to church. Single adult actives were a nightmare - hardly anyone had a car and we were trying to get people from tiny rural villages. 

I am less disturbed about whether the young women learn "marketable" skills in college* and far more concerned with the apparent lack of interest in learning and intellectual curiosity.  It's as if high school and college-aged people these days only want entertainment or "someone to take care of them for life".  That is terrifying and disappointing to me and in my opinion, it's source is evil (while it may not itself be evil, and I'm not saying these young people are evil, I believe the underlying lack of motivation has its source in evil - if Satan can't get you to do evil, he'll settle for keeping you from doing good - that sort of thing).  I have so many interests I wish I had time to pursue that I simply cannot understand how it is that so many young people seem to have none at all - the "meh" attitude seems shockingly pervasive.

<begin rant>

*In contrast, I'm concerned when adults discourage genuine passion in a young person because it appears to be non-profitable / not marketable.  When a young person is truly passionate about something, it is possible to determine whether they have real determination, the ability and intellect to learn the skills which enable use of the passion, understanding of the reality of what they want, and sufficient talent to keep them going, etc.  But it's more difficult to follow this path, make these determinations, and have faith in the young person's ability to be exceptional, so too many discourage the passion in favor of "playing it safe".  I consider this akin to a sort of imprisonment or death for the person whose passion has been so quashed (don't tell me that real passion will overcome this - a parent's discouraging or condemning words, even casually spoken, have immense power over a young person, and it can take decades to overcome them).

I'll say again (because the "play it safe" attitude is so common and strongly defended) that I'm not advocating blindly following an interest because it seems fun, or "easier than work", or some other flighty, passing reason.  I'm advocating that the initial reaction to a young person's passionate desire to pursue a supposedly "non safe" career, be encouragement and investigation and further education to determine whether the interest and ability are real and truly understood (even if the odds are against fame and fortune).  Preparation for nearly every such career can include preparation for alternate, marketable uses of the skills involved to reduce risk and increase options while one is perfecting one's abilities and pursuing the passion.

</end rant>

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1 hour ago, zil said:

I am less disturbed about whether the young women learn "marketable" skills in college* and far more concerned with the apparent lack of interest in learning and intellectual curiosity.  It's as if high school and college-aged people these days only want entertainment or "someone to take care of them for life".  That is terrifying and disappointing to me and in my opinion, it's source is evil (while it may not itself be evil, and I'm not saying these young people are evil, I believe the underlying lack of motivation has its source in evil - if Satan can't get you to do evil, he'll settle for keeping you from doing good - that sort of thing).  I have so many interests I wish I had time to pursue that I simply cannot understand how it is that so many young people seem to have none at all - the "meh" attitude seems shockingly pervasive.

<begin rant>

*In contrast, I'm concerned when adults discourage genuine passion in a young person because it appears to be non-profitable / not marketable.  When a young person is truly passionate about something, it is possible to determine whether they have real determination, the ability and intellect to learn the skills which enable use of the passion, understanding of the reality of what they want, and sufficient talent to keep them going, etc.  But it's more difficult to follow this path, make these determinations, and have faith in the young person's ability to be exceptional, so too many discourage the passion in favor of "playing it safe".  I consider this akin to a sort of imprisonment or death for the person whose passion has been so quashed (don't tell me that real passion will overcome this - a parent's discouraging or condemning words, even casually spoken, have immense power over a young person, and it can take decades to overcome them).

I'll say again (because the "play it safe" attitude is so common and strongly defended) that I'm not advocating blindly following an interest because it seems fun, or "easier than work", or some other flighty, passing reason.  I'm advocating that the initial reaction to a young person's passionate desire to pursue a supposedly "non safe" career, be encouragement and investigation and further education to determine whether the interest and ability are real and truly understood (even if the odds are against fame and fortune).  Preparation for nearly every such career can include preparation for alternate, marketable uses of the skills involved to reduce risk and increase options while one is perfecting one's abilities and pursuing the passion.

</end rant>

Okay....but could you come on up here and help drive some of these people to church? Just get on the highway and drive straight north. Thanks! Look forward to seeing you. Could you bring some of those folks who complain that they haven't got a calling yet and they have been iin the ward for a whole two weeks? And bring some of those people who are worried that they will never be a bishop because they have undergone chuch discipline while you are at it. Wait you may need a bus!

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On 5/12/2016 at 6:07 PM, tesuji said:

I also think singles should not take what other people say so seriously. Who cares what they think. But it's a sensitive topic for singles, I know. I was very sensitive about it.

The only way one can truly stop caring what other people think is to stop caring about other people at all.  Last I checked, that's not very Christlike.

Sure, He made a lot of people angry with Him.  I'm certain He did care deeply that they thought poorly of Him, though the critical importance of His mission made it necessary to focus on what He could do rather than what anyone thought of Him.

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On 5/2/2016 at 1:46 PM, NightSG said:

Wealth and influence is an extremely strong trend.  Or do you think Donald Trump has landed three trophy wives on his natural charm?

This is an excellent point, for those looking for a trophy wife; which, though most won't admit it, a great number of single men are.

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NightSG,  I'm sorry.  Sorry because I'm sure it is painful to be single, especially when the church emphasizes (rightly) families so much.  It's hard, that's true.  

I've thought about this topic a lot.  I didn't get married until I was 28 (most of my friends married at 18 or 19...so I was sure I was an old maid.)  I know that isn't that same thing, but I think I do understand better than if I had married younger.  I also understand from my own experiences about anger, and the underlying pain (not from being single but another adversity).  Pain is what I see in the article you shared, and what I would guess you feel as well.  

None of us can resolve that pain.  I wish we could.  We have covenanted to bear one another's burdens, so we should at least try to help...I think listening without judging would be a great start, unfortunately that is not human nature. :(  I went through a period where I could have written a blog post like that, and then some (and naturally, I think I would have had even better reason...hubris, you know.)  But here's the thing being angry at the Leaders, at my ward family etc didn't help.  Dealing with pain in this life is often a long journey.  We want instant healing like when the Savior healed the blind, at least I know I did.  I so wanted Him to just make it all go away.  But it doesn't work like that.  

One of the most helpful things I did with my anger was to go to the temple...I didn't go inside, but I walked around outside and I prayed out loud and told God how angry I was with Him (there was no one around).  I didn't hold anything back, I vented and vented.  Afterwards I thought for sure I would be struck by lightening.  Okay, not literally, but I thought God would be displeased, but I was too angry to care anymore.  But you know what?  He wasn't.  I had the most peaceful feeling afterwards.  I felt strongly that He was pleased.  It was as if He was saying, "Good job, you've taken the first step toward returning to me."  That wasn't the end, things weren't miraculously better after that, but it was the first step towards things improving.

So if I could talk to the young lady who wrote that article, I would tell her that instead of writing blog posts and complaining publicly about the Brethren, who can't help her really.  I mean what is it she wants them to say?  I would counsel her to take her pain and anger to the Lord.  Talk to Him directly and privately.  He is the one with the power to help, and heal.  He is the only one who can truly understand what is in her heart. 

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1 hour ago, Eowyn said:

This is an excellent point, for those looking for a trophy wife; which, though most won't admit it, a great number of single men are.

Real sad state of affairs if a great number of single men are just looking for a trophy wife... real sad. A marriage based on superficial thinking is one starting out on a sandy foundation, and you can ask any primary child what type of man that is.

Sister Elaine Dalton YM Gen. Pres. describes Sister Mckay (wife of David O. Mckay)
"There seated next to him was his wife, Emma Ray McKay. Although she did not wear a crown of sparkling diamonds, nor was she seated on a throne, I knew she was a true queen. Her white hair was her crown, and her pure eyes sparkled like jewels. As President and Sister McKay spoke of their family and their life together, their intertwined hands spoke volumes about their love. Joy radiated from their faces. Hers was a beauty that cannot be purchased. It came from years of seeking the best gifts, becoming well educated, seeking knowledge by study and also by faith. It came from years of hard work, of faithfully enduring trials with optimism, trust, strength, and courage. It came from her unwavering devotion and fidelity to her husband, her family, and the Lord."

What happens to a trophy "spouse" relationship over time? Does it stand up if the "supposed" outer beauty is gone? 

 

Edited by NeedleinA

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1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 I would counsel her to take her pain and anger to the Lord.  Talk to Him directly and privately.  He is the one with the power to help, and heal.  He is the only one who can truly understand what is in her heart. 

Beautiful and spot on LP as always.

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