Confusion about Plan of Salvation


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Hello everyone, 

I have grown up in the Mormon church my whole life, but feel the need to get clarification about the Plan of Salvation. 

I'm confused by the concepts of eternal progress and eternal damnation, as I do not fully understand them. My current level of understanding feels those two concepts contradict each other. I've heard that we learn more about the plan of salvation in the temple, but I should point out that I haven't been to the temple yet. 

On one hand, people say the gospel is a gospel of progression, and after dying some will have the opportunity to receive the gospel and live in the celestial kingdom, even if they were not church members or not righteous while here on Earth. 

But the scriptures always talk about eternal damnation, hellfire, and say that misery is eternal. 

So which is it? Will all people receive the opportunity to learn, grow, and progress in the afterlife, or are some people eternally stuck in the lower kingdoms?

Eternal damnation is a very confusing concept for me. Is it true that many people will be stuck where they are, miserable and not able to progress? 

Ive always felt like ALL or a majority of God's children should be able to repent, progress, and turn to God again in the afterlife, even if it takes some people longer than others. Shouldn't the end goal be for ALL or a significant majority of God's children to end up in the Celestial Kingdom? 

Yes, I know everyone has free agency. I have heard many people will choose to reject the gospel even after seeing it in heaven. But I feel like anyone in heaven who chooses they want to accept the gospel and work towards repentance should have that opportunity, right? I've heard many people say that church members who don't live the gospel here on earth won't have the opportunity progress later in heaven. This seems contradictory to the concept of eternal progression. 

Thanks for for helping me to learn more about this gospel concept. 

GoldenOrange

Edited by goldenorange
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On 5/16/2016 at 10:04 PM, goldenorange said:

Hello everyone,

I think it’s pretty relative. “Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.” (D&C 19:11. Thus eternal life is God’s life (D&C 131:1–4; 3 Nephi 12:48).

D&C 88:38 (and surrounding verses) shows that there are also laws for every kingdom, with bounds and conditions. Some kingdoms have laws where no progress in some areas (such as in the continuation of the seeds) is possible, but perhaps allow some progress in some other areas.

Earth needs 1,000 years to progress as far as Kolob does in one day. So relatively speaking, it is “damned” and does not progress. The same relationship is found in the telestial and celestial kingdoms; the former does not progress relative to the latter.

God is Eternal, and the First and the Last. First and Last are in opposition to Eternal, and the Lord reconciles them through the Atonement. So where the Final Judgement / Last Day is God’s Judgement / God’s Day, it is really, really the last and the final say on the kingdom of glory we inhabit, and the progress for which we are eligible.

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@goldenorange

What do you think the different kingdoms are about?  If you believe in progress between kingdoms, is that really a different kingdom? 

What you're trying to do is project the heaven/hell dichotomy onto our theology.  It doesn't work.

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think it’s pretty relative. “Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.” (D&C 19:11. Thus eternal life is God’s life (D&C 131:1–4; 3 Nephi 12:48).

D&C 88:38 (and surrounding verses) shows that there are also laws for every kingdom, with bounds and conditions. Some kingdoms have laws where no progress in some areas (such as in the continuation of the seeds) is possible, but perhaps allow some progress in some other areas.

Yes, I also recommend these scriptures.

Read all of D&C 19, D&C 88 and D&C 76.

"Damned" in Mormon theology means to be stopped in your progress. People who don't achieve the Celestial Kingdom will at some point not be able to progress further.

It is important to remember that everyone must suffer for their sins, if they don't repent. So that will be your hell, according to Mormon theology, if you have to suffer the full weight of your sins. (D&C 19)

God wants us all to progress and receive all possible blessings. However, some people do not want to progress, or do not want to live the laws that would qualify them to receive all the blessings they could.

People's hearts will remain basically the same after they die and pass into the spirit world. My understanding is that it's harder to change without a body.

My understanding is that at some point you are "set" into either the Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom (or outer darkness, God forbid). I think this may happen at resurrection, where you get one of the three types of bodies (see D&C 88). You will not be able to progress to a higher kingdom. I think it's very possible that we don't yet know the full story about how all this happens.

However, I think by the time you are judged, your character and desires will have been fully tested and will be completely known to yourself and to God. It will be clear to everyone in which kingdom you will be most comfortable and happy.

The most important thing is that Jesus alone will judge. His judgement will be perfectly fair and loving and understanding to each person's circumstance.

You can also check out the Gospel Principles manual, the church institute manuals, and lds.org for more info.

 

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On 5/16/2016 at 8:04 PM, goldenorange said:

Is it true that many people will be stuck where they are, miserable and not able to progress? 

No, they will not be miserable for eternity. But they won't be able to progress in significant ways.

On 5/16/2016 at 8:04 PM, goldenorange said:

 I have heard many people will choose to reject the gospel even after seeing it in heaven.  

The gospel they hear in heaven will the same gospel they heard here on earth.

If they never had the gospel formally presented to them in this life, then they will get that opportunity to hear it in the next life.

However, portions of gospel truths are found in most all cultures, so they will have heard some of it already. Alma 29:8: "The Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word."

Plus, everyone has the light of Christ in this life, so they have already chosen to follow or ignore that when they lived in this life.

I have always loved this explanation of how people receive and loose light:

Quote

 36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

 37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.

 38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

 39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.

D&C 93

 

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I've described this before, but for @goldenorange's benefit I'll repeat.  Here's the way I look at the degrees of glory...

OUTER DARKNESS: Imagine being stuck inside a coffin being tortured with unbelievable pain for all eternity.

TELESTIAL KINGDOM: Imagine being 'stuck' as a billionaire on earth forever.  It will be very luxurious and pleasant.  But you'll never be able to develop technology.  You'll never be able to get off the earth.  You'll be trapped by the limits of the single planet and with a knowledge of the Celestial that you once knew, and yet will never attain again.

TERRESTRIAL KINGDOM: Imagine being 'stuck' in this universe forever.  You have access to advanced technology (think beyond Star Trek) that allows you to travel to whatever planet you wish in a matter of minutes.  Any luxury you want is instantly gratified.  And you have the entire universe at your disposal for exploration and variety.  But you are limited by the physical things that you have.  The universe, as big as it is, will never grow and will eventually be spent.  It will never be the Celestial you once knew.

CELESTIAL KINGDOM: Imagine no limits on anything.  You can travel at will.  You can learn anything at will.  You can do anything at will.  You will never stop learning new things.  You will never stop growing in power, glory, and favor with God.  There is more to existence than a single universe.  There is no end to (insert If You Could Hie to Kolob).

It isn't exactly misery.  But things are relative.  We in the US (even the poor) have it pretty good compared to people in other countries.  Yet we keep complaining about things like "being stuck in traffic" or "having a boring job".  It is human nature to become dissatisfied with the familiar.  And even though those in the lower kingdoms really don't have anything to complain about, they will eventually become dissatisfied.

Those in the Celestial don't have that problem.

 

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18 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I've described this before, but for @goldenorange's benefit I'll repeat.  Here's the way I look at the degrees of glory...

OUTER DARKNESS: Imagine being stuck inside a coffin being tortured with unbelievable pain for all eternity.

TELESTIAL KINGDOM: Imagine being 'stuck' as a billionaire on earth forever.  It will be very luxurious and pleasant.  But you'll never be able to develop technology.  You'll never be able to get off the earth.  You'll be trapped by the limits of the single planet and with a knowledge of the Celestial that you once knew, and yet will never attain again.

TERRESTRIAL KINGDOM: Imagine being 'stuck' in this universe forever.  You have access to advanced technology (think beyond Star Trek) that allows you to travel to whatever planet you wish in a matter of minutes.  Any luxury you want is instantly gratified.  And you have the entire universe at your disposal for exploration and variety.  But you are limited by the physical things that you have.  The universe, as big as it is, will never grow and will eventually be spent.  It will never be the Celestial you once knew.

CELESTIAL KINGDOM: Imagine no limits on anything.  You can travel at will.  You can learn anything at will.  You can do anything at will.  You will never stop learning new things.  You will never stop growing in power, glory, and favor with God.  There is more to existence than a single universe.  There is no end to (insert If You Could Hie to Kolob).

It isn't exactly misery.  But things are relative.  We in the US (even the poor) have it pretty good compared to people in other countries.  Yet we keep complaining about things like "being stuck in traffic" or "having a boring job".  It is human nature to become dissatisfied with the familiar.  And even though those in the lower kingdoms really don't have anything to complain about, they will eventually become dissatisfied.

Those in the Celestial don't have that problem.

 

I think you might agree that some of what you have said in this analogy is speculative. We don't know much about these things.

 

However, I offer my own version of heaven:

OUTER DARKNESS: "No video games. Forever. Just hard labor. Without tools."

TELESTIAL KINGDOM: "Play all you want, of video games invented before 2000."

TERRESTRIAL KINGDOM: "Our new video games are more awesome than you can imagine!"

CELESTIAL KINGDOM: "Video games? Oh, that's nothing. Check out this--"

:D

(Warning: This post may contain highly speculative information.)

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The celestial realm is for those who love God with all their heart and who want to serve him and his children forever. They will be granted their desire, and will rule and reign for eternity.

The terrestrial realm is for those good-hearted people who are not valiant in the testimony of Christ. They believe, but their hearts are not in it. They will gain the reward of their desires, and will have a ministry, but not like those who are celestial.

The telestial realm is for those who prefer to remain spiritually immature and stunted. They will have to bow the knee and confess Christ, but they will not have to acknowledge and serve him, as those who inherit greater glories will do. They will remain in their stunted growth, as they desire, and will not be required to do the uncomfortable things necessary for growth.

Some few will not gain a kingdom of glory. These will have rejected Christ and his atonement. Though they may at some point be forced by circumstance to acknowledge the Christ, they will not bow to him or happily receive (or even unhappily receive) his atonement. They glory in their filth, clinging to it with pride and desperation. So they must remain filthy, and a merciful Father has prepared for them a place where they can remain endlessly filthy and comfortably in darkness. We rarely speak of these, because frankly there is not much to say about them. In the New Testament, Jesus referred obliquely and somewhat metaphorically to this as "outer darkness". Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants made the doctrine on the matter much plainer.

I believe the idea of "outer darkness" as a place of torture is nonsense. It is a place of torment -- specifically of self-inflicted torment -- and not of externally inflicted torture. The other kingdoms are places of glory and of light, but we are told almost nothing about them. We are told very little about the celestial kingdom because (I believe) we are not in a position to understand much about it. As Paul teaches, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. And we are told almost nothing about the other kingdoms of glory because they are not to be our focus.

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42 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I think you might agree that some of what you have said in this analogy is speculative. We don't know much about these things.

Or course it is.  As you say, it's an analogy.  None of what I said is in the scriptures.  It's just a way to look at it to keep things in perspective.

@Vort I think we're in the area of semantic argument when you start splitting hairs on the difference between "torture" and "torment".

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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I think we're in the area of semantic argument when you start splitting hairs on the difference between "torture" and "torment".

Possibly. The essence of philosophy is semantics.

Torture is the inflicting of pain on someone as a punishment or for the enjoyment of watching them suffer. While "self-torture" is a possibility, I do not believe those in "outer darkness" are there because they want to punish themselves and gain joy out of watching their own writhings. In such a case, "torture" implies an external inflicter, and that is not God. So either Satan is the inflicter of eternal torture, or the whole idea of "torture" as a descriptive word is misguided. I think the latter.

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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Possibly. The essence of philosophy is semantics.

Torture is the inflicting of pain on someone as a punishment or for the enjoyment of watching them suffer. While "self-torture" is a possibility, I do not believe those in "outer darkness" are there because they want to punish themselves and gain joy out of watching their own writhings. In such a case, "torture" implies an external inflicter, and that is not God. So either Satan is the inflicter of eternal torture, or the whole idea of "torture" as a descriptive word is misguided. I think the latter.

I'll see your comment and raise you a Dictionary.com entry.

Quote

1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as ameans of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

2. a method of inflicting such pain.

3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.

4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.

5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.

You're talking about definitions 1 and 2.  I'm talking abotu all five of  these definitions.  Pleae note #4.

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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You're talking about definitions 1 and 2.  I'm talking abotu all five of  these definitions.  Pleae note #4.

True enough. If you cast your net wide enough, you can say pretty much whatever you want and then argue that it's acceptable. For example, I could say that God is a myth, and I would be literally correct, depending on which definition of "myth" you care to assign to my words. But we would not say that, simply because we know that the word "myth" carries with it a connotation of unreality that we do not intend to associate with belief in God.

Similarly, I believe that the word "torture" carries the connotation of intentional external infliction of agony; note that this is pretty much the traditional Christian (or Muslim) idea of "hell". I reject that connotation, as I assume you do, so I prefer to find a word that does not have the connotations of "torture".

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

I believe the idea of "outer darkness" as a place of torture is nonsense.

I just reread this, and I realized that Carborendum was taking offense at my calling his word usage "nonsense". Sorry about that, Carb. I didn't actually have your usage directly in mind, just the general idea. I did not mean to be so abrupt and impolite.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

I just reread this, and I realized that Carborendum was taking offense at my calling his word usage "nonsense". Sorry about that, Carb. I didn't actually have your usage directly in mind, just the general idea. I did not mean to be so abrupt and impolite.

Not a problem.  Yeah, I caught it.  But didn't take any offense.  Like I said, I recognized a semantic issue and addressed it as such.  

But I don't think that my usage of torture was too broad.  I was thinking of the quite common idea that is expressed in the sentiment:

"That board meeting was sheer torture."  -- maybe not the best example.  But I hope you get my meaning.

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