The appearance of a discrepancy in timing


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New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:51 - 53)
51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 88:94 - 99)
 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned.  And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.
95  And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;
96  And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.
97  And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—
98  They are Christ's, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.
99  And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ's at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.

Paul seems to be saying two things here. One, that we shall all be resurrected at the same time, and two, that the resurrection will occur at the sounding of the last trump.

 
Section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants seems to be saying that the resurrection will be a staged process occurring in several stages, and that it is only after the third trump that the resurrection will be completed – “And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation. (Doctrine and Covenants “| Section 88:100) Furthermore, this third trump is definitely not the last trump as verses 102 – 110 state that there will be at least another 11 trumps after this third trump.

What do you think is the best way to reconcile these apparent differences between 1 Corinthians and Section 88 on the nature and order of the resurrection?

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Accounts of similar, but different, things need not be the same.

The "twinkling" Paul spoke of will happen to those who do not "die", but who translate from mortality to immortality instantaneously. This will happen, as I understand it, during the millennium. For most of us, we will die, we will await the resurrection in due course. Note that Paul says we will not all "sleep". He does not say that none of us will die (obviously inaccurate).

Lehi

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5 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Accounts of similar, but different, things need not be the same.

The "twinkling" Paul spoke of will happen to those who do not "die", but who translate from mortality to immortality instantaneously. This will happen, as I understand it, during the millennium. For most of us, we will die, we will await the resurrection in due course. Note that Paul says we will not all "sleep". He does not say that none of us will die (obviously inaccurate).

Lehi

To me, the use of the word “we” suggests that Paul was talking to, and about, in the first instance, the congregation in front of him at the time. The use of the word “all” suggests to me that he is talking about everybody and not just those who are around during the millennium. And I understood the use of the term “twinkling of an eye” to refer to a time frame, ie, that the resurrection will happen very quickly, even in the twinkling of an eye.

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19 hours ago, askandanswer said:

What do you think is the best way to reconcile these apparent differences between 1 Corinthians and Section 88 on the nature and order of the resurrection?

I think Paul is saying that everyone that is to be resurrected will be resurrected (from verse 53, all corruptible flesh will be made incorruptible) at the time of the sound of last trump; or in other words, the resurrection will be deemed complete for all God’s children at that last resurrection; in other words, some will be resurrected at earlier trumps but none will be resurrected any later than the last trump. When an individual is resurrected, it happens quickly. I think this is consistent with D&C 88.

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2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

To me, the use of the word “we” suggests that Paul was talking to, and about, in the first instance, the congregation in front of him at the time. The use of the word “all” suggests to me that he is talking about everybody and not just those who are around during the millennium. And I understood the use of the term “twinkling of an eye” to refer to a time frame, ie, that the resurrection will happen very quickly, even in the twinkling of an eye.

While Paul was writing to a specific stake (the Corinth Hellas Stake of Zion) he was not necessarily talking about the current members, nor even solely, the members of the Corinth stake. The use of the word "we" isn't even in the text: it's part of the verb (to sleep —κοιμηθησομεθα, the 1 person plural of the future passive, indicative), so there is no way of saying whether Paul was speaking only of the group of Saints in Corinth and him (he wasn't there at the time), or if he meant all the Saints throughout time (my understanding). The evidence tends to my interpretation because, as noted, Paul was not there. He wrote first Corinthians while he was Ephesus — he was not speaking to them in person. The idea that he would write them a letter while he was among them is not creditable.

Further, the "twinkling of an eye" does not describe the resurrection because, whatever amount of time it takes to raise the dead (which could be quasi-instantaneous) he'd describing a change in people who are living, but do not die (or, in his word "sleep"): they will not sleep, but will go from mortality to immortality in that twinkling. Most of us will die, but not all. It is of these he wrote.

Your understanding does not fit either the doctrine of the Church, nor the teachings of rest of the Bible (even Paul's own writings), nor the text and immediate context of 1 Cor 15:50~4. It would be easier to understand if the English punctuation (which is largely a modern invention — the Greeks had about four punctuation marks, we have dozens) were more like this:

Quote

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery (We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye); at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Notice the Greek punctuation in this passage (underlined for convenience):

Quote

51  ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα, 52  ἐν ἀτόμῳ, ἐν ῥιπῇ ὀφθαλμοῦ, ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ σάλπιγγι· σαλπίσει γάρ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι, καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀλλαγησόμεθα.

51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Our punctuation is more sophisticated than what the Hellens used and allows us to communicate more clearly than they did by the written word, yet we can still misunderstand. The same is far more true of Paul and his writings.

We must also not forget that in this passage Paul was not speaking to the Gentile, nor to the heathen: he was speaking to the Saints who had already known the doctrine of the resurrection, but were corrupting it in their apostasy. His letter was not to reveal new doctrine, but to explain what they had heard in the past. To make his point, he did "tell [them] a mystery", that is, for the first time, they heard of transfiguration, when people would not "die", but change form mortality to immortality in the twinkling of an eye.

Finally, we know that many people (not huge numbers, but many) have already been resurrected: Christ, Moroni, Elijah*, Moses*, and others. If the resurrection must, by this interpretation, happen instantaneously, these cases, at least, to not fit.
* In both Elija's and Moses' cases, they didn't die, either, since they were at the Mount of Transfiguration to give Jesus the keys He had entrusted to them to accomplish their mortal labors.

Lehi

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2 hours ago, LeSellers said:

He wrote first Corinthians while he was Ephesus — he was not speaking to them in person. The idea that he would write them a letter while he was among them is not creditable.

Not entirely unlikely that he would write it down either way, though.  Corinth was, by the estimates I've seen, a pretty large city for the time.  One would imagine that without benefit of electronic amplification, they could easily have more members/investigators than would be able to hear a single oration.  Consistency in a personally delivered sermon, then, would dictate either writing it all down beforehand, or having a scribe on hand taking detailed notes.

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12 hours ago, NightSG said:

Not entirely unlikely that [Paul] would write [1 Corinthians] down [whether it was a letter or a conference talk], though.  Corinth was, by the estimates I've seen, a pretty large city for the time.  One would imagine that without benefit of electronic amplification, they could easily have more members/investigators than would be able to hear a single oration.  Consistency in a personally delivered sermon, then, would dictate either writing it all down beforehand, or having a scribe on hand taking detailed notes.

The text of the letter does almost completely eliminate the possibility that it was the transcript of a talk he'd he'd given previously.

First Corinthians was a letter. It was not a transcript. The setting was not at all what you are assuming. What evidence is there that it was a transcript? I've never seen anyone (LDS or not) who shares that position.

Lehi

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17 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Further, the "twinkling of an eye" does not describe the resurrection because, whatever amount of time it takes to raise the dead (which could be quasi-instantaneous) he'd describing a change in people who are living, but do not die (or, in his word "sleep"): they will not sleep, but will go from mortality to immortality in that twinkling. Most of us will die, but not all. It is of these he wrote.

The “twinkling of an eye” seems to be used in all other scripture references for those who become immortal from a) a translated state when their mission is over; b) a righteous mortal state during and after the Millennium:

- 3 Ne. 28: 8, And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

- D&C 43: 32, And he that liveth in righteousness shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and the earth shall pass away so as by fire.

- D&C 63: 51, Wherefore, children shall grow up until they become old; old men shall die; but they shall not sleep in the dust, but they shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

- D&C 101: 31, And when he dies he shall not sleep, that is to say in the earth, but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be caught up, and his rest shall be glorious.

While the mystery Paul is referring to could refer to what happens to those in the translated state (whether he is referring to himself and/or others, but not likely himself considering the way he died), if “we” is not in the text, the context seems to then refer to sleeping, changing and resurrecting as are common to all the children of God (especially with the added context of the rest of the chapter). Also, in a sense, the other “twinkling of an eye” scriptures do refer to sleeping, changing and resurrection, just a sleeping that is not prolonged or involve burial in or further decomposition into dust, a change that prevents or skips decomposition, and a resurrection that immediately follows the mortal estate.

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On May 22, 2016 at 6:16 PM, askandanswer said:

New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:51 - 53)
51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 88:94 - 99)
 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned.  And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.
95  And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;
96  And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.
97  And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—
98  They are Christ's, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.
99  And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ's at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.

Paul seems to be saying two things here. One, that we shall all be resurrected at the same time, and two, that the resurrection will occur at the sounding of the last trump.

 
Section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants seems to be saying that the resurrection will be a staged process occurring in several stages, and that it is only after the third trump that the resurrection will be completed – “And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation. (Doctrine and Covenants “| Section 88:100) Furthermore, this third trump is definitely not the last trump as verses 102 – 110 state that there will be at least another 11 trumps after this third trump.

What do you think is the best way to reconcile these apparent differences between 1 Corinthians and Section 88 on the nature and order of the resurrection?

Paul is including everyone- before, during and after. Everyone before the big event will be dead, those who would die during or after go through a transition that is very quick.

The only big difference i see is the DC goes into more detail.

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For what it's worth, i was reading this today: "Now, whether there shall be one time, or a second time, or a third time, that men shall come forth from the dead, it mattereth not; for God knoweth all these things; and it sufficeth me to know that this is the case—that there is a time appointed that all shall rise from the dead… Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not …Therefore, there is a time appointed unto men that they shall rise from the dead… (Alma 42)." Of course we learn elsewhere that there is indeed an order of resurrection (the righteous before the wicked).

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15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not

Yeah; this is pretty high on my "doesn't affect how I live my life at all, and I'm sure instructions will be provided if/when it becomes relevant" list.

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