Homosexual journey through the Mormon church

[yjacket]

7 hours ago, TilKingdomCome said:

I realise that's His wish, but until such a time when I find a female companion, what's wrong with having a male companion? This is a question I've asked here before, and I'm still not entirely convinced by the answer.

 It has been answered here, the answer is simply something you don't like.  Quite frankly it is wrong because God said so. End of story. You don't have to like it, but God is the ultimate authority figure in our lives and the sooner each individual gets on board with that fact the easier life gets.  God has said so through His scriptures and through His prophets multiple times. Sometimes in life, God just simply says flat out NO and the more humbly we accept that answer the easier life is for us.  Your answer of "what's wrong with having a male companion", is quite frankly an immature attitude. It is a very simple problem, do you want to follow God or not?  Read https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A16-24&version=KJV.  The meaning isn't simply about a rich man.  It is about being willing to give up everything, everything you hold dear for God.

7 hours ago, TilKingdomCome said:

• I don't want to talk to the branch president about it because (a) I'm not entirely too sure how I feel about the relationship. My boyfriend said he was okay with no sex, but today when I stood up to leave his place, he groped me and tried to get me to kiss him so I'm not sure if he really is okay with the no sex or not. Until I know for sure, I'm afraid I might end up saying the wrong thing to the president (b) the only reason I'm still with my boyfriend, despite the fact that we've had arguments over my religion and despite the fact that he groped me today, is because I have a massive crush on one of the missionaries, and I'm trying to distract myself from that by focusing my affections onto someone else. That's sort of like committing adultery (Matthew 5:28 "Whoever looks at a man to lust for him has already committed adultery"), I'm not being a hundred percent faithful or honest to my bf and I have allowed myself to continue this crush. I don't want the branch president to know I feel this way, in case he tells the Elder or in case that Elder gets transferred because of it

Wrong, you don't want to talk to the Branch President because of what he might say.  It has nothing to do with what you might say to the BP, it has everything to do with the fact that you have convinced yourself that homosexual relationships as long as it doesn't involve sex is okay and it isn't. No rationalization will make it okay and acceptable. 

Actually it might be in the best interest of the Elder to get transferred, you would be doing yourself and him a favor. Transfers occur every six weeks, if it is close to a transfer date, they would just transfer him without any problems. It is possible to have emergency transfers in between if necessary and they don't necessarily have to give a reason.

7 hours ago, TilKingdomCome said:

There's another gay guy who goes to Church. He's an investigator, and he's been investigating it since October (long before I started) He's always at the sports stuff and trips church members do, but he hasn't been baptised yet because he doesn't agree with the Church's stance on homosexuality. I'm beginning to think that maybe I was a bit too willing to stick to the baptism date the Elders had set for me. It's certainly brought me blessings in my life (eg it's brought me and my family closer, because they like the positive influence the Church is having on my life) but the homosexuality thing is still something I'm struggling with

Yes, I have warned multiple times. I will say, unfortunately, there are times when the Elders don't quite understand the full implications of baptism in a person's life. It is one of the reasons why the Church has about a 50% retention rate after baptism.  Investigators feel all warm and fuzzy, get baptized, and sometimes they don't quite realize the full implications of what they are committing to. A huge part of it is responsibility on the investigators part, is the investigator upfront with the missionaries.  

Did you mention to the Elders the extent of your relationship?  I highly doubt they would say, yeah that is okay. Did you disclose in the baptismal interview that you have a male companion with whom you are in a homosexual relationship?

Look, I've seen this rodeo before only in a heterosexual since.  2 good looking American missionaries in a foreign land, young 19 year-old girl likes the discussions, feels the Spirit but also has a crush on the missionaries. She attends church while the missionaries are there as soon as they are transferred she stops coming and mostly reverts back to her former life.  She certainly has learned a lot and the Gospel certainly enriches her life, but she reverts back to the old life, clubbing, not living the Word of Wisdom, etc.  She was baptized more for the missionaries rather than being converted.  Certainly it wasn't done on a whim, and she certainly believes the Church is true, she feels the pull of God, but it also feels real good to be around a couple of cute guys who talk religion and spend an hour a day (or more) at least once or twice a week. Maybe in 10 years after she has gone through it and come back, she'll remember some of the lessons and decide it is time to actually become converted rather than just go through the motions.

Just so you understand how serious homosexual behavior is:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-christofferson-says-handbook-changes-regarding-same-sex-marriages-help-protect-children?lang=eng

In other words, children who are raised in a homosexual environment are ineligible for baptism until they turn 18 and completely renounce their parents beliefs on it.

Now, that's hammer.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is amazing it is awesome and the blessings untold. The scriptures warn that in the Last Days, men will call good evil and evil good.  That is happening today. Which side are you on?

Edited May 28, 2016 by yjacket

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

15 hours ago, TilKingdomCome said:

My boyfriend said he was okay with no sex, but today when I stood up to leave his place, he groped me and tried to get me to kiss him so I'm not sure if he really is okay with the no sex or not.

Forgive me for being blunt, but I'm going to respond to this the same way I would for my daughter....

You are in denial.  He is CLEARLY not okay with no sex. Don't kid yourself.  That's point number one.  

Point number two...you told him no sex, and he said okay but then gropes you and tries to kiss you.  That is not okay.  A partner of any sort has to respect boundaries.  That's essential for healthy relationships.  If he tries it again, I suggest you drop him like a hot rock. 

To be honest, I agree with everyone else that you should not be in this relationship anyway, but my advice above was aside from that. 

[TilKingdomCome]

15 hours ago, zil said:

IMO, feelings (like a crush) are not sinful and I don't think you need to tell anyone about them (unless you feel it will help you).  I have no idea how likely it may or may not be for him to suggest the Elder be transferred (someone who has been in a priesthood leadership position would know better - I haven't led anything since the Laurels class (Young Women, 16-17 year olds - and that was many many years ago for me)).  I highly doubt they would tell the Elder anything - they'd just transfer him.  Since transfers aren't based on a calendar (last I knew), they wouldn't need to give him a reason.

Okay. Maybe I won't tell him, if feelings aren't sinful. I might mention that, although I'm willing to live a homosexual-free lifestyle, I'll still get crushes, but I won't act on them. I think it might be easier to get rid of my guilt if I tell him that, but I won't go into more detail than that or say who it is that I have a crush on.

8 hours ago, yjacket said:

 It has been answered here, the answer is simply something you don't like.  Quite frankly it is wrong because God said so. End of story. You don't have to like it, but God is the ultimate authority figure in our lives and the sooner each individual gets on board with that fact the easier life gets.  God has said so through His scriptures and through His prophets multiple times. Sometimes in life, God just simply says flat out NO and the more humbly we accept that answer the easier life is for us.  Your answer of "what's wrong with having a male companion", is quite frankly an immature attitude. It is a very simple problem, do you want to follow God or not?  Read https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A16-24&version=KJV.  The meaning isn't simply about a rich man.  It is about being willing to give up everything, everything you hold dear for God.

Where exactly does God speak about homosexuality? If you're speaking about the story of Sodom and Gomorroh, the act that God condemned there was rape - the "perverse act" that happened was not a loving relationship but violent gang-rape. Also, Joseph Smith said that God destroyed Sodom for "rejecting the prophets", not for homosexuality. If you're speaking about Leviticus 18:22 ("Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination") that could be referring to sexual relations, not a celibate relationship. Also, hasn't Jesus talked about the importance of love? So why would He consider a non-sexual, loving relationship between two guys to be a sin?

Wrong, you don't want to talk to the Branch President because of what he might say.  It has nothing to do with what you might say to the BP, it has everything to do with the fact that you have convinced yourself that homosexual relationships as long as it doesn't involve sex is okay and it isn't. No rationalization will make it okay and acceptable. 

I've decided that I will talk to the BP and yes, I mightn't like what he has to say. He might say that celibate homosexual relationships are bad. And if he does, that's something I'm going to have to live with, and I'll have to face whatever consequences come from having continued my relationship after being baptised. I still don't understand why it's wrong though - if it's just pure, simple love, what is so bad about that? 

Actually it might be in the best interest of the Elder to get transferred, you would be doing yourself and him a favor. Transfers occur every six weeks, if it is close to a transfer date, they would just transfer him without any problems. It is possible to have emergency transfers in between if necessary and they don't necessarily have to give a reason.

How would I be doing him a favor? He said he hates moving around from place to place. Also, I'm pretty sure they said that they've been in this city for three months now (ie more than the six weeks)

Yes, I have warned multiple times. I will say, unfortunately, there are times when the Elders don't quite understand the full implications of baptism in a person's life. It is one of the reasons why the Church has about a 50% retention rate after baptism.  Investigators feel all warm and fuzzy, get baptized, and sometimes they don't quite realize the full implications of what they are committing to. A huge part of it is responsibility on the investigators part, is the investigator upfront with the missionaries.

Yes, that seems to be happening to me now - the spiritual high of the few weeks leading up to baptism is over, and I've actually been feeling very depressed over the last few days. 

Did you mention to the Elders the extent of your relationship?  I highly doubt they would say, yeah that is okay. Did you disclose in the baptismal interview that you have a male companion with whom you are in a homosexual relationship?

No, I didn't. Yes, I should have. I did tell the president who conducted the baptismal interview that I had had gay sex in the past, but that I no longer had sex. 

Look, I've seen this rodeo before only in a heterosexual since.  2 good looking American missionaries in a foreign land, young 19 year-old girl likes the discussions, feels the Spirit but also has a crush on the missionaries. She attends church while the missionaries are there as soon as they are transferred she stops coming and mostly reverts back to her former life.  She certainly has learned a lot and the Gospel certainly enriches her life, but she reverts back to the old life, clubbing, not living the Word of Wisdom, etc.  She was baptized more for the missionaries rather than being converted.  Certainly it wasn't done on a whim, and she certainly believes the Church is true, she feels the pull of God, but it also feels real good to be around a couple of cute guys who talk religion and spend an hour a day (or more) at least once or twice a week. Maybe in 10 years after she has gone through it and come back, she'll remember some of the lessons and decide it is time to actually become converted rather than just go through the motions.

It's interesting - and understandable - to see that others have had crushes on missionaries. However, that's as far as the similarity between me and that girl go: I didn't get baptized "more for the missionaries". I got baptized because I have faith in this Church and I recognise it's truth. And I learn a lot from some of the other Elders (besides the two who are teaching me) and some other church members, I have interest and desire to learn more about the Church and what God wants, I didn't just attend the lesson to "be around a couple of cute guys". As I said before, I've actually tried my best to distance myself and distract myself from the missionary in question.

Just so you understand how serious homosexual behavior is:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-christofferson-says-handbook-changes-regarding-same-sex-marriages-help-protect-children?lang=eng

In other words, children who are raised in a homosexual environment are ineligible for baptism until they turn 18 and completely renounce their parents beliefs on it.

Yes, I have heard of this change in the handbook. I've also heard that it's led to a lot of young people committing suicide over it. However, I don't see how that relates to my situation. When I'm older, and more financially secure, I'm going to wed a woman and have kids the way God intended, but until then I'm going to have relationships with the people I'm attracted to (gay guys). I'm not going to have kids with any of them.

Now, that's hammer.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is amazing it is awesome and the blessings untold. The scriptures warn that in the Last Days, men will call good evil and evil good.  That is happening today. Which side are you on?

 

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Forgive me for being blunt, but I'm going to respond to this the same way I would for my daughter....

You are in denial.  He is CLEARLY not okay with no sex. Don't kid yourself.  That's point number one.  

Point number two...you told him no sex, and he said okay but then gropes you and tries to kiss you.  That is not okay.  A partner of any sort has to respect boundaries.  That's essential for healthy relationships.  If he tries it again, I suggest you drop him like a hot rock. 

To be honest, I agree with everyone else that you should not be in this relationship anyway, but my advice above was aside from that. 

Unfortunately, you're right. He doesn't seem to be okay with no sex, even if he said he is. And yes, him groping me like that was completely inappropiate. I felt awful afterwards, because I've been doing my best to live to the law of chastity and one thing I learnt in my lessons with the Elders on that subject is that it;s a sin to touch someone in their private parts if you're not married to them, even if it's touching them above the clothes and not the actual flesh. It's a sin between a male and a female; it's a double-sin between a male and a male. I messaged him this morning, saying that we need to talk, and I am thinking of dumping him. It's not going to be easy but (a) we both want different things out of the relationship and (b) as I said in an earlier comment, one of the main reasons I'm still with him is because it's distracting me from thinking about my crush. That's pretty unfair to him tbh

[MrShorty]

A few thoughts (some of which are likely to run counter to what many of my co-religionists here have said).

Having been in a sexless/axexual marriage for several years, I can appreciate the difficulties of navigating a "romantic-asexual" relationship when both partners are not fully on board with the "asexual" part of that description. When I was young and getting married, I would have naively said the same thing your boyfriend is saying -- that I would have been okay with an asexual relationship. In my naivete, I did not understand my own sexuality and how important it would become to me, and how much real frustration comes when you cannot share a sexual relationship with your spouse (with whom you have made eternal covenants of exclusivity). I don't know your age or experience level, but I could see your boyfriend's pronouncement as naive, if you are both young and inexperienced. My advice: Some serious introspection on your part. Then, a "state of the relationship" talk ("No! not 'The Talk"!). If you want to stay celibate, and are committed to that course, your boyfriend deserves to know that in no uncertain terms, and needs to be just as committed to respecting your sexual boundaries. He may need some time for serious introspection to come to that commitment or decide that he cannot commit to such a thing. Then evaluate the relationship at that point.

But that is about navigating relationships, not so much about the Church's official position. After studying what the Church has to say about marriage, my conclusion is that the Church has very little to say about "heteroromantic-asexual" marriage. The Church's main concern seems to be about preventing divorce and keeping marriages together. If an asexual hetero-marriage can survive without divorce, the Church does not officially condemn or otherwise concern itself with what is going on in the marriage bedroom.

Which leads to the point of pushing back against the other responders and siding with the OP. I have not come across anything official from the Church that condemns homoromantic-asexual relationships (For those that have followed this far, you might visit AVEN's website for discussion on different romantic orientations and how romantic orientation can be different from sexual orientation). I have seen many within the Church community express "discomfort" with homoromantic relationships, but such discomfort does not constitute the official position of the Church. The primary statement that I see applying here is the "attraction is not a sin but acting on attraction is", which is broad and generic enough to wonder exactly what behaviors constitute "acting on" homosexual attractions. Is holding hands a sexual behavior (we certainly tolerate it in hetersexual unmarrieds)? kissing? hugging? making out?

TilKingdomCome, I'm glad that you have joined the Church. I have limited interaction with the LGBT (can we put asexuals in there?) community, but one of my mission companions is now an out gay man, and I know he wrestles with these same kinds of questions. I hear stories of asexuals in the church as well. I guess the thing I want to conclude with is to know that you are certainly not the only asexual in the Church who may be wrestling with these kinds of questions.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2016 by MrShorty

[zil]

30 minutes ago, TilKingdomCome said:

Where exactly does God speak about homosexuality?

Here: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/homosexual-behavior?lang=eng&letter=h

...and I strongly recommend you follow the links at the top to the topics of Chastity and Sexual Immorality; then review topics on marriage, family, children, husband, wife, and the like.  It's a lot to study, no doubt, but that's how you come to understand not just that God forbids homosexual behavior, but that he commands marriage between a man and a woman and the having of children - because that is the structure of Heaven.  For more on that, read "The Family: A Proclamation to the World", followed by everything under the "Families and Individuals" menu item.

30 minutes ago, TilKingdomCome said:

So why would He consider a non-sexual, loving relationship between two guys to be a sin?

If it is truly fraternal, he wouldn't.  But what you described is not a fraternal relationship.  The sort of relationship you describe needlessly subjects you to temptation.  It is unfair to your boyfriend who clearly wants a physical relationship.  It hinders you from seeking an appropriate relationship with a woman.  It violates the "nor anything like unto it" implicit in all commandments.

30 minutes ago, TilKingdomCome said:

I've actually been feeling very depressed over the last few days

IMO, among whatever I don't know, part of this would have to be: increasing temptations by Satan (he does NOT want you to know or embrace the truth, God, Jesus Christ, or any other good thing), and an internal conflict between behavior/thoughts and the things the Spirit has testified to you are true.

30 minutes ago, TilKingdomCome said:

When I'm older, and more financially secure, I'm going to wed a woman and have kids the way God intended, but until then I'm going to have relationships with the people I'm attracted to (gay guys). I'm not going to have kids with any of them.

If you're in Kansas, you can't get to Canada by going south*.  If your goal is to one day marry a woman and have children, you don't get there by having relationships with men now.  IMO, this is one of the key things related to all forms of sexual sin (whether it's adultery, fornication or other things forbidden outside marriage, porn use, masturbation, fantasies willfully entertained about any of that, etc.) - all those things get in the way of what is appropriate - whether they harm a good, existing relationship, or prevent or delay formation of such a relationship, they all stand in the way of what God has commanded regarding marriage and family.  To willfully put things in the way of what God has commanded is sin.

Now I will tell you a story that is pseudo-related: One day I was riding in the car with my dad driving.  I don't remember how the subject came up, but he told me he knew that had he and my mom chosen to delay having children until he was financially more secure, he would never have had the career opportunities he did.  The career opportunities came because they chose to trust God and do as commanded.  It's a sequence worth pondering (obey first, blessings second).

(*OK, OK for the nit pickers, you could go in a loop, but eventually, you'd be going North (yes, I know, then south again) - but you get my point.)

Edited May 28, 2016 by zil

[Connie]

The ultimate goal of pursuing a romantic relationship is the eventuality of marriage and family. If a marriage and family cannot be created between people of the same sex, why would one even want to pursue a serious relationship with someone of the same sex knowing that ultimate purpose can never be realized?

[Latter-Day Marriage]

On 2016-05-27 at 5:41 PM, TilKingdomCome said:

My boyfriend said he was okay with no sex, but today when I stood up to leave his place, he groped me and tried to get me to kiss him so I'm not sure if he really is okay with the no sex or not.

And that is why you need to end the relationship and separate completely.  He has not accepted the standards of the church and it is unfair to him to tie him up in a committed relationship that won't be satisfying to him (assuming he really means it when he agreed to celibacy).  I think it is VERY likely that he believes this is just a phase for you, and over time he can wear you down and move things back to being how they were before.  Non-member hetro boys try that all the time when their girlfriend joins the church, and if they can seduce their significant other into having sex it is then way easier to convince them to leave the church rather than go through the painful repentance process.  You are putting yourself at risk by continuing this relationship.

Your priority has to be your eternal welfare.  If that means ending a relationship, do it.  If it mean radically changing how you spend your leisure time, do it.  If it mean an Elder needs to be transferred, so be it.  It isn't a sin to feel temptation, but it is a sin to act on it and the more temptation you expose yourself too the more likely it is that at some point you will cross the line and act on it.  Don't flirt with how close you can get to the line, see how far from the line you can get.  Sleeping in the same bed as someone you have feelings for, holding hands etc. all that is begging for trouble and I think down inside you know it.  His groping you is his wrong, not yours, you didn't ask or invite it, he made the choice to do that.  If a guy did that to a girl it would be called a sexual assault, I don't see why it should be called anything different in your case.

Having a regular just-friends relationship with other guys is perfectly fine.  Having any kind of romantic relationship with someone of the same gender, celibate or not, is wrong.  You know that story about the two wolves in a person's soul, the good and the bad one, always in battle and the moral of the story is that the one that wins is the one that you feed?  Don't feed the wrong wolf by continuing that relationship and strengthening the feelings and habits you need to overcome.  Why would God bless you with a wonderful woman you can be happy with if you continue to act like this?  Show God you are committed to living the standards of the Church and he will bless you for it.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Latter-Day Marriage

[Latter-Day Marriage]

On 2016-05-27 at 5:58 PM, TilKingdomCome said:

Okay. Thank you, and you gave me a lot to think on. I find it handier to actually write out my thoughts, and see what people's advice on them is - sorry if the last comment was way too much detail. Do you think I should tell the branch president about the crush on the Elder? Like, how likely is it that he'll suggest the Elder's transfer? And, if he does suggest a transfer, do they have to tell the Elder the reason for it? I don't want him to remember me as "that guy who caused me to have to move cities again", especially when he actually told me that he hates moving around, and would much prefer to stay in the one area for as long as possible.

Talk with the Branch President about it.  It might result in the Elder being transferred, it might not. If the Elder is transferred he won't be told why, that will be confidential between you, the branch president and the mission president.  I learned on my mission that transfers really are done by the inspiration of God, so don't guilt yourself over anything.  The only time I was told why I was being transferred was because I was being given an assignment to fulfill in the new area.   A lot of times I got transferred right after a hard won baptism, it was like, 'OK you've done your job here, time to move on...'.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

10 hours ago, TilKingdomCome said:

 I messaged him this morning, saying that we need to talk, and I am thinking of dumping him. It's not going to be easy but (a) we both want different things out of the relationship and (b) as I said in an earlier comment, one of the main reasons I'm still with him is because it's distracting me from thinking about my crush. That's pretty unfair to him tbh

With Sodom and Gomorrah, God sent messengers (men) to Lot and a crowd of men demanded they he turn them over to them so they could 'know' them, which is a euphemism for having sex with them.  It wasn't that one incident though, what those events show was how deeply sinful the whole city had become.  If they had not rejected the prophets they would not have sunk to that level.

In Romans 1:27 it condemns men lusting after each other.  Those crushes you feel need to be overcome or ignored, not fostered and grown into something more.  As for love, I love my brothers, I love my sons, I love my mission president, mission companions, and lots of other guys who have blessed my life, but none of those relationships include any kind of romance or desire.  Perhaps this is a chance for you to work on the skills of a different way of loving somebody.  Likewise I love my mother, my daughters, my sisters and some other women but my desires and romantic feelings are reserved for my wife only.

And on that front, don't let money control your wedding.  When you know somebody is the one, marry them as soon as can reasonably be done.  When I proposed I was only back 6 weeks from my mission.  No car, no job, no money, no assets, and just starting my first year at university.  Best move I ever made.

Being transferred after 3 months in an area is pretty normal, more than 4 months is unusual.  He should be expecting a transfer after that long regardless of circumstances.

I hope your conversation with him goes well.  I think it is best for both or you to go your separate ways. Good luck.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Latter-Day Marriage
added info

[TilKingdomCome]

So I met with the branch president two Sundays ago, and explained about how I had continued my relationship with my bf after my baptism, but had now ended it. The president said it was okay, as long as I didn't do it again, and I was able to receive the Aaronic Priesthood the same day.

Two questions:

(1) Because I've been refraining from m*turbation since baptism, I've found myself having some dreams involving homosexual stuff. Because I can't control what happens in my dreams, I'm guessing that this is okay?

(2) If me and my friends are playing the game spin the bottle, and it lands on another guy, am I able to kiss him or must I pass?

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Til,

1- God set up agency well - He only holds us accountable for things we can actually control.  That doesn't mean we don't receive consequences for things outside of our control, it just means God won't hold us responsible for things that happen to us, just how we choose to react.

2- See #1.

 

[zil]

Huh.  When did they start letting ponies use keyboards?

[LeSellers]

2 hours ago, TilKingdomCome said:

(2) If me and my friends are playing the game spin the bottle, and it lands on another guy, am I able to kiss him or must I pass?

If your friends and your are playing spin the bottle, one might wonder why you are doing so.

Kissing between heterosexuals is, especially in this kind of situation, a courting ritual. Missionaries don't play spin the bottle because they are not courting. Ergo, if you are not courting, it would be wiser to avoid the temptation, just as missionaries avoid it and for exactly the same reason.

Lehi

[NightSG]

25 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Missionaries don't play spin the bottle because they are not courting.

Well, that and they really shouldn't have any empty wine bottles laying around.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, zil said:

Huh.  When did they start letting ponies use keyboards?

Seems like the keys would have to be huge. 

[TilKingdomCome]

On 6/9/2016 at 2:25 PM, LeSellers said:

If your friends and your are playing spin the bottle, one might wonder why you are doing so.

Kissing between heterosexuals is, especially in this kind of situation, a courting ritual. Missionaries don't play spin the bottle because they are not courting. Ergo, if you are not courting, it would be wiser to avoid the temptation, just as missionaries avoid it and for exactly the same reason.

Lehi

But we play it just for fun, not as a courting ritual...

 

UPDATE

The Sunday before last I got the Aaronic Priesthood. Also, two of the missionaries left that weekend. The missionary I mentioned previously didn't leave, and neither did one of the others, but everyone else did. The two who remained got two new companions.

Since then, I've been having a lot of doubt concerning the church. I know that a lot of the church is true but I don't agree with the church's view on celibate gay relationships. I understand why sexual gay relationships are a sin (waste of seed, lust of the flesh etc) but celibate gay relationships don't have that problem. If you want to suggest that those relationships are sinful because people should be getting into heterosexual relationships and bearing kids, I believe that gay couples should be allowed to foster/adopt kids who otherwise wouldn't have families. That way ALL of God's children are given families: the majority will have their heterosexual birth parents, but those who don't have that will be adopted/fostered. And no, I don't agree with surrogacy.

Another thing that I've been having doubts about is the secrecy concerning the temple rituals. I've talked to various ex-Mormons online who said about how these rituals are like cult ceremonies, with stuff like slitting of the throat or someone acting as Satan. While I'm sure a lot of that is scaremongering to get people away from the church, when the missionaries and other church members refuse to clarify what actually happens in the temple, it means I only know of the bad stuff that's said to happen there. The reason the missionaries give for this secrecy is because temples are "sacred" but I'm not sure if I agree with this secrecy - don't people have the right to know what they're signing up for??

I didn't go to church last Sunday, because I was sick (the doctor says I might have colon cancer - not exactly a blessing one would expect immediately after baptism...) and I won't be going this Sunday either. This is for various reasons (1) I'm badly sun-burnt at the moment, because the weather here has been extremely hot, even though this country usually has a colder/rainy climate. My skin has started peeling because of it, so I want to limit the amount of time I spend away from home as much as possible until I recover (2) I've been having the aforementioned doubts. I want to spend some days away from church people so that I can make up my own mind whether this is a path I want to pursue or not, instead of being influenced by other people's opinions. Likewise, I'm avoiding talking to anyone who says negative stuff about the church, like ex-Mormons or my LGBT friends. I'm still reading scripture and praying a lot, so the only ones who'll influence my decision are me and God. (3) I still have a crush on that person. It's not as severe as it once was but I think it's good not to spend the Sabbath Day around him. As you've probably experienced, when you have a crush on someone, it can be quite distracting, and I don't want that distraction on the Sabbath, when I'm supposed to be devoting all my time to God. Instead I'll spend the day praying and reading scripture.

That said, I am meeting with the branch president again today. I will explain to him my doubts and worries and I will mention my crush, something I didn't mention last time I met him. I won't say who it is, but I will explain about how it's something that's serving as a distraction. When I confess it, it should make it easier to move on from the crush. I spoke to my counselor yesterday, and told her about the crush, and it did help decrease the burden by just speaking to someone about it.

So in other words, I got the Aaronic Priesthood two weeks ago from this Sunday but ever since then I haven't gone to church/fulfilled my duties. I hope to solve my problems and be ready to serve properly by next Sunday.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, TilKingdomCome said:

I hope to solve my problems and be ready to serve properly by next Sunday.

Working on our issues (cause we ALL have some of them) is the best thing any of us can do.  Keep holding the iron rod and putting one foot in front of the other.

[estradling75]

You might be running into a problem with terminology.  I am married and I have a heterosexual relationship with my wife.  It is not celibate and not expected to be so.  I have friends who are girls... I don't run around calling those relationships celibate heterosexual relationships...  I simply call them friendships. 

You also seem to vary between calling yourself a homosexual and asexual.  Those terms are contradictory.  An asexual person does not bare the burden of a sexual attraction to anyone...  The temptation to violate the Law of Chasity through sexual desire simply isn't there.  Whereas for hetero, or homo sexuals it is there (although the strength may vary)

In your prior post you describe a relationship were you SO is not OK with an celibate relationship. (Actions speak louder then words) That is unlikely to change.  That makes the most likely case that either you give in or you break up.  Neither one is going to be a pleasant journey for you

Now you should have been taught that the greatest blessing that God offers in to Husband and Wife legally and lawfully married.  That is not easy to obtain even for those of us happy married.  We have to struggle and work for it.  If we fail then we end up with a lesser blessing a blessing that we show we are capable of obtaining.

You have hard choices to make.  You can make the choice to face the struggle required of you to get the greatest blessing God offers...  Which is going to be a huge struggle for you (like it is for everyone one way or another). It will be a struggle, you will have doubts and thoughts that it is just not worth it, but the Lord's promises are true. 

Or you can decide that you don't want all that God is willing to offer you.  That is a much easier road, it is not nearly as much of a struggle or a sacrifice, but then the blessing is lesser to.

That leads us to the Temple... a good chunk of the Endowment text is found in the Book of Abraham it covers the Creation and places us in the role of Adam and Eve.  It put you under more covenants the detail of which are already part of church teachings that you know (you go from being taught various principles of the gospel to promising to live them)

The temple is a place for those have have chosen to face the struggles required to get the great blessing God offers.  That is why we wait a year before new converts can go(excepting baptisms for the dead)...  You are showing doubts and confusion on just how much you are willing to do and how true you really think the church is... Which means you are not ready.  That is ok...  You can either choose to work and prepare yourself or you can choose not to

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by estradling75

[Guest]

5 hours ago, TilKingdomCome said:

I've talked to various ex-Mormons online

95% of your problem right there.

"Playing" kissing games for fun shows to me a lack of maturity and/or lack of respect for the human body, and/or lack of understanding of what any sort of affection beyond friendly (short) hugs can do to promote attachments between people. 

[TilKingdomCome]

4 hours ago, estradling75 said:

You might be running into a problem with terminology.  I am married and I have a heterosexual relationship with my wife.  It is not celibate and not expected to be so.  I have friends who are girls... I don't run around calling those relationships celibate heterosexual relationships...  I simply call them friendships. 

This is something that comes up a lot - "aren't celibate relationships just friendships". The answer is no. There's an emotional commitment that exists in a relationship that isn't there quite as much in friendships. It's the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, the person you want to raise a family with, the person you want to cuddle when you go to sleep ... stuff that mightn't exist in friendships. Also, there's the fact that - if you're both in a celibate relationship - you both know that there's attraction there. You mightn't turn this attraction into s*x but there's attraction there nonetheless.

You also seem to vary between calling yourself a homosexual and asexual.  Those terms are contradictory.  An asexual person does not bare the burden of a sexual attraction to anyone...  The temptation to violate the Law of Chasity through sexual desire simply isn't there.  Whereas for hetero, or homo sexuals it is there (although the strength may vary)

If you want a label, I'm a "homoromantic asexual" - I don't desire sexual contact with someone but I do desire a relationship. Tbh I figured such terms might be a little confusing for the general person using these forums, as it's pretty much a Tumblrism.

In your prior post you describe a relationship were you SO is not OK with an celibate relationship. (Actions speak louder then words) That is unlikely to change.  That makes the most likely case that either you give in or you break up.  Neither one is going to be a pleasant journey for you

We've broken up. I thought I already said that. After he groped me, I pretty much knew we were finished.

Now you should have been taught that the greatest blessing that God offers in to Husband and Wife legally and lawfully married.  That is not easy to obtain even for those of us happy married.  We have to struggle and work for it.  If we fail then we end up with a lesser blessing a blessing that we show we are capable of obtaining.

One man's treasure is another man's torture. Why would marriage to a woman be considered a blessing for me, when I have absolutely no interest in women? God gives us many blessings, marriage isn't the only one.

You have hard choices to make.  You can make the choice to face the struggle required of you to get the greatest blessing God offers...  Which is going to be a huge struggle for you (like it is for everyone one way or another). It will be a struggle, you will have doubts and thoughts that it is just not worth it, but the Lord's promises are true. 

Or you can decide that you don't want all that God is willing to offer you.  That is a much easier road, it is not nearly as much of a struggle or a sacrifice, but then the blessing is lesser to.

To be completely honest, I'm not the kind of person who wants every blessing under the sun. I hate how some people pay tithing and follow commandments for the sole reason that they're promised blessings if we do those things. Shouldn't we follow His commandments anyways, without expecting anything in return? Yes, I'll get blessings and so what if those blessings are something that you might consider "lesser"?

That leads us to the Temple... a good chunk of the Endowment text is found in the Book of Abraham it covers the Creation and places us in the role of Adam and Eve.  It put you under more covenants the detail of which are already part of church teachings that you know (you go from being taught various principles of the gospel to promising to live them)

The temple is a place for those have have chosen to face the struggles required to get the great blessing God offers.  That is why we wait a year before new converts can go(excepting baptisms for the dead)...  You are showing doubts and confusion on just how much you are willing to do and how true you really think the church is... Which means you are not ready.  That is ok...  You can either choose to work and prepare yourself or you can choose not to

Met with branch president today and he explained about temples. I know I'm not yet worthy to go but I'm going to prepare myself for them. Also, the branch president didn't have an answer for the celibate relationships question but he said he'll go and find out and lemme know.

 

2 hours ago, Eowyn said:

"Playing" kissing games for fun shows to me a lack of maturity and/or lack of respect for the human body, and/or lack of understanding of what any sort of affection beyond friendly (short) hugs can do to promote attachments between people. 

 

Kissing games are brief, tongue-on-tongue action that only lasts for a short time (some people may choose to make them last longer, that's up for them). It's more of a joke and fun than a sign of affection for the other person. If I wanted to affectionately kiss someone, I wouldn't use spin-the-bottle to do it.

[estradling75]

Quote

One man's treasure is another man's torture. Why would marriage to a woman be considered a blessing for me, when I have absolutely no interest in women? God gives us many blessings, marriage isn't the only one.

God know what he is doing better then anyone of us here...

To use an analogy God has given you everything you need to get a Deluxe Combo meal all you have to do is go up an order it and pay for it (with what he has given you to pay with) 

You can of course order and pay for water and a side a fries and that is what he will give you...  But know and understand that it was your choice....  Don't expect to get the deluxe combo meal when all you paid for was water and fries.

So you might want to rethink the idea that your current desires/interest are absolute and eternally defining.  Every single one of us is expected to turn over our own desires and interest over to the Lord and follow his path...  And we will all go as far and be rewarded as much as we are willing to do so.  There is no exception.

[Budget]

On 6/9/2016 at 5:45 AM, TilKingdomCome said:

(2) If me and my friends are playing the game spin the bottle, and it lands on another guy, am I able to kiss him or must I pass?

I have never known anyone over the age of 13 to ever play spin the bottle......  that totally caught me off guard. 

[NeuroTypical]

9 hours ago, TilKingdomCome said:

Another thing that I've been having doubts about is the secrecy concerning the temple rituals.

Oh, this one is easy.  Here - have a year's worth of deep study links on the topic.  One wonders why we write so much stuff about such a secret thing.

https://www.lds.org/church/temples/why-we-build-temples?lang=eng

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/

http://www.mormontemples.org/

https://www.mormon.org/faq/use-of-temples

https://www.amazon.com/Preparing-Temple-Church-Christ-Latter-day-ebook/dp/B008D50JLO/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1465679846&sr=8-3&keywords=mormon+temples

https://www.amazon.com/Temple-Gaining-Knowledge-Power-House-ebook/dp/B00K1O6OKU/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1465679846&sr=8-7&keywords=mormon+temples

https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Temple-Boyd-K-Packer/dp/0884944115/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1465679846&sr=8-13&keywords=mormon+temples

https://www.amazon.com/Endowed-High-Understanding-Symbols-Endowment/dp/0882906143/ref=pd_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=41NJSF8%2Bd0L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR100%2C160_&refRID=2260DJ8GW9F0FHTD3PJR

https://www.amazon.com/Your-Endowment-Mark-Shields/dp/1599552876/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=51xNPQ9IkLL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR105%2C160_&refRID=2260DJ8GW9F0FHTD3PJR

 

Yeah.  "Secrecy".  Sorry, but this really is one of the more laughable criticisms that critical exmormons make.  You read all that stuff - if you're a fast reader you can do it in maybe a few months or even less.  If you're still worried about stuff being hidden or kept secret, then come back and we'll talk further.

Edited June 11, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[zil]

1 hour ago, TilKingdomCome said:

Kissing games are brief, tongue-on-tongue action that only lasts for a short time (some people may choose to make them last longer, that's up for them). It's more of a joke and fun than a sign of affection for the other person. If I wanted to affectionately kiss someone, I wouldn't use spin-the-bottle to do it.

The validity of Eowyn's answer stands.  This is not a good activity for anyone striving to be a disciple of Christ.

1 hour ago, TilKingdomCome said:

This is something that comes up a lot - "aren't celibate relationships just friendships". The answer is no. There's an emotional commitment that exists in a relationship that isn't there quite as much in friendships. It's the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, the person you want to raise a family with, the person you want to cuddle when you go to sleep ... stuff that mightn't exist in friendships. Also, there's the fact that - if you're both in a celibate relationship - you both know that there's attraction there. You mightn't turn this attraction into s*x but there's attraction there nonetheless.

What you describe is contrary to revealed doctrine, especially doctrine relating to marriage and family.  I know this is extremely difficult for you personally, and I hope you are able one day to come to an understanding of this doctrine that speaks peace to your soul despite the temptations you face, but the doctrine is the doctrine and has not changed since before the earth was created.  And, IMO, this is not "asexual"; it is "sans-intercourse", but it is not "asexual".

Edited June 11, 2016 by zil
;,

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

No kissing games, especially tongue to tongue are not appropriate. Both sexes, it's wrong. As Eowyn said , it shows disregard for a precious gift that Father has given us and asked us to keep sacred. I believe it was Elder Bednar that said of all the names that God could use, He choose Father. Kissing is part of sexuality, which is part of the Divine plan for creation. Its not something to toy around with.

I know you are new to the church and it's a lot to take in.So be patient. It appears that you are spending a lot of time with apostates or anti sites. Why? Think of it this way...imagine you want to play the violin. It will take a lot of discipline, but its important to you. With this goal inind, would you then surround yourself with football fans that think playing the violin is for weak, silly people that can't play football. Why would you choose companions that aren't consistent with your goals?