Personal apostasy


carlimac
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So...it's "Pride" month apparently. I would have been happily naive to the whole affair but it's there splashed across headlines. I read the news. Can't miss that it's being celebrated. As many of you know, it raises my blood pressure a tad.  Much to my dismay, many good friends and relatives whom I understood to be conservative and full believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ are now joining this "celebration" shamelessly, while still professing to be active in the Church.  My question is: How does one reconcile the chasm between supporting, "liking" on facebook (which I know is a nebulous sort of raising the right hand- but there it is), condoning and "loving" (because it's all about love) those living that lifestyle without any condemnation...and sustaining the prophet and church leaders.

I recently had a little conversation with a straight (married to a man) LDS woman,  who is a very big supporter of all things Gay: pride parades, legislation, etc.   I asked her that question and she very bluntly replied,     "It’s simple–I don’t believe that having relationships or getting married or starting families with the person you love is wrong. It’s really that easy. And it’s prideful to assume you know the will of God regarding other people’s relationships, or that it’s up to you to “condone” or “condemn” their actions."  

Huh! Well then are the prophet and apostles wrong?   Her answer,"  Yes, I believe it’s entirely possible that they are dead wrong... With how deep prejudices run against LGBT+ people, I would not be at all surprised that the church is wrong yet again, too blinded by centuries of homo/transphobia to be even willing to hear another answer. ...  I look at the fruits of the church’s teachings on LGBT issues, and they are rotten and poisonous. Suicide, disastrous mixed-orientation marriages, years of silent suffering, denial of joy in this life in the hope that somehow they’ll be “fixed” in the next life. There is no God in that . "

Doesn't this qualify as personal apostasy?  

I know I shouldn't sweat some random blogger's opinion. But the fact that it so closely resembles opinions of some "active, temple going" members of my family and friends gives me a pit in my stomach. Frankly, it scares the bejeebers out of me. 

What say y'all?

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49 minutes ago, carlimac said:

Doesn't this qualify as personal apostacy?  

IMO, unless one is a judge in Israel, one cannot make that decision about another person.  We can know what is true from studying the scriptures and words of modern prophets.  We can testify of the truth.  We can treat all of our brothers and sisters with the kind of love the Savior teaches us to show (or try to), without condoning sinful behavior.  But determination of apostasy belongs to those with keys.

It seems to me that this woman's comments reflect a lack of understanding of the complex interaction between several principles and she's been deceived into believing her reaction is the only way a loving person could respond to those who are suffering in relation to this issue.  This is one of Satan's greatest tricks - to present us with a false, only-2-options choice where one way is obviously evil and the other appears good but is really just another form of evil.  The apparent difference between the two "options", and the fervor around the issue prevent many from seeing that there are other options, and so they pick the one which appears good, not realizing that what they're picking is just as evil as the other.

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1 hour ago, carlimac said:

the church is wrong yet again...church’s teachings on LGBT issues, and they are rotten and poisonous...There is no God in that

In many cases, people either hear what they want to hear (the negative) or sometimes are simply too lazy to dig any deeper and educate themselves to the truth. In other instances, individuals hear what other people or members have to say and then mistakenly identify those ideas as though it is actual Church policy/doctrine. Also in other cases, yes, the Church has a policy or stance that others simply don't like and therefore call it "rotten and poisonous". 

I suppose any random blogger can post whatever they want. Just because they toss out the bait or cry "fire over there" doesn't mean we have to give them the attention they want or take their bait.

Here is an official LDS site regarding this matter from different angles: http://mormonsandgays.org/

I found it helpful in my empathy towards the challenges of others. The fact of the matter is we all struggle with something. We are all on a path to change/better something in our lives. The fact is I believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is his church. Because of my solid testimony, when perceived issues arise, my first instinct is to figure out how this works in harmony with the Gospel and educate myself on aspects of the concern rather than attempt to bend the Church's will to coincide with my own way of thinking.

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44 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

 

I suppose any random blogger can post whatever they want. Just because they toss out the bait or cry "fire over there" doesn't mean we have to give them the attention they want or take their bait.

Here is an official LDS site regarding this matter from different angles: http://mormonsandgays.org/

 

I've read through this website before and it did nothing but confirm to  me that the Lord loves all His children and so do the leaders of our church.  Even the latest policy on excommunication and not baptizing children in gay households are measures of compassion and love.  So when someone speaks in such caustic terms about this or other hot button topics, basically criticizing our leaders, It raises a red flag in my mind and feels like they are taking a step into apostasy. 

My hardest issue is when those close to me start talking this way. I'm usually so dumbfounded I don't know how to respond. My bubble is bursting. My own convictions and testimony remain intact but I wonder if I should warn those loved ones how close to the cliff they are getting. 

Gay marriage just happens to be the ever present topic that is tripping so many up. And it seems I'm one who hasn't "seen the light" yet. I have a feeling the social pressure surrounding this will only get harder rather than easier.

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Have you invited those you're worried about to read the website?  (I don't know what else to recommend.  Either they'll read it or they won't.  The most anyone else can do is encourage them to learn more, and continue to affirm that the church's position is one of compassion.)

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12 hours ago, carlimac said:

Frankly, it scares the bejeebers out of me. 

So, what exactly is a bejeeber?:rolleyes:

12 hours ago, carlimac said:

some "active, temple going" members of my family and friends.

I wonder how these "temple going" individuals answer the question "Do you support and sustain...as a prophet, seer, and revelator and the only person authorized to receive revelation for the whole Church?"

 

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I wonder how these "temple going" individuals answer the question "Do you support and sustain...as a prophet, seer, and revelator and the only person authorized to receive revelation for the whole Church?"

In at least a few cases, I'm not sure they sober up enough to spot the inconsistency before the TR interview.

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I can't personally fathom how someone could support gay marriage, if you understand the doctrines of the church. Marriage is all-important, and it means a man and a woman.

To the OP:

The LDS gospel is all about moral free agency. We are all free to believe what we want. Hopefully, we will arrive at our views through study, prayer, and faith - and keep growing and increasing in knowledge. We are all on our own individual life's path to understanding truth, in a sense.

However, official apostasy, the kind that gets you excommunicated, is when you publicly preach views that are contrary to the core teachings of church leaders.

I am not surprised that we are seeing divisions in the church now. These are the last days. As the distance widens between Zion and Babylon, people will no longer be able to stay citizens of both cities.

"Choose you this day whom ye will serve... but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Now is a day for choosing. Those who don't actively choose to follow the light of Christ inside them, to swim against the worldly currents upstream toward Zion, will drift with the rest of the world downstream into Babylon.

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Unfortunately, too many people, in and out of the church have replaced True religion with fake religion.  Their religion today is psychology.  The beginning of the end is when people start thinking that homosexuals or transgender people, or whoever are "born that way".  This is a very pernicious, false and down right evil thinking.

Because the logic goes well, if they were "born that way" they can't "help it" and why would a "loving" God punish someone who can't help their feelings.  Since they can't "help it", therefore there must be validity to their feelings, i.e. their feelings must be "okay" and because their feelings are "okay" why would one deny them the ability to act on their feelings.  Denying them the ability to act on their innate, in-born, God-given feelings would be an act of cruelty and therefore the Church is wrong, the Scriptures are wrong and thousands of years of culture saying it is wrong is also wrong, not just wrong but evil.

Quite frankly, no one knows why or how someone develops homosexual feelings; there is absolutely 0 hard science saying there is a homosexual gene or anything of the sort.  To put a reason as to why someone feels like that is completely fruitless.  All we do know is that acting upon homosexual feelings is wrong and is evil.  The same as acting upon any other number of feelings we get . . . I get angry but I can't act upon it and go beat up some random stranger.

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11 minutes ago, carlimac said:

What's OD2?

The last entry in the Doctrine and Covenants: Official Declaration #2. It's the report of  the revelation rescinding the Priesthood Ban.

Lehi

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37 minutes ago, yjacket said:

Unfortunately, too many people, in and out of the church have replaced True religion with fake religion.  Their religion today is psychology.  The beginning of the end is when people start thinking that homosexuals or transgender people, or whoever are "born that way".  This is a very pernicious, false and down right evil thinking.

Because the logic goes well, if they were "born that way" they can't "help it" and why would a "loving" God punish someone who can't help their feelings.  Since they can't "help it", therefore there must be validity to their feelings, i.e. their feelings must be "okay" and because their feelings are "okay" why would one deny them the ability to act on their feelings.  Denying them the ability to act on their innate, in-born, God-given feelings would be an act of cruelty and therefore the Church is wrong, the Scriptures are wrong and thousands of years of culture saying it is wrong is also wrong, not just wrong but evil.

Quite frankly, no one knows why or how someone develops homosexual feelings; there is absolutely 0 hard science saying there is a homosexual gene or anything of the sort.  To put a reason as to why someone feels like that is completely fruitless.  All we do know is that acting upon homosexual feelings is wrong and is evil.  The same as acting upon any other number of feelings we get . . . I get angry but I can't act upon it and go beat up some random stranger.

Yes, I get all this. It's frustrating because religious logic makes no sense to them, in fact it's offensive to those who want to believe they are shackled to their attractions.    I wouldn't be surprised to find out that yes, some are "born that way" with some feelings, mannerisms, interests that culturally usually are attributed to the opposite sex. Maybe their amorous (meaning they just love hanging out with and being close to my own gender)  feelings toward the same sex also were part of their genetic make-up. But in no way do I believe the impulse to copulate with the same sex is inborn. That's what society has told them. Now that the world is telling them that all these "feelings"  mean they are gay...well, by golly,  they must be true to themselves. But when asked when they first learned what it meant to be gay, they will all categorically deny they ever learned it from anyone else.   

So that's my theory of the day. Don't know if it's true, but I do know for a fact that if men were to perpetuate the the species with other men, male anatomy would have been created to accommodate that activity. Same with women creating more humans with women. But it wasn't. So biologically and physically (by which we were created by our maker) it was never meant to be. 

 

As far as the apostasy part goes, I guess it's such a personal thing that I may never know how such and such an individual really feels. but I'm pretty sure I recognize blasphemy and disrespect for the prophet when I see it. That's at least a step down the road to apostasy. 

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22 hours ago, carlimac said:

Doesn't this qualify as personal apostasy?  

But the fact that it so closely resembles opinions of some "active, temple going" members of my family and friends gives me a pit in my stomach. Frankly, it scares the bejeebers out of me. 

What say y'all?

I think it does, or at the very least is placing oneself on the pathway that leads there.  This belief is in direct contradiction to the Gospel and modern revelations.

 

"The Family: A Proclamation to the World" defines the official position of the church on family, marriage, gender roles, and human sexuality.

Some key points from the Proclamation:

Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.

The family is ordained of God and central to God's plan.

As a beloved spirit son or daughter of Heavenly Parents, each person has a divine nature and destiny.

Gender is an essential characteristic of human identity before, during, and after life on Earth.

Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity.

Sexual relations are sacred and properly take place only between a married man and woman.

Procreation is divinely appointed, and therefore life is sacred and an important part of God's plan.

Disintegration of the family will bring "calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."

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7 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

The last entry in the Doctrine and Covenants: Official Declaration #2. It's the report of  the revelation rescinding the Priesthood Ban.

Lehi

So  Modorbund, why should this not have happened? Or did I miss some sarcasm there?

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39 minutes ago, carlimac said:

So  Modorbund, why should this not have happened? Or did I miss some sarcasm there?

Absolute sarcasm. The priesthood ban is the go-to argument I hear on this issue (and I could see the echo of it in your OP). Quoting your friend:

22 hours ago, carlimac said:

Yes, I believe it’s entirely possible that they are dead wrong... With how deep prejudices run against LGBT+ people, I would not be at all surprised that the church is wrong yet again, too blinded by centuries of homo/transphobia to be even willing to hear another answer. ...  I look at the fruits of the church’s teachings on LGBT issues, and they are rotten and poisonous. Suicide, disastrous mixed-orientation marriages, years of silent suffering, denial of joy in this life in the hope that somehow they’ll be “fixed” in the next life. There is no God in that .

You see, the current policy is borne of cultural prejudice just like the priesthood policy came from cultural prejudice. Now that such bigotry is finally waning, God can step in and move us in the right direction just like He did in 1978.

My sarcasm is that the argument can be reversed and just as valid. With a nod to @The Folk Prophet's old signature, once you've accepted that the highest councils of the Church are swayed by public pressure and attitudes, how do you determine when they bowed to public will and when they spoke the mind of God? The assumption is the leadership went along with the prevailing culture in 1878 but 1978 was a revelation. Well, why not turn it the other way? Brigham got the revelation and Kimball bowed to public pressure. The rest of society has progressed with respect to LGBT issues, its time for the Church to leave outdated mores and listen to a loving God. Really? We're assuming presentism as the voice of God?! Wouldn't it be better if God had representatives on the earth today to speak for Him?

I'm fully on board with both Official Declarations.

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On 6/8/2016 at 7:16 PM, carlimac said:

Huh! Well then are the prophet and apostles wrong?   Her answer,"  Yes, I believe it’s entirely possible that they are dead wrong... With how deep prejudices run against LGBT+ people, I would not be at all surprised that the church is wrong yet again, too blinded by centuries of homo/transphobia to be even willing to hear another answer. ...  I look at the fruits of the church’s teachings on LGBT issues, and they are rotten and poisonous. Suicide, disastrous mixed-orientation marriages, years of silent suffering, denial of joy in this life in the hope that somehow they’ll be “fixed” in the next life. There is no God in that . "

It's true. There is no God in homosexuality.

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On June 8, 2016 at 7:16 PM, carlimac said:

So...it's "Pride" month apparently. I would have been happily naive to the whole affair but it's there splashed across headlines. I read the news. Can't miss that it's being celebrated. As many of you know, it raises my blood pressure a tad.  Much to my dismay, many good friends and relatives whom I understood to be conservative and full believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ are now joining this "celebration" shamelessly, while still professing to be active in the Church.  My question is: How does one reconcile the chasm between supporting, "liking" on facebook (which I know is a nebulous sort of raising the right hand- but there it is), condoning and "loving" (because it's all about love) those living that lifestyle without any condemnation...and sustaining the prophet and church leaders.

I recently had a little conversation with a straight (married to a man) LDS woman,  who is a very big supporter of all things Gay: pride parades, legislation, etc.   I asked her that question and she very bluntly replied,     "It’s simple–I don’t believe that having relationships or getting married or starting families with the person you love is wrong. It’s really that easy. And it’s prideful to assume you know the will of God regarding other people’s relationships, or that it’s up to you to “condone” or “condemn” their actions."  

Huh! Well then are the prophet and apostles wrong?   Her answer,"  Yes, I believe it’s entirely possible that they are dead wrong... With how deep prejudices run against LGBT+ people, I would not be at all surprised that the church is wrong yet again, too blinded by centuries of homo/transphobia to be even willing to hear another answer. ...  I look at the fruits of the church’s teachings on LGBT issues, and they are rotten and poisonous. Suicide, disastrous mixed-orientation marriages, years of silent suffering, denial of joy in this life in the hope that somehow they’ll be “fixed” in the next life. There is no God in that . "

Doesn't this qualify as personal apostasy?  

I know I shouldn't sweat some random blogger's opinion. But the fact that it so closely resembles opinions of some "active, temple going" members of my family and friends gives me a pit in my stomach. Frankly, it scares the bejeebers out of me. 

What say y'all?

Of course it is, if you are seeking judgement on the provided quotes. Sooner or later such will come to a crossroads and make a choice.

In general i find it more saddening than any other emotion. Where it gets scary is when it gets mixed up in politics.

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Gay actions are a sin. Sorry. Marriage is a super sacred ordinance that requires a man and a woman. Period. It will work with no other. Never has there ever been a time when Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ have said that same-sex marriages are OK with his plan. And besides, why are we defending sexual attraction as if it's the end all be all of love? How utterly false and ridiculous a notion. As utterly ridiculous actually as the gross prejudices the LGBT crowd used to have to contend with en masse in the past.

And for anyone that doesn't believe me, read: http://www.joshweed.com/2012/06/club-unicorn-in-which-i-come-out-of.html

It's one of the best talks on Mormonism and LGBT I've ever seen. In fact, it's actually just an incredibly inspiring talk all around, so read it anyway, even if you do believe me.

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On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:16 PM, carlimac said:

 

Doesn't this qualify as personal apostasy? 

I'd say it's on the road to apostasy, not necessarily full blown apostasy.  A person can always repent and change.  It's very obvious this person has been taken in by the world.  That isn't a judgment, just an observation based on comparing her statements to the stance of the First Presidency.  The two statements are diametrically opposed.  Here is an excerpt from some teachings of Pres. Harold B. Lee.

 

Quote

The Road to Apostasy

People apostatize due to ignorance or sin. In nine cases out of ten—I'd say in every case—those who apostatize from this church do it from one of two reasons, either because of their ignorance of the doctrine or because of their sinfulness and falling away from the truth. (60-04)

Beware of those who fight against the Saints. Now, again, the Lord has warned us of those who fight against Zion or who betray their sacred trust as holders of the priesthood. We would do well to remember what the Lord has promised to this people. The Lord declared, "How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints." (D&C 121:33.)

There are those among us who would set themselves up as critics of the Church, saying that the Church has gone out of the way. Some splintered apostate clans even from the beginning of this dispensation have made fictitious claims to authority. We should warn these, as well as those who are in danger of being led astray, of what the Prophet predicted. He said, "That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is [on the way] to apostasy; and if he does not repent, [he] will apostatize, as God lives" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938], pp. 156-57). (65-07, p. 1153)

To "kick against the pricks" is the first step in falling away. In this day the Lord has given us a revelation that suggests clearly the reasons why some men fail of their blessings. [Quotes D&C 121:35-38.]

That, it seems to me, is about the progressive way that men begin to fall away. They first begin to "kick against the pricks." I have wondered what that means. These no doubt are the pricks of the gospel. I wonder, perhaps, if they are not those things referred to by President J. Reuben Clark Jr. as "restraints"—the restraints of the Word of Wisdom, the restraints imposed in keeping the Sabbath day holy, injunctions against card playing, the restraints imposed by following the welfare program, and so on. These are the restraints against which some people seem to rebel and are kicking constantly against—the "pricks" of the gospel.

I remember in this connection what somebody said in classifying humankind. He said there were only three kinds of people in the world—"Saints, Ain'ts, and Complaints," and perhaps the "Complaints" would represent those who seem to be kicking against the pricks. These are the ones who "persecute the Saints" and, finally, "fight against God." (47-05, pp. 222-23)

A liberal in the Church hasn't a testimony. Unfortunately, some are among us who claim to be Church members but are somewhat like the scoffers in Lehi's vision—standing aloof and seemingly inclined to hold in derision the faithful who choose to accept Church authorities as God's special witnesses of the gospel and His agents in directing the affairs of the Church.

There are those in the Church who speak of themselves as liberals who, as one of our former Presidents has said, "read by the lamp of their own conceit" (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], p. 373). One time I asked one of our Church educational leaders how he would define a liberal in the Church. He answered in one sentence: "A liberal in the Church is merely one who does not have a testimony."

Dr. John A. Widtsoe, former member of the Quorum of the Twelve and an eminent educator, made a statement relative to this word liberal as it applied to those in the Church. This is what he said: "The self-called liberal [in the Church] is usually one who has broken with the fundamental principles or guiding philosophy of the group to which he belongs. He claims membership in an organization but does not believe in its basic concepts; and sets out to reform it by changing its foundations. It is folly to speak of a liberal religion, if that religion claims that it rests upon unchanging truth."

And then Dr. Widtsoe concludes his statement with this: "It is well to beware of people who go about proclaiming that they or their churches are liberal. The probabilities are that the structure of their faith is built on sand and will not withstand the storms of truth." ("Evidences and Reconciliations," Improvement Era 44 [October 1941]: 609.)

Here again, to use the figure of speech in Lehi's vision, they are those who are blinded by the mists of darkness and as yet have not a firm grasp on the "iron rod." (71-10, pp. 7-8)

Beware of those who say the Church is wrong and is being led astray. As to leadership in the Church, a mark of caution that the Prophet Joseph gave was, that person who rises up to condemn the Church, saying that he himself is righteous, then know surely that he is on the road to apostasy, and unless he repents, he will apostatize, as surely as God lives (see History of the Church 3:385).

Now, you beware of that man, no matter what his station, who says that the Church is all wrong and he now is going out on a separate course as an individual, taking the leadership in this or that, that the Church is wrong and is failing in its leadership. I say, beware, beware of the leadership of such a one—one who presumes to speak in the name of a prophet, living or dead. (65-05, p. 10)

 

 

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16 hours ago, carlimac said:

Oh man! You don't even want to know. It's not pretty.  :unsure:

So, if they're so bad that I don't want to know, then isn't it a good thing to have them scared out of you?:clown: (Only Stephen King can show us how scary clowns really are.)

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I am not sure that defining apostasy by doctrine is completely rational.  I think of apostasy as the act of treason and sudission against G-d, his laws, covenants, priesthood and appointed servants.  I don't think that being mental or crazy is a sin but can lead to sin.  I do wonder what a person has to do to convince the world that they gone mental and have lost connection to reality.

 

The Traveler 

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