Orlando shooting


Backroads
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Indeed.  Condolences to the victims and their loved ones.  Disagree though I may with their lifestyle, in this instance the bottom line is that they were humans, they were Americans, and they were supposed to be free and secure.  

With regard to Islamic extremism, it will be interesting to see whether the "they hate us for our freedoms" argument now gets a little more traction than it hitherto has.

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5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Indeed.  Condolences to the victims and their loved ones.  Disagree though I may with their lifestyle, in this instance the bottom line is that they were humans, they were Americans, and they were supposed to be free and secure.  

With regard to Islamic extremism, it will be interesting to see whether the "they hate us for our freedoms" argument now gets a little more traction than it hitherto has.

I wonder, too. I do not want to use this as a "hooray, now My Special Agenda gets attention" moment, yet my mind keeps drifting that way regardless. Sometimes things just have to hit one close to home.

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Guest MormonGator
12 minutes ago, Backroads said:

I wonder, too. I do not want to use this as a "hooray, now My Special Agenda gets attention" moment, yet my mind keeps drifting that way regardless. Sometimes things just have to hit one close to home.

 We live near Orlando (relatively speaking, about an hour and a half away). Even though we've only been living in Florida for a short time, we've been coming down to Orlando for over 10 years now and we both love the city. We go there all the time (sometimes five-six times a month) It hit LadyGator and I hard. It's so, so awful. We don't go to gay clubs, but we do go to  concerts at clubs from time to time. Not to over personalize what happened, but it is pretty staggering. 

Edited by MormonGator
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Very serious stuff. :( I pulled this from the Cop-centered Facebook page Survive the Streets: 

In what is described as a hail of gunfire, an Orlando (FL) PD SWAT officer took a round to his ballistic helmet while he and his team made entry into the nightclub and killed the suspect responsible for the attack. The helmet did its job, and the officer escaped with non-life threatening injuries.

 

NightClubHelmet.jpg

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Guest MormonGator
8 minutes ago, yjacket said:

The only thing needed was one good marksman inside with a conceal carry and a well-placed shot.

Amen. Widespread firearms ownership is the best deterrent to mass shootings. 

Sadly, the club probably didn't allow guns. Florida is a somewhat gun friendly state even though our laws are actually a little tough. Many of our residents (even in our cities) own firearms. 

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Orlando was one of the towns back in the '80's that gave new life to conceal carry.  They were having serial rapes happening, big news story for months and months.  Then there was a very publicized "All the women in Orlando come to this park and learn how to use your conceal carry gun" event.  Very well-covered in the news.  Rapes went down 80% and stayed there.  The total number of rapes in Orlando and the surrounding area stayed about the same, meaning that the rapists just sought victims outside of Orlando, but yes, Orlando fixed their rape problem.  I think John Lott coined this the "Orlando effect" in one of his books.

 

 

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Cultural shift happening in America right now.  CNN headline says "Gunman Pro-ISIS".  Right up there up top, in big letters.  

It's not some hidden thing any more.  It's now ok to admit to ourselves that ISIS is our enemy, and are currently engaged in killing Americans on our own soil.  I mean, plenty of us has known of this huge terrorist problem for a long time - but this is the first time it's been so blatantly admitted to by mainstream media.  Even with the San Bernadino shooting, as obvious as it was, still half the nation argued against it having anything to do with Islamic terror. 

No more.  We're finally admitting it to ourselves.  And that's a good first step.

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Guest MormonGator
9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Cultural shift happening in America right now.  CNN headline says "Gunman Pro-ISIS".  Right up there up top, in big letters.  

It's not some hidden thing any more.  It's now ok to admit to ourselves that ISIS is our enemy, and are currently engaged in killing Americans on our own soil.  I mean, plenty of us has known of this huge terrorist problem for a long time - but this is the first time it's been so blatantly admitted to by mainstream media.  Even with the San Bernadino shooting, as obvious as it was, still half the nation argued against it having anything to do with Islamic terror. 

No more.  We're finally admitting it to ourselves.  And that's a good first step.

 The issue isn't ISIS. It's radicals in America. We need to take a hard, uncomfortable look at that. Destroying ISIS in the middle east won't do much. 

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Just saw this thread now - it's good to hear that, despite LDS' views on homosexuality, everyone's able to recognise how much of a tragedy this shooting is. As Derpy Hooves has said, Ramadan has just started ... hopefully there won't be more things like this throughout the rest of the month. Thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of those involved in this tragedy.

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16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 The issue isn't ISIS. It's radicals in America. We need to take a hard, uncomfortable look at that. Destroying ISIS in the middle east won't do much. 

Yes and no. Indisputable fact #1. The good 'ol US of A created the environment for ISIS to grow and become a major player.  The US used and coordinated with elements of Al-Qaeda in Iraq (former ISIS) to overthrow Assad in Syria. John McCain met with and helped to fund the Free Syrian Army, which later ended up joining ISIS.  Check any pictures of ISIS rebels they are using US military equipment . . .equipment that was either left in Iraq or given to "rebels"

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/08/us-backed-moderate-free-syrian-army-factions-join-islamic-state-terror-group/

 The US has stuck it's nose into the quagmire of Middle Eastern politics and has no idea who is friend or foe, funds both side when it suits us and then wonders why it gets stabbed in the back.

So yes, you are right destroying ISIS in the middle east won't do much except create more chaos.  The people over there need to solve their own problems.

Radicalization inside the US can be a little bit of a challenge, but many of these US citizens were born outside the US and then became a citizen (the wife in the San Bernadino was born in Pakistan). It's a problem based on very bad US policies.  Up until about the 1960s the only people who were really allowed to immigrate into the United States were people from Anglo-Saxton countries. There were a couple of reasons for this that our forefathers realized.  1) It is much easy for individuals to assimilate into a country when they look like everyone else. 2) It is much easier to assimilate when the cultures have basic things in common like religion. Go most places in the world and they recognize these facts.  A homogenous culture ends up causing less conflict and strife.  Unfortunately, the US immigration policies went haywire and now it doesn't matter, we accept anyone into this country and consequently we are having some serious cultural issues.

People hate Trump b/c he supposedly says "racists" things . .. it ain't racist it's a fact.  When you show up to a political protest of an American President and you are waving a Mexican flag, something is seriously wrong. When you have a completely different set of underpinning moral/religious values (i.e. Muslim) combining cultures is very, very difficult.

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Of course we're not glad that any of our innocent brothers and sisters died. Not believing in a behavior doesn't mean you want the behave-ors (is that a word?) dead. 

I really wish people would stop making it a pro-gun, anti-gun, pro-homosexual, anti-homosexual issue. It's a terrorist issue. Someone went in and shot a bunch of people who didn't deserve it. It's no more or less than that. 

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27 minutes ago, TilKingdomCome said:

Just saw this thread now - it's good to hear that, despite LDS' views on homosexuality, everyone's able to recognise how much of a tragedy this shooting is. 

Yeap.  The only reason someone deserves death is if they have killed another person. Homosexual behavior is a gross moral sin, but as long as it does not infringe upon another's rights there is no reason to deprive the person committing the action of their life, liberty or pursuit of happiness.  

We all have the God-given right to screw up our own life however we see fit as long as we don't physically hurt someone else or their property in the process.

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Guest MormonGator
7 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Of course we're not glad that any of our innocent brothers and sisters died. Not believing in a behavior doesn't mean you want the behave-ors (is that a word?) dead. 

I really wish people would stop making it a pro-gun, anti-gun, pro-homosexual, anti-homosexual issue. It's a terrorist issue. Someone went in and shot a bunch of people who didn't deserve it. It's no more or less than that. 

 I agree with you in theory. The sad truth is that not everyone agrees with us and because one side will use it as a stick to bash our values we better get used to it or our rights will slip away. Believe me, I wish everyone agreed with you and I Eowyn and just called it a terrorist attack, for sure.  

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11 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

they used an armored car...imagine that.

It is hard to argue with success.

The question is, against one gunman, was that armored car the most effective means of subduing him?

At what cost? We can easily see the success. It's more difficult to see what didn't happen. It's hard to tally the effects, the costs (more than financial: they are myriad). It's the distinction Bastiat made in economics, the seen v. the unseen.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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10 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

It is hard to argue with success.

The question is, against one gunman, was that armored car the most effective means of subduing him?

At what cost? We can easily see the success. It's more difficult to see what didn't happen. It's hard to tally the effects, the costs (more than financial: they are myriad). It's the distinction Bastiat made in economics, the seen v. the unseen.

Lehi

The armored car was used to punch a hole in the wall allowing 20 hostages to escape while SWAT made entry (see neurotypical's picture above), who then shot and killed the terrorist.  Sounds like a very effective plan to me.  I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

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32 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

The armored car was used to punch a hole in the wall allowing 20 hostages to escape while SWAT made entry (see neurotypical's picture above), who then shot and killed the terrorist.  Sounds like a very effective plan to me.  I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

I'm not speaking only of the tactical situation.

And, again I ask if there was no other way, a way that wouldn't cost so much in terms of liberty, of money, of loss of connectedness between the police and the public.

As I said, it is difficult to argue with success, but that is more because we can't measure the alternatives, they not being seen. And, because unseen, ignored altogether.

Lehi

 

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ugh! The internet is full of chaos right now about who or what is really to blame. Gays want this to be about violence towards gays, requiring even more protection for them. Liberals want this to be only about gun control. They're hedging mightily that it has anything to do with ISIS. Conservatives are saying the killer pledged support to ISIS so yes it's a terrorist attack and this would have happened with gun control or not. AND wiping egg off their faces about saying bad things about gays."Well, we never said we want to kill them."  The LDS Church is simply offering condolences to victims and their families. LGBT supporters/ Mormon haters are saying, we don't want your sympathy because you won't let us take the sacrament or baptize our children in your church. Some Disney afficionadoas are even asking for prayers for Orlando because that's where Disneyland is. they don't care much for the victims, just that their beloved Disneyland is so close to the danger.  :confused:  What. A. Mess.  

My take is that it's probably a combination of ISIS influence and homophobia (as stated by the gunman's father) perhaps from Islamic influence. He was American born though so it isn't a case of some militant refugee crashing a gay party. I don't think this should be about gun control.  I've never been either pro-gun or anti gun because I don't care for them but I don't care if other's do.  But these killing events are starting to get crazy. Is this kind of thing even controllable?  I don't blame the guns themselves. I do put a big portion of the blame on Hollywood, video games, mental insecurity and instability due to the pickle our country is in and also the lack of fathers to teach kids how to deal with life and perhaps mothers MIA, too.  And the media that plasters the killers names across the headlines. They've made their statement and gotten their day of fame.

Edited by carlimac
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