Orlando shooting


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Guest MormonGator
2 minutes ago, TilKingdomCome said:

It wasn't an ISIS thing, but the sad and uncomfortable truth is that the shooter was radicalized in some ways and the catalyst was him seeing two men kiss. Like all decent people, we are disgusted by what this monster did. I don't care how you feel about homosexuality. You aren't human if you aren't outraged, devastated and horrified. 

How we deal with the outrage is the issue in dispute. Some people want more gun control. Some people want more immigration control. Some of us don't want either immigration control or gun control. There is no easy answer to this. 

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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:
8 minutes ago, TilKingdomCome said:

It wasn't an ISIS thing

I don't know what "an ISIS thing" is, apparently.

The shooter (who'd want me to write his name) called 911 and said he was with ISIS. He wrote a list of people to kill (groups, not individuals). He went to a mosque and listened to an imam who'd said it was compassionate to kill homosexuals. He went to Mecca.

Then he went to a night club and wounded 100 people, half of whom have died.

Nope, definitely not "an ISIS thing".

Lehi

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, LeSellers said:

 

Nope, definitely not "an ISIS thing".

 

Now you are getting it. Only at the end he pledged allegiance to ISIS because he was too stupid and evil to know any better. He would have pledged allegiance to any other radical Muslim group. The issue isn't an ISIS thing, it's a radical Muslim thing. ISIS will fade away shortly like Al-Queda did, but there will be another radical Muslim group to deal with. So no, it's not an ISIS thing. 

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3 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I don't know what "an ISIS thing" is, apparently.

The shooter (who'd want me to write his name) called 911 and said he was with ISIS. He wrote a list of people to kill (groups, not individuals). He went to a mosque and listened to an imam who'd said it was compassionate to kill homosexuals. He went to Mecca.

Then he went to a night club and wounded 100 people, half of whom have died.

Nope, definitely not "an ISIS thing".

Lehi

It wasn't "an ISIS thing" in the sense that no ISIS leader said "Mr <Name Redated> we want you to go kill people in this club on this date at this time"

How the idea that ISIS is radicalizing people into totally random acts of violence is suppose to be reassuring I do not know.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

The issue isn't an ISIS thing, it's a radical Muslim thing. ISIS will fade away shortly like Al-Queda did, but there will be another radical Muslim group to deal with. So no, it's not an ISIS thing. 

So, Suni v. Shiia aside, what is "an ISIS thing" that makes it any different, qualitatively, from any other "radical Muslim thing"?

I see no evidence that ISIS/L "will fade away shortly like Al-Queda did". al queda still exists. The reason, as I have observed it, that the radical Muslims of the world have left al queda is to join ISIS because al queda isn't radical enough. If anything takes its place, it will be more radical still, hardly less.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

The issue isn't an ISIS thing, it's a radical Muslim thing.

I'm not sure that the distinction is that important in this context.  You're right that sooner or later it'll go away and some other will take its place, which means that the names change but the tune doesn't.  10 years ago when someone referenced radical Islam they referenced Al Qaeda because it was the most well known.  Go back ten more years and it's Hezbollah.  Ten years before that it was the PLO. 

And the band plays on...

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Guest MormonGator
10 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

 

So, Suni v. Shiia aside, what is "an ISIS thing" that makes it any different, qualitatively, from any other "radical Muslim thing"?

I see no evidence that ISIS/L "will fade away shortly like Al-Queda did". al queda still exists. The reason, as I have observed it, that the radical Muslims of the world have left al queda is to join ISIS because al queda isn't radical enough. If anything takes its place, it will be more radical still, hardly less.

Lehi

Because the issue is bigger than ISIS. It infects all the Muslim world.

 

10 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I'm not sure that the distinction is that important in this context.  You're right that sooner or later it'll go away and some other will take its place, which means that the names change but the tune doesn't.  10 years ago when someone referenced radical Islam they referenced Al Qaeda because it was the most well known.  Go back ten more years and it's Hezbollah.  Ten years before that it was the PLO. 

And the band plays on...

Exactly my point as well.  Better said than I could it, for sure. 

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So, yes indeed, it absolutely, beyond the shadow of a doubt, was "an ISIS thing".

Let's get things clear - militant Islamic jihadis try to do horrible things in two ways.  One way is by having those directly associated with the organization go and do stuff.  The other way is to inspire grassroots efforts from people with no official affiliation.  

So no, the guy never met with ISIS, wasn't a part of the organization.  Yes indeed, he was radicalized by ISIS, probably because he sought out and consumed the stuff they produce on the internet.  He acted as a grassroots terrorist for ISIS.   He was self-radicalized.  A "lone wolf".  

The Director of the FBI, James Comey, said that Omar Mateen spoke with 911 multiple times and told the operator he pledged loyalty to Islamic State.  

Folks, I know we want to believe otherwise.  We need to be rational here. 

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Guest MormonGator
4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, yes indeed, it absolutely, beyond the shadow of a doubt, was "an ISIS thing".

Let's get things clear - militant Islamic jihadis try to do horrible things in two ways.  One way is by having those directly associated with the organization go and do stuff.  The other way is to inspire grassroots efforts from people with no official affiliation.  

So no, the guy never met with ISIS, wasn't a part of the organization.  Yes indeed, he was radicalized by ISIS, probably because he sought out and consumed the stuff they produce on the internet.  He acted as a grassroots terrorist for ISIS.   He was self-radicalized.  A "lone wolf".  

The Director of the FBI, James Comey, said that Omar Mateen spoke with 911 multiple times and told the operator he pledged loyalty to Islamic State.  

Folks, I know we want to believe otherwise.  We need to be rational here. 

Nope, it's much worse than that. He was radicalized by Islam. 

Edited by MormonGator
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I don't get it.  I'm a good little mormon boy - have a calling, am a home-teacher, etc.  If I start researching stuff online and decide to make a 911 call and say I'm about to do something horrible to protest the US actions against Warren Jeffs, was I radicalized by Mormonism?

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4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

So no, the guy never met with ISIS, wasn't a part of the organization.  Yes indeed, he was radicalized by ISIS, probably because he sought out and consumed the stuff they produce on the internet.  He acted as a grassroots terrorist for ISIS.   He was self-radicalized.  A "lone wolf". 

Which is exactly what ISIS wants to have happen...  Top down leadership actions we stand a chance of begin detected and begin stopped....  Finding and stopping every disgruntled person out there who will act on it is a huge task given the huge amount of disgruntled person who might do something but isn't far enough gone to pull the trigger

 

 

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

I don't get it.  I'm a good little mormon boy - have a calling, am a home-teacher, etc.  If I start researching stuff online and decide to make a 911 call and say I'm about to do something horrible to protest the US actions against Warren Jeffs, was I radicalized by Mormonism?

No one here is an expert on ISIS or Islam, we should all remember that upfront. 

In the case you describe yes, you'd be radicalized by Mormonism-but not by the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He was radicalized by Islam. 

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8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

No one here is an expert on ISIS or Islam, we should all remember that upfront. 

In the case you describe yes, you'd be radicalized by Mormonism-but not by the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He was radicalized by Islam. 

All true.  I just don't think it's necessarily incorrect to refer to it as an ISIS problem precisely because it's all interchangeable.  I guess people will probably generally associate it with ISIS as an organization because it sounds less bigoted to our sensitive culture than associating it with Islam per se.

I'm not accusing anybody here of that motive, I just think that's how it'll play out on the mass media.

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, unixknight said:

All true.  I just don't think it's necessarily incorrect to refer to it as an ISIS problem precisely because it's all interchangeable.  I guess people will probably generally associate it with ISIS as an organization because it sounds less bigoted to our sensitive culture than associating it with Islam per se.

I'm not accusing anybody here of that motive, I just think that's how it'll play out on the mass media.

That all true as well, for sure. 

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I'm not an expert, but I've got fairly decent pipelines into people who are.  They've explained why they use language they use, and it makes sense to me.  And they all say it's an ISIS thing, so that's what I'm going with.  

Here's an LDS expert on Islam but not ISIS: 
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2016/06/on-orlando-today.html

Here's an expert on Islam and ISIS, currently happening live:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-watch-live-fbi-director-james-comey-1465835139-htmlstory.html

Here's an expert on Islam and ISIS from the private sector:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03x9wfy

I got the FBI director, a professor of Islamic Studies, and a president of a strategic forecasting organization all saying it's an ISIS thing.  Got a guy on the interwebs with an alligator-wearing-a-sweater avatar saying otherwise.  I love ya man, but gotta go with the people in the know here.  

 

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Guest MormonGator
2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

.  Got a guy on the interwebs with an alligator-wearing-a-sweater avatar saying otherwise.  I love ya man, but gotta go with the people in the know here.  

 

Hey pal say what you want about ISIS and Islam, but leave the Gators out of this! Chomp chomp! (Totally playing NT, we good.) 

If ISIS magically disappeared tomorrow, would we still have to worry about these attacks? Of course we would. It's a radical Islam thing. 

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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

No one here is an expert on ISIS or Islam, we should all remember that upfront. 

We may not be "experts", but that doesn't mean we are ignorant, either.

I don't claim to expertise on Islam, but I did take two classes in it back in 1978~9, and the focus was on the positive side of Islam. We barely covered the evilocity thereof. When the atrocity of 2001 occurred, my family (including grandchildren and spouses) were on vacation/family reunion in Salt lake City. We woke up to the news just before the second plane hit the Trade Center. We watched that one live.

When we came home, I taught my Primary class what I knew about Islam. I regret that because what I knew was a lie, at least it was only a tiny fraction of the truth — a lie by omission. It old them that Islam was a religion of peace and that Muslims weren't violent. I have learned otherwise in the intervening decade plus.

Most Muslims are probably peaceful, but a minority do not support violence tacitly. Most (<90%, by some measures) want to replace whatever government they live under with Sharriah. Most tolerate rape, honor killings, murder (in the name of compassion), and a host of other insanities because of their religion. And almost none would defend Christians or Jews who opposed this transition.

I don't claim to be an expert, but what I do know is that Islam is scary. It is not a religion of peace.

Lehi

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, LeSellers said:

 

I don't claim to be an expert, but what I do know is that Islam is scary. It is not a religion of peace.

 

You are aware I agree with you on that point, right? Or are you just arguing of the sake of arguing? 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

You are aware I agree with you on that point, right? Or are you just arguing of the sake of arguing? 

Not arguing, just underscoring the matter.

Lehi

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Guest MormonGator
2 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Not arguing, just underscoring the matter.

Lehi

Yeah, I've said several times that it's a radical Islamic thing. So obviously I'm not wild about radical Islam. 

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

If ISIS magically disappeared tomorrow, would we still have to worry about these attacks? Of course we would. It's a radical Islam thing. 

Folks who understand the concept of Insha'alla would disagree with you to a certain extent, and could speak in-depth for an hour or more on why.  Briefly, if we stopped their incredibly successful social media recruiting efforts, stopped all the money flowing around to loob global jihad, and killed all ISIS folks in their homelands, um, yeah, deadly ISIS attacks in the US would logically drop in national priority to just under the need to prepare for a zombie uprising.  Because basically, all the Muslims would see what God willed with the ISIS people and would choose accordingly.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Yeah, I've said several times that it's a radical Islamic thing. So obviously I'm not wild about radical Islam. 

Where we may disagree is that you, apparently, believe that there is an unradical Islam, where I believe that, if it exists, it is a minor minority of all Islam. Islam has, by its own fruit, demonstrated that it has been "radical" from the VII and hasn't changed in any meaningful way.

Lehi

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Folks who understand the concept of Insha'alla would disagree with you to a certain extent, and could speak in-depth for an hour or more on why.  Briefly, if we stopped their incredibly successful social media recruiting efforts, stopped all the money flowing around to loob global jihad, and killed all ISIS folks in their homelands, um, yeah, deadly ISIS attacks in the US would logically drop in national priority to just under the need to prepare for a zombie uprising.

It wouldn't. Another radical Islamic group would sprout out and we'd be talking about them radicalizing people instead. 

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Guest MormonGator
10 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Where we may disagree is that you, apparently, believe that there is an unradical Islam, where I believe that, if it exists, it is a minor minority of all Islam. Islam has, by its own fruit, demonstrated that it has been "radical" from the VII and hasn't changed in any meaningful way.

Lehi

That is correct, that's where we disagree. 

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