Orlando shooting

[LeSellers]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Another radical Islamic group would sprout out and we'd be talking about them radicalizing people instead. 

When Thomas Jefferson said, "Millions for defense, not one penny in tribute," it was about the Muslim pirates on the Barbary coast. He sent the Marines "to the shores of Tripoli" and defeated them decisively. We didn't have much of a problem with radical Islam for another century. The following is apocryphal, but, if true (and there is evidence it is), we didn't have any more serious trouble with Islam for another half century.

Quote

In 1941, TIME ran a letter to the editor from a soldier named J. R. McKey who had served with Pershing in the Philippines decades before. In the letter, McKey describes using pigs in burials to deter Muslim insurgent activities, but does not ascribe the act to Pershing.

McKey wrote, “U.S. soldiers … had a pretty good cure for juramentado [Moro swordsmen] activities. Knowing the horror of the Mohammedan for any contact with swine, and particularly with its blood, these American roughnecks, when they had killed a juramentado, held for him a very public funeral. The body of the defunct bad man having been deposited in the grave, a pig was brought, stuck, its blood sprinkled freely over the D B M, the dead pig thrown in with him, and the burial completed.”

Some reports do say that Pershing was engaged in burying Muslims with pigs or throwing pig’s blood on them. According to the History News Network, a Chicago Daily Tribune article from 1927 describes Pershing sprinkling prisoners with pig’s blood, then setting them free to warn others of being doused with the blood. “Those drops of porcine gore proved more powerful than bullets,” the article wrote.

Like most bullies, Muslims are essentially cowards and they will back down when confronted in a credible way — defeated completely.

Our current leaders don't have the spine to go to war the way we did in Europe or in the Pacific. I have said that no one hates war more than soldiers, and I am one. But when the situation demands war, we must fight it without regard to delicacy: total, all-out war is the only way to destroy the culture that would destroy us.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

23 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

When Thomas Jefferson said, "Millions for defense, not one penny in tribute," it was about the Muslim pirates on the Barbary coast. He sent the Marines "to the shores of Tripoli" and defeated them decisively. 

Like most bullies, Muslims are essentially cowards and they will back down when confronted in a credible way 

Our current leaders don't have the spine to go to war the way we did in Europe or in the Pacific. I have said that no one hates war more than soldiers, and I am one. But when the situation demands war, we must fight it without regard to delicacy: total, all-out war is the only way to destroy the culture that would destroy us.

Lehi

 I know about the Barbary coast incident too. You aren't telling us something we don't already know. 

You are right on bullies, wrong on Muslims. Trying to start a war with an entire religion will lead to our annihilation as a civilization. In fact, if you want more terrorist attacks, start another war in the middle east.  There are huge amounts of Muslims in this country already and if Islam was the problem you think it is, we'd be having mass shootings daily. You are very, very wrong.

I do thank you for your service to the country. While I never served I support various veterans charities and have done so for years. 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by MormonGator

[NeuroTypical]

24 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Where we may disagree is that you, apparently, believe that there is an unradical Islam, where I believe that, if it exists, it is a minor minority of all Islam. Islam has, by its own fruit, demonstrated that it has been "radical" from the VII and hasn't changed in any meaningful way.

LeSellers, I would like to disagree with this characterization.  Further, I would like to issue a public challenge to you.  You live in the Denver area, right?

NT's public challenge to LeSellers:

Go with me to the next open house thrown by the Denver Islamic Society. 

Greetings and Peace be upon all of you!

The Denver Islamic Society strongly condemns the heinous terror attack that claimed the lives of tens of innocent people and left many more injured in Orlando, FL. 

The attack took place during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, when all Muslims are expected to boost their faith by fasting, reading the Holy Qur’an, visiting relatives and friends, and giving charity. Our Community feels deeply sorry such a violent act took place instead. We pray for a peaceful world full of love and tolerance. 

In peace,
DIS Administration

 They have an open house about every month.  Let's go ask them if they're in the minority or majority of Islam.

 

[LeSellers]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I know about the Barbary coast incident too. You aren't telling us something we don't already know. 

You are right on bullies, wrong on muslims. Trying to start a war with an entire religion will lead to our annihilation as a civilization. In fact, if you want more terrorist attacks, start another war in the middle east.  

No one thought you, or much of anyone with a modicum of an education, would be ignorant of the Barbary Pirates. It was background, nothing more.

You didn't capitalize "Muslim" aren't you afraid you'll offend them?

No one advocates starting "a war with an entire religion". Jefferson didn't do it, and neither did Pershing. What we need to do is prosecute war on the violent Islamists. We are not doing that. We're merely fighting them, and not doing a very good job of it, either. As soon as our military scores a hit, our political machine drags them back. It's Pork Chop Hill all over again, and again, and again.

Lehi

[anatess2]

16 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Where we may disagree is that you, apparently, believe that there is an unradical Islam, where I believe that, if it exists, it is a minor minority of all Islam. Islam has, by its own fruit, demonstrated that it has been "radical" from the VII and hasn't changed in any meaningful way.

Lehi

 

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

That is correct, that's where we disagree. 

 

Yep.  I disagree with that too.  2.75 million muslims in the USA didn't kill anybody.

[unixknight]

8 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

LeSellers, I would like to disagree with this characterization.  Further, I would like to issue a public challenge to you.  You live in the Denver area, right?

NT's public challenge to LeSellers:

Go with me to the next open house thrown by the Denver Islamic Society. 

 They have an open house about every month.  Let's go ask them if they're in the minority or majority of Islam.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

You didn't capitalize "Muslim" aren't you afraid you'll offend them?

 

No. 

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

 That was the first music video I ever saw,  and it scared me to death at the time 
 

[Guest MormonGator]

Sad he was so troubled, he was immensely talented. (Jackson)  

Edited June 13, 2016 by MormonGator

[LeSellers]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

7 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

You didn't capitalize "Muslim" aren't you afraid you'll offend them?

No. 

There were certainly a lot of people here who were afraid I'd offend them when I used the old spelling of Muslim a few months ago.

I think you'd offend them. There! You'd better be careful about how you treat that word.

Lehi

Edited June 13, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest MormonGator]

18 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

There were certainly a lot of people here who were afraid I'd offend them when I used the old spelling of Muslim a few months ago.

I think you'd offend them. There! You'd better be careful about how you treat that word.

Lehi

Will do. Sorry if I offended anyone, for sure. 

I do need to be more careful. I capitalize "Him" when talking about Jesus, I refer to the Dali Lama as "His Holiness" (same with the Pope) so I did make a mistake with not capitalizing Muslim.  

 

Fixed. :-) 

Edited June 13, 2016 by MormonGator

[LeSellers]

20 minutes ago, unixknight said:

[clip of Michael Jackson eating popcorn]

Sorry, I  have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Sorry, I  have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Lehi

It means he is just here for the comments. Eating popcorn and watching. 

[anatess2]

I tried eating popcorn without my lips meeting and ended up with popcorn all over my shirt.

[mirkwood]

I'll read the rest of the thread later.  Wanted to post this link

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/06/12/this-is-the-miltary-style-equipment-used-to-respond-to-the-attack-in-orlando/

[mirkwood]

3 hours ago, TilKingdomCome said:

http://deadline.com/2016/06/obama-orlando-shootings-not-isis-directed-1201771721/

So, apparently it wasn't an ISIS attack after all.

ISIS has been calling for lone wolf attacks for quite a while now.  So, despite the idiot in the White House statement that there was no external direction from ISIS, that is very much open to debate. 

I would go with an ISIS related lone wolf terrorist attack to describe this event.  I base that opinion on my training and experience.

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

it's a radical Muslim thing

Ok, if that is your point I agree.

Edited June 13, 2016 by mirkwood

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, mirkwood said:

Ok, it that is your point I agree.

It is. Sorry if I wasn't more articulate.

[TilKingdomCome]

23 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

ISIS has been calling for lone wolf attacks for quite a while now.  So, despite the idiot in the White House statement that there was no external direction from ISIS, that is very much open to debate. 

I would go with an ISIS related lone wolf terrorist attack to describe this event.  I base that opinion on my training and experience.

 

 

Sorry but I'd rather believe "that idiot in the White House" over you - you can't say that it was an ISIS related attack without proof. Even the guy's own dad (who also hates gays) thought it was wrong to murder them - thinking that they should have just let God punish them instead (his words not mine, obviously I don't think gays should be punished)

[unixknight]

17 minutes ago, TilKingdomCome said:

Sorry but I'd rather believe "that idiot in the White House" over you - you can't say that it was an ISIS related attack without proof.

So... the 911 calls the killer himself placed, claiming that it was about ISIS isn't proof?

One wonders what, exactly, it would take.

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

LeSellers, I would like to disagree with this characterization.  Further, I would like to issue a public challenge to you.  You live in the Denver area, right?

NT's public challenge to LeSellers:

Go with me to the next open house thrown by the Denver Islamic Society. 

 

 

 They have an open house about every month.  Let's go ask them if they're in the minority or majority of Islam.

 

LeSellers - what do you say?  I keep hearing you asking how to tell good Muslims from bad Muslims.  Let's you and I go meet these folks at their next open house, and form an opinion about which they are.  

Will you meet me there?

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, TilKingdomCome said:

 you can't say that it was an ISIS related attack without proof. 

Shooter calls 911 repeatedly and claims allegiance with ISIS.  ISIS claims credit for the attack.

You go ahead and believe that liar in the White House.

[LeSellers]

56 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

LeSellers - what do you say?  I keep hearing you asking how to tell good Muslims from bad Muslims.  Let's you and I go meet these folks at their next open house, and form an opinion about which they are.  

Will you meet me there?

You keep intimating that I don't know any Muslims. I do. Some of them I like. Some are jerks. Some are aloof, humble, odd, kind, and, in short, like other people.

That doesn't mean I can trust them. I've met some. I don't trust them because they have said ("they" being their most vocal, public, followed spokesmen) that they mean to kill us, overpopulate us by breeding with our women (and we're so stupid as to not have children so this will work), and terrorize us.

I wrote a response that never posted. Meeting them hasn't changed my mind favorably towards them, only unfavorably. The classes I took back in the '70s taught me that Islam was a peaceful religion. The school of hard knocks I've attended since has shown that to be false to the extreme. So, what would my meeting more (and from the same mosque that was home to the terrorist (and his father, also involved) at a Chicago (or New York) airport possibly do to improve my view? I drive past the DIS on our way to the zoo several times a year. There's another one about 1½ miles from my home.

The Haddith tells Muslims that it's okeh to lie if it advances the cause of Islam. There is no reason to believe anything they say. There is no reason to assume that a good Muslim today will be a good Muslim tomorrow. So, yeah, I could go with you, but it would not change anything. Remember, I've already changed my mind based on facts from around the world, and even more particularly from events right here. I believed Islam was a religion of peace. I can't believe that any more: their actions drown out their words. And their words are suspect.

The September 11 atrocity was by Muslims who were here. The San Bernadino attack was a USAan citizen. the underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, the Ft. Hood murderer, the Beltway Sniper, et cetera, etc, &c., all were home grown, Islamic terrorists, and the day before they killed dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of USAans, no one suspected them of anything but being good Muslims. And they were "good Muslims", but their definition and ours do not coincide.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, TilKingdomCome said:

Even the guy's own dad (who also hates gays) thought it was wrong to murder them - thinking that they should have just let God punish them instead (his words not mine, obviously I don't think gays should be punished)

The imam invited to speak at the Orlando mosque in March had said that it was compassionate to kill homosexuals. His father also said that he didn't think his son was all that religious (in spite of his going on hajj, and many other acts that indicate he was very religious). Where did he get the idea that, on seeing a couple of homosexual men kissing each other and touching each other in front of his own son, that it would be a good idea to kill 50 homosexuals in a gun-free zone? It wasn't on the side of a milk carton.

Lehi

[NeuroTypical]

7 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

You keep intimating that I don't know any Muslims.

Hang on there.  I'm intimating nothing.  You have made multiple statements, across years on this message board like this one:
So, if you can explain the method by which I can assure myself that the guy down the street or the hijabed-woman at the counter in Safeway isn't going to go jihad on my wife and me because she doesn't wear a scarf, I'd really like to know.

I am issuing a public challenge to you, that we go to the Denver Islamic Society open house, which they often hold, and go and answer the question for yourself.  Will you go?