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Orlando shooting

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21 minutes ago, Godless said:

 

Honest question: why did you buy your gun(s)? 

My 14-year-old has a shotgun.  For sport mostly.  He's an amazing shot at the skeets.  Duck, pheasant, quail sometimes.  And a rare boar hunt with slugs.  What can I say, he's a city boy.  My 12-year-old doesn't like guns so he didn't get one for his 12th bday (my husband's family's tradition - you get a rifle or a shotgun with your Aaronic priesthood).  Rather, he likes blow darts.  He built his own - laser guided even!  Can blow nails into a tree trunk.  He's never used it to hunt anything.  He just likes shooting inanimate targets with it.  He'd rather go fishing than go hunting.

My husband is more of the... I like shooting things guy... paper targets, soda cans, skeets, anything they got on the range.  He has several kinds on top of his 12 gauge for all purposes - sports, hunts, and home and personal defense.

Edited by anatess2

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22 minutes ago, Godless said:

 

Honest question: why did you buy your gun(s)? 

Self defense. I'm 5'06, 140 pounds soaking wet. If anything happened (God forbid, and yes I know the odds are slim)  I'd be totally unable to defend myself. 

I also enjoy shooting clay pigeons as well. Good stress relief. 

Edited by MormonGator

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14 minutes ago, unixknight said:

They came up because the claim you're making is that this is about saving lives. 

If your intent is to save lives, and not about guns per se, then you're barking up the wrong tree. 

Fair enough. I should have worded that better.

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Self defense. I'm 5'06, 140 pounds soaking wet. If anything happened (God forbid, and yes I know the odds are slim)  I'd be totally unable to defend myself.

I've been slammed to the ground in a way that would have been somewhere between painful and fatal had I not been a) taught to fall without hitting my head or getting limbs linned under me, b) expecting some sort of effective response, and c) on a nice squishy mat, by a 118 pound woman.  I weighed 209 at the time, and she was still a green belt.

Find yourself a Tomiki Aikido instructor who focuses on real-world self defense.  You'll quickly find that those guys who look like they're just throwing themselves on the ground to make sensei look brilliant are doing it because it's the only real alternative to having an arm ripped out of its socket or a wrist broken.

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55 minutes ago, David13 said:

Well, there is your problem. 

LEGISLATION DOES NOT, CANNOT AND WILL NOT STOP THESE THINGS.

California, Chicago and many other places have laws up and down the pine tree, and yet, you have drawn the real conclusion.

"We" can never stop this.  The legislation does not stop it. 

So since we can't stop it, there's no point trying to reduce it?

55 minutes ago, David13 said:

Maybe, let me suggest to you that it could be stopped WITHOUT legislation beyond what is on the books today IF THE LAW WAS ENFORCED.

California has undertaken a serious program of releasing violent offenders from prison.  On a wholesale basis.  Guess who commits the crimes.

I agree with this 100%. Enforce the law and keep violent criminals behind bars. No argument here. 

55 minutes ago, David13 said:

Why is it that people like you believe you have the solution to every ill in the world in your pocket?  You don't. 

I never said I do. People more liberal than me on this issue may feel that way, and they're idiots. But so long as these tragedies keep happening, we need to keep having these uncomfortable conversations. Because personally, I will never be okay with mass shootings continuing at the rate that they have been.

It's worth noting that I revisited Obama's executive action earlier this year to refresh myself on everything it entailed. I already knew that it had tightened some loopholes in regard to background checks/seller licenses and that it increased funding for mental health care. What I didn't realize is that it also gave addition resources to the ATF to track and confiscate illegal firearms, something I literally just mentioned earlier this morning. So it seems like we're heading in the right direction. 

 

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1 hour ago, Godless said:

It's already been mentioned that a crucial flaw in the last ban was that it allowed certain features on guns so long as they didn't feature others. So you could have a rifle with a pistol grip and collapsible stock so long as it didn't also have a 30 round detachable magazine. The way I see it, only one of those three features truly effects the lethality of a rifle. Let's put more focus on the features that aren't purely cosmetic and actually enhance the ability of a gun to kill a large number of people. But instead of trying this, we just shrugged our shoulders and gave up.

As a non-gun-owning conservative:  The thing is that the Left has utterly refused to just leave me the heck alone--whether it be to educate my kids, worship my God, earn my income, build a house in the suburbs rather than some urban cesspit, haul my family around in an SUV, eat my meals without agonizing over whether it's "good for me" or "environmentally sustainable", arrange for medical care with the doctor of my choice, express my acceptance or rejection for scientific theories, or just know that my daughter can go potty at school without some adult male leering at her from the next stall.  And, frankly, they hate me.  They hate me because I'm white, because I'm straight, because I reproduced, because I won't bow before their sacred cows, because I think differently than they do.  I see that hate in the DNC, in Congress, among certain members of the Supreme Court, and--yes--at the White House.  The support for Trump (and you know how I despise the guy) really boils down to the right finally embracing the sort of contempt for their adversaries that they have put up with, coming from the left, for decades. 

In that sort of scenario:  You're darned straight, I want my thirty-round magazine.  Or at least, I want fellow conservatives to have them.  Because leftists may not be particularly bad humans--but they're humans, and human nature doesn't change across time.  We are as susceptible to dictatorship now as ever we were, and if we give in to it there will be no Brother Jonathan riding in from across the Atlantic to save us.  As horrific as the current gun toll is:  It would take us ten years to rack up Idi Amin's body count; forty-two years to equal Pol Pot, a hundred seventy years to match Hitler, and five hundred seventy years to rack up Stalinesque casualties.  Given the corrupting influence of power, and given that most of our politicos probably don't like me and my kind very much anyways:  If Obama and Hillary (and Trump, and even Gary Johnson for that matter) fear the NRA and consider widespread gun ownership as a deterrent to the full implementation of their agendas, then I say--good.

People who don't want to live with the casualties that are incident to an armed society, are free to go to one of the other first-world countries that has acted more aggressively to control their guns; secure in the knowledge that if their new governments get too big for their britches there's always an American embassy down the road.  Those of us who remain, IMHO, should focus on deterring gun violence by reinforcing our common values and heritage, and general gun safety education, and ultimately by making sure everyone knows that if you try anything dumb in this country you have exactly 5.8 seconds before some other armed American starts sending bullets flying back at you.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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12 minutes ago, NightSG said:

I've been slammed to the ground in a way that would have been somewhere between painful and fatal had I not been a) taught to fall without hitting my head or getting limbs linned under me, b) expecting some sort of effective response, and c) on a nice squishy mat, by a 118 pound woman.  I weighed 209 at the time, and she was still a green belt.

Find yourself a Tomiki Aikido instructor who focuses on real-world self defense.  You'll quickly find that those guys who look like they're just throwing themselves on the ground to make sensei look brilliant are doing it because it's the only real alternative to having an arm ripped out of its socket or a wrist broken.

 I've taken Ed Parker style karate for many years. He was a member but I didn't know that till recently. Here is what I learned:

Karate is filled with macho in your face tough guys who think they are indestructible and super strong, tough, fast and agile. I think it's foolish, but I'd like to use some stronger non-LDS approved words. A good martial arts teacher will teach you that you aren't nearly as tough as you think you are. I say that as someone who advanced quite far in the ranks. 

And in a "real fight" all your marital arts skills will not do a thing. 

Edited by MormonGator

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Karate is filled with macho in your face tough guys who think they are indestructible and super strong, tough, fast and agile.

A good aikido instructor will focus on ways to get out of a fight, either controlling limbs or just taking your opponent off balance until he falls on his own, giving you time to run, access an effective weapon or direct him through a door and lock it.  Doing damage is secondary to that, up to the point where your opponent demonstrates that he will continue to attack as long as he's able to.  Then you break him as much as necessary.

Anybody in our class who thinks he's too good will be thoroughly humiliated by a late-60s Episcopal priest on disability and/or his daughter.

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8 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If Obama and Hillary (and Trump, and even Gary Johnson for that matter) fear the NRA and consider widespread gun ownership as a deterrent to the full implementation of their agendas, then I say--good.

When the government fears the people, there is freedom. Where the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Wish I'd said it first (well, not really: I'd be 250 years old).

Lehi

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3 minutes ago, NightSG said:

 

Anybody in our class who thinks he's too good will be thoroughly humiliated by a late-60s Episcopal priest on disability and/or his daughter.

i've been taking various forms of karate on and off for twenty five years. I've seen it all before. To me a sensible martial arts instructor who doesn't think they are "Indestructible! Unbeatable! I belong in Mortal Kombat real life tournaments!"  is like a round square or a married bachelor. Just ain't gonna see it. 

Yes, I'm being slightly over the top.

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17 minutes ago, Godless said:

So since we can't stop it, there's no point trying to reduce it?

 

Of course we try to reduce it.  "It" being crime not guns.  Gun laws is not the answer.  The problem with gun legislation, of course, is it doesn't address the real issue - why people kill people.  You'll get more success sending out missionaries than making more gun laws.

Immigration control will get more success than gun control.  And you're not infringing on the rights of Americans.  You can't bring in more immigrants faster than they can assimilate.  Multi-culturalism fosters division.

Improving the economy will get more success than gun control.  People who are busy working have lesser time shooting each other.  And the satisfaction of productivity elevates all people.

Stopping politicians from dividing the country by voting blocs will get more success than gun control.  Gays versus straights, pro-life versus pro-choice, rich versus poor, blacks versus whites, etc. etc. etc.  There should only be one identity promoted by politicians - AMERICAN.

And so on and so forth.

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6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

i've been taking various forms of karate on and off for twenty five years. I've seen it all before. To me a sensible martial arts instructor who doesn't think they are "Indestructible! Unbeatable! I belong in Mortal Kombat real life tournaments!"  is like a round square or a married bachelor. Just ain't gonna see it. 

Well, he was a cop in the bad neighborhoods of Fort Worth for a few decades, so he knows what it's like to get hurt, and he readily admits what he's found that doesn't work on certain people.  Even still, it's rare to see anybody below about 4th degree black belt put him down unless he allows it, because he knows enough recovery methods to switch techniques in a hurry if one is failing.

From what I've found through many close encounters with the mat, by green belt, (though rank systems vary a lot) you should be able to seriously injure the average unskilled attacker.  It won't be pretty, but it'll hurt a lot.  By brown belt, you should be able to stop an attack without hurting your attacker excessively, and by 3rd or 4th degree black belt, you really should be able to leave most people laying on the ground, unhurt and wondering what the heck just happened.

Of course, there's also arnis, which pretty much boils down to "hit him with a stick, then hit him with another stick, then repeat, a lot, fast."

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2 minutes ago, NightSG said:

From what I've found through many close encounters with the mat, by green belt, (though rank systems vary a lot) you should be able to seriously injure the average unskilled attacker.  It won't be pretty, but it'll hurt a lot.  By brown belt, you should be able to stop an attack without hurting your attacker excessively, and by 3rd or 4th degree black belt, you really should be able to leave most people laying on the ground, unhurt and wondering what the heck just happened.

 

It's obviously a good thing to be able to defend yourself but 1) you shouldn't be getting into fights in the first place. If you actually have to "use" what you know, you've already made a mistake and 2) no matter how tough you are or worse, how tough you think you are, someone on PCP or carrying a firearm has the upper hand, and it is huge.  

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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Holy smokes, batman.  My 12 year old is bigger than you!

:: snickers ::

My dear, why do you think I took karate in the first place as a kid? I had a big mouth and was always getting picked on. 

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

someone on PCP … has the upper hand, and it is huge. 

That's why there is no such thing as an "unarmed attacker".

That's why everyone should carry a weapon that can stop the attack.

Lehi

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1 minute ago, LeSellers said:

That's why there is no such thing as an "unarmed attacker".

That's why everyone should carry a weapon that can stop the attack.

Lehi

We agree totally, but I also stand by my point of "Don't get into a situation where you need it in the first place." IE-be aware of your surroundings. Go out with a group of people. Don't take stupid risks. Don't push people around in bars. Don't be a bully, etc. 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

We agree totally, but I also stand by my point of "Don't get into a situation where you need it in the first place." IE-be aware of your surroundings. Go out with a group of people. Don't take stupid risks. Don't push people around in bars. Don't be a bully, etc. 

A fight avoided is a fight won.

Lehi

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

It's obviously a good thing to be able to defend yourself but 1) you shouldn't be getting into fights in the first place. If you actually have to "use" what you know, you've already made a mistake and 2) no matter how tough you are or worse, how tough you think you are, someone on PCP or carrying a firearm has the upper hand, and it is huge.  

Defense of a third party can arise through no fault of one's own, and there are people out there just looking to pick a fight.  Frankly, more people capable of and willing to make those people regret their actions will go a lot farther towards stopping them than having everyone run away.

Guns are effective, but they're not magical; they don't convey any skill to the wielder, so it's not that uncommon to be missed repeatedly and/or have the opportunity to disarm effectively.  If someone's pointing a gun at you from within arm's reach, they're not expecting you to do anything about it, so throw a monkey wrench into their OODA loop and abuse the heck out of the half second or so before they recover.  And even PCP can't make up for having the support structure disassembled.  They may not feel a fully dislocated knee or crushed ankle, but they won't be able to stand on it either.

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And for the record Bruce Lee,  Chuck Norris, Ed Parker and several other high ups in the marital arts world all carried a firearm because they knew they would encounter idiots who wanted to test their abilities in the real world. 

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12 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

And for the record Bruce Lee,  Chuck Norris, Ed Parker and several other high ups in the marital arts world all carried a firearm because they knew they would encounter idiots who wanted to test their abilities in the real world.

Chuck Norris carries a gun in case he wants to do less damage than his fists are capable of. :P

One of the best things about working on releases and balance breaks is that so many of them lead naturally into getting the opponent either on the ground or staggering away long enough to draw a gun.

Edited by NightSG

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23 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Guns are effective, but they're not magical; they don't convey any skill to the wielder,

  We agree on that for sure. A gun is like a pit bull (ironically I also own one of those as well). In the right hands, it'll defend yourself and your family and is a wonderful deterrent against abuse. In the wrong hands, it can be extremely destructive.

I always tease people, "If you break into my house don't worry about me. Worry about the beautiful LadyGator ( a dead shot markswoman) and my two pits (both trained to  attack on command)."

 

One is an English Bull Terrier, one is pit-boxer mix. 

Edited by MormonGator

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