Temples

[Edspringer]

22 hours ago, Reece said:

That's just it....we all "suffer" or are blessed because of loved ones decisions. Why would something SO important for OUR eternal happiness and salvation be determined by another's decisions? We are doing our best as well. This doesn't change what my parents do. They are now divorced and will never be sealed. My husband and I have both previously been sealed and now our kids are not sealed to me because my sealing had to be nullified to be sealed to him...or are they? Have they been essentially punished for their parents mistakes? It's these unanswered things that I wonder about. 

Know this:

1) our Heavenly Father LOVES us all and is definetely aware of ALL our disappointments and frustrations and foresaw them long before we even existed as His spirit children. He designed a perfect plan of happiness and gave us His Beloved Son, by whom a perfect atonement would be performed essentialy to soccor those in need or in disppair (Alma 7:21);

2)No one will ever be punished by someone else’s choices. We learn this in the 2nd Article of Faith. Agency is deeply respected by God and it’s something He will never interfere. It so individual as it is so sacred and essential for our eternal progression. Remember why Satan was cast out from Heaven (Moses 4:1-3).

Please turn to your Heavenly Father in prayer and ask Him to confort you through the Holy Ghost. You have the right to be conforted. Those who ask in faith will never be forsaken.

I love you and will be praying for you and those you love.

[Sunday21]

Hey Reece,

I hear you. I am the only member in my family and some of my relatives are ...not very nice people to put it mildly. Here is my psychologicall way of coping. I hope that those of higher kingdoms can visit those of lower kingdoms. Perhaps lds people will be able to spend a weekend with their relatives. I don't know. I feel sad as you do.

[Maureen]

On 6/24/2016 at 10:38 PM, Reece said:

...What about those couples who have circumstances we can't put into our neat little boxes? Such as; a couple who are sealed, but the man dies early and the woman remarries someone who can't be sealed to her because she's already sealed but they have children and live 60 years together? Or my grandmother who out-lived all 3 husbands and loved each of them the same. (And there are dozens of other scenarios)....

Hi Reece, the LDS church has set up policies/procedures for these kind of situations. A deceased woman can be proxy sealed to all the husbands (who are also deceased) she has been married to. But of course this is something that living family members must do, like grandchildren.

There is a sealing guideline for women who were married more than once. [7.4.4]

If a woman was legally married more than once (such as after the death of a husband), you may have a sealing ordinance performed for her and each husband. This will avoid the situation of having to make judgments for which we are not qualified. Remember, if an ordinance is performed on earth, it does not become binding until accepted in the spirit world by the worthy person for whom the ordinance was performed.

https://www.lds.org/manual/introduction-to-family-history-student-manual/chapter-7?lang=eng

M. 

[Maureen]

On 6/24/2016 at 8:21 AM, Reece said:

....This doesn't change what my parents do. They are now divorced and will never be sealed. My husband and I have both previously been sealed and now our kids are not sealed to me because my sealing had to be nullified to be sealed to him...or are they? Have they been essentially punished for their parents mistakes? It's these unanswered things that I wonder about. 

Even though your parents are now divorced, proxy sealing work can be done for them by family members just because they were once married. If you do believe that they have the ability to make decisions in the after life, then they will either choose to stay separated or accept the 2nd sealing.

As to your children from a previous marriage, they are still sealed to you are your ex-husband. If you and your current husband have children, that can get a little complicated depending on your sealing situation at the time of the new children's births.

If my parents were sealed in the temple and then got divorced, which one am I sealed to?

For Latter-day Saint children of divorce, questions like this can add to the sadness and uncertainty that divorce brings. But here’s a fact you need to know: children can be sealed to only two parents. So if you were born to your parents after they were sealed in the temple (born in the covenant) or were sealed to them in the temple yourself, you are still sealed to them—both of them—even after a divorce. This is true even if your parents’ temple sealing to each other is canceled. The important thing to remember is that Heavenly Father loves all of you and wants the best for you, both now and in eternity. If you keep your covenants, your relationships in the next life will be fair and right. You can seek peace in these matters by praying and, if you feel you need extra support, by counseling with your bishop.

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2015/08/to-the-point/if-my-parents-were-sealed-in-the-temple-and-then-got-divorced-which-one-am-i-sealed-to?lang=eng

M.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Maureen

[Str8Shooter]

On 6/24/2016 at 9:38 PM, Reece said:

I don't intend this to be a church criticism post. Let me be clear: I have a testimony of the gospel. However, there are some things I've always wondered, and have never found an answer that feels exactly right. I'd just like some other perspectives. 

I grew up with inactive LDS parents who are not sealed in the temple.  As a child this really bothered me...with all the talk of forever families I wondered what that meant for mine. The only answers I can get are: "It will all work out in the heavens" or "Its about sealing everyone back to Christ; not who you're gonna be with in heaven" or something close to these explanations.  So, what I wonder is; well....if it's not about who we will be with, why does it matter? Why the push for a "forever family"?  If it's all gonna be worked out in heaven (I won't be denied blessings because my parents aren't sealed) why is it so important?  I have absolute faith that it WILL all be fine because I believe in a loving God, but when there is such a HUGE focus on this, why aren't there more clear answers? I can't believe that a righteous, loving family just won't be together in the after life because they didn't go through a ceremony in a specific building.  What about those couples who have circumstances we can't put into our neat little boxes? Such as; a couple who are sealed, but the man dies early and the woman remarries someone who can't be sealed to her because she's already sealed but they have children and live 60 years together? Or my grandmother who out-lived all 3 husbands and loved each of them the same. (And there are dozens of other scenarios).  Perhaps this is what the mellenium is for, so I keep my faith that God has a plan I just can't understand in my mortal state.  But it seems our idea of what SHOULD be is very idealistic and limited.  

I often also wonder...what could be done with all the time, effort and money that goes into the temples themselves and then the hours spent working and attending them? Could we not do more good by serving those ALIVE? Even if the symbolic ceremonies need to be done on earth, could we not have less extravagant places to do it? 

 

 

Great questions Reece, and a lot of people have the same questions.  I hope what I say will help.  For some of the things you ask, the answers are crystal clear, and for other things we don't have answers.  Part of the difficulty with such great questions is that some well meaning individuals may give incomplete or inaccurate answers. Contrary to what you have been told, who we are going to be with in the heavens is a critically essential part of the Gospel.

I'll start with the stuff that is clear.  If a righteous, loving family is not sealed they will not have the blessings of the sealing covenant here on earth or in the next life.  It is the same with baptism.  If someone is not baptised, they will not be able to attain eternal life.  The law has been given and must be fulfilled.  This is justice and this is how justice works.  Even Jesus Christ had to be baptised.

This is where the Atonement and agency combine to create hope and salvation.  We all have agency, everyone of us, and because Jesus Christ atoned for everyone who is living, who has ever lived, and will yet live, everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel and all of it's ordinances.  

Here is the part which requires that we have faith, not lose hope, and that we do not judge people unrighteously:  The things that are unknown to us.  

Nobody here knows for certain when someone has had their final opportunity to accept or reject Jesus Christ, or for that matter, accept or reject the saving ordinances.  We just don't know.  When people truly listen to the gospel message they will have a mighty change of heart and that change can certainly happen after the individual has left this mortal life.  I would find it highly unlikely (I almost say impossible) that a righteous family who is unsealed in this life would reject the opportunity to be sealed in the next life.  It makes no sense whatsoever in any way.

When it comes to people who get remarried, divorced, widowed, etc, there are some things that we do not know and do not need to know at this point in life.  I suppose these are the things that, "...we can't put into our neat little boxes...", and I say we should not try to exercise judgement and put them into boxes.  Those are the things that we must use faith and understand that Jesus Christ will sort those things out when the time comes.  Isn't that wonderful?  We will have a perfect judge give the nothing less that the best ruling that will give everyone the most happiness they can have.  I am personally involved in a situation in which I will have to wait to see how things will work out.  I am excited to see what happens because the best possible resolution will happen.  In the meantime, I try not to put too much thought into it
because it is fruitless to do so.

As for what we could do if we spent less time with temple work and more time with living work- I'm sure that if we did that it would seem like we would be doing more good.  It would seem like Adam could have collected more food or spent more time bettering the world he lived in if he hadn't spent time building an alter.  Sometimes we are asked to do things that we do not fully understand.  Temples have always been sacred places of worship to be built with the finest materials.  Temple symbolisms take years, even a lifetime to understand.  The symbolisms in their construction and what they are made with are essential to the teaching process.  The work that goes on in the temples is not ordinary.  It's eternal.  A temple is built in a manner that reflects the very sacred and holy work that takes place inside.

 

[Str8Shooter]

On 6/24/2016 at 9:38 PM, Reece said:

I don't intend this to be a church criticism post. Let me be clear: I have a testimony of the gospel. However, there are some things I've always wondered, and have never found an answer that feels exactly right. I'd just like some other perspectives. 

I grew up with inactive LDS parents who are not sealed in the temple.  As a child this really bothered me...with all the talk of forever families I wondered what that meant for mine. The only answers I can get are: "It will all work out in the heavens" or "Its about sealing everyone back to Christ; not who you're gonna be with in heaven" or something close to these explanations.  So, what I wonder is; well....if it's not about who we will be with, why does it matter? Why the push for a "forever family"?  If it's all gonna be worked out in heaven (I won't be denied blessings because my parents aren't sealed) why is it so important?  I have absolute faith that it WILL all be fine because I believe in a loving God, but when there is such a HUGE focus on this, why aren't there more clear answers? I can't believe that a righteous, loving family just won't be together in the after life because they didn't go through a ceremony in a specific building.  What about those couples who have circumstances we can't put into our neat little boxes? Such as; a couple who are sealed, but the man dies early and the woman remarries someone who can't be sealed to her because she's already sealed but they have children and live 60 years together? Or my grandmother who out-lived all 3 husbands and loved each of them the same. (And there are dozens of other scenarios).  Perhaps this is what the mellenium is for, so I keep my faith that God has a plan I just can't understand in my mortal state.  But it seems our idea of what SHOULD be is very idealistic and limited.  

I often also wonder...what could be done with all the time, effort and money that goes into the temples themselves and then the hours spent working and attending them? Could we not do more good by serving those ALIVE? Even if the symbolic ceremonies need to be done on earth, could we not have less extravagant places to do it? 

 

 

Great questions Reece, and a lot of people have the same questions.  I hope what I say will help.  For some of the things you ask, the answers are crystal clear, and for other things we don't have answers.  Part of the difficulty with such great questions is that some well meaning individuals may give incomplete or inaccurate answers. Contrary to what you have been told, who we are going to be with in the heavens is a critically essential part of the Gospel.

I'll start with the stuff that is clear.  If a righteous, loving family is not sealed they will not have the blessings of the sealing covenant here on earth or in the next life.  It is the same with baptism.  If someone is not baptised, they will not be able to attain eternal life.  The law has been given and must be fulfilled.  This is justice and this is how justice works.  Even Jesus Christ had to be baptised.

This is where the Atonement and agency combine to create hope and salvation.  We all have agency, everyone of us, and because Jesus Christ atoned for everyone who is living, who has ever lived, and will yet live, everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel and all of it's ordinances.  

Here is the part which requires that we have faith, not lose hope, and that we do not judge people unrighteously:  The things that are unknown to us.  

Nobody here knows for certain when someone has had their final opportunity to accept or reject Jesus Christ, or for that matter, accept or reject the saving ordinances.  We just don't know.  When people truly listen to the gospel message they will have a mighty change of heart and that change can certainly happen after the individual has left this mortal life.  I would find it highly unlikely (I almost say impossible) that a righteous family who is unsealed in this life would reject the opportunity to be sealed in the next life.  It makes no sense whatsoever in any way.

When it comes to people who get remarried, divorced, widowed, etc, there are some things that we do not know and do not need to know at this point in life.  I suppose these are the things that, "...we can't put into our neat little boxes...", and I say we should not try to exercise judgement and put them into boxes.  Those are the things that we must use faith and understand that Jesus Christ will sort those things out when the time comes.  Isn't that wonderful?  We will have a perfect judge give the nothing less that the best ruling that will give everyone the most happiness they can have.  I am personally involved in a situation in which I will have to wait to see how things will work out.  I am excited to see what happens because the best possible resolution will happen.  In the meantime, I try not to put too much thought into it
because it is fruitless to do so.

As for what we could do if we spent less time with temple work and more time with living work- I'm sure that if we did that it would seem like we would be doing more good.  It would seem like Adam could have collected more food or spent more time bettering the world he lived in if he hadn't spent time building an alter.  Sometimes we are asked to do things that we do not fully understand.  Temples have always been sacred places of worship to be built with the finest materials.  Temple symbolisms take years, even a lifetime to understand.  The symbolisms in their construction and what they are made with are essential to the teaching process.  The work that goes on in the temples is not ordinary.  It's eternal.  A temple is built in a manner that reflects the very sacred and holy work that takes place inside.

 

[Reece]

On June 24, 2016 at 9:03 AM, estradling75 said:

Your questions are related to Sealing...  Sealing are one ordinance performed...  There are other ordinances

 

Lets start with the basics...

Do you understand the importance of baptism?

Can you understand why it is important to the living.... if so can you understand the importance for all.

 

 

Yes....I understand there are other covenants. Those pertain to me and my relationship with God. So I'm referring mostly to he ones that are dependent upon others choices and circumstances in this life. If it is absolutely necessary to be sealed to families while on earth and thus back to God for eternity, obviously it's important for the dead. Still...no one has a clear description of how that will all look in heaven with all the family scenarios and variations here. My adopted daughter struggles with it too...as she yearns for a relationship with her birth parents but is told she will be part of the family she's sealed to. I have answers in my own heart and mind that all center on realizing we probably just can't comprehend how it will look in our mortal state, and that a loving Father will not deprive us of certain blessings due to others choices. It's been insinuated that I don't have enough faith. To me...that IS faith...trusting without the answers! Idk. Sometimes I wish temple work would be stressed more as an earthly ordinance necessary for the celestial kingdom, but maybe not so much about "living with my family forever" if that makes sense. 

[Reece]

On June 24, 2016 at 9:07 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

Well, in that case, no offense but you need to remember this is the Lord's work not yours. He knows better than we do what is needful.

The Lords work, yes. But where has the Lord said he wants big expensive buildings to do his work in? I recall it being done in the top floor of Joseph Smith's store. I could be wrong...I just think it's the ordinances and not the building that is important.  Most of my thoughts are related to the unanswered questions about how it all works for the majority of people who don't fall into the nuclear happily ever after family. 

[Reece]

On June 24, 2016 at 9:07 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

Well, in that case, no offense but you need to remember this is the Lord's work not yours. He knows better than we do what is needful.

I don't know that the Lord has said he needs a big expensive building. To me, it's the ordinances, not the building hat matters. Ordinances were performed on the top floor of Jospehs Smiths store at one point. 

[LeSellers]

6 minutes ago, Reece said:

I don't know that the Lord has said he needs a big expensive building. To me, it's the ordinances, not the building hat matters. Ordinances were performed on the top floor of Jospehs Smiths store at one point. 

Yes, the Lord allows us in our poverty to do these ordinances in rivers (for baptisms for the dead), and on mountain tops (for others), and even in an upper room.

But He does "need[] a big expensive building" most of the time, when His Saints are not poor — and we are not poor today. The Israelites at the foot of Sinai built a "big expensive building" (albeit a portable building). They built three "big expensive buildings" in Jerusalem, each to replace the earlier one.

Again, I cite Doc&Cov 120:

Quote

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, the time is now come, that [the tithe] shall be disposed of by a council, composed of the First Presidency of my Church, and of the bishop and his council, and by my high council; and by mine own voice unto them, saith the Lord. Even so. Amen.

My name isn't there. Your name isn't there. Neither of us has any authority to tell the Brethren how they should dispose of the tithing of the Lord's people.

We go back to Israel at Sinai. The people gave so much that the Lord told them to stop. When we reach that point, I'm sure the Brethren will relay a similar message to us. In the meantime, I'll be grateful for the Temples we have, for those we will have, and hope that the Lord will require more of us to build even more.

Lehi

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I won't argue with you about the cost. I think you should pray about it.

I understand about non-nuclear happily ever after families. I come from one myself. I don't know how that will all work out.

[estradling75]

29 minutes ago, Reece said:

 

Yes....I understand there are other covenants. Those pertain to me and my relationship with God. So I'm referring mostly to he ones that are dependent upon others choices and circumstances in this life. If it is absolutely necessary to be sealed to families while on earth and thus back to God for eternity, obviously it's important for the dead. Still...no one has a clear description of how that will all look in heaven with all the family scenarios and variations here. My adopted daughter struggles with it too...as she yearns for a relationship with her birth parents but is told she will be part of the family she's sealed to. I have answers in my own heart and mind that all center on realizing we probably just can't comprehend how it will look in our mortal state, and that a loving Father will not deprive us of certain blessings due to others choices. It's been insinuated that I don't have enough faith. To me...that IS faith...trusting without the answers! Idk. Sometimes I wish temple work would be stressed more as an earthly ordinance necessary for the celestial kingdom, but maybe not so much about "living with my family forever" if that makes sense. 

 

You are right... trusting without known is faith...  So how are you showing faith by coming on here requiring answers?  What faith are you showing by attacking the Lord knowledge and wisdom in having us build temples... Because you struggle to wrap your head around one ordinance of the several that are performed at the temple.  That like saying owie my finger hurts... so let me chop of my head because then my finger will stop hurting.

It make no sense and it most definitely not an act of faith

 

 

15 minutes ago, Reece said:

I don't know that the Lord has said he needs a big expensive building. To me, it's the ordinances, not the building hat matters. Ordinances were performed on the top floor of Jospehs Smiths store at one point. 

Cite your source....  My source is the men I believe God has chosen and directs his church.... That they communicate with him and then enact his will on the earth...  Which includes building temples as they currently are...  What is your source for claiming that you know the mind and will of god better then they do?

This is another example of lack of Faith...  You are struggling with on aspect and that happens to everyone...  But instead of choosing to act in Faith you are choosing to give into your uncertainty and doubting a whole lot more then just one aspect... This is the road to apostasy and you are justifying your travels on it with pride that "you know better" what the Lord really wants.

[LeSellers]

40 minutes ago, Reece said:

The Lords work, yes. But where has the Lord said he wants big expensive buildings to do his work in?

How 'bout here (Doc&Cov 94)?

Quote

1 And again, verily I say unto you, my friends, a commandment I give unto you, that ye shall commence a work of laying out and preparing a beginning and foundation of the city of the stake of Zion, here in the land of Kirtland, beginning at my house. 2 And behold, it must be done according to the pattern which I have given unto you.

How 'bout Ex 26?

Quote

1 Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them.

The accounts of the building of Nauvoo₁, Salt Lake, and St. George (among others) has the Lord revealing glorious buildings to the prophet. He said that he could never look on the spot (where the Salt Lake Temple would be) without seeing it there in splendor. He had Truman O. Angel make the building much taller to accommodate the round windows he'd seen.

Lehi

 

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, Reece said:

I don't know that the Lord has said he needs a big expensive building. To me, it's the ordinances, not the building hat matters. Ordinances were performed on the top floor of Jospehs Smiths store at one point. 

My thoughts as just fallible me:

No, the Lord does not need a big expensive building- the Lord has done ordinances in all sorts of places and could even do them in a junk yard if He choose to.  His ordinances are mighty beyond anything we comprehend.  But we humans are small minded creatures that judge things by the appearance on the outside, and WE need the big expensive building because we don't see His beauty while standing in a junkyard.  

[Guest]

On 6/24/2016 at 9:24 AM, Reece said:

Oh, I have...and I do. Like I said, I have faith things will work out. But still, no one has concrete answers for families who have less than ideal stories. Divorces, remarriage, kids and parents who don't believe, etc.   You either fit into the happily forever after scenario or you don't.  

It sounds like you do have a concrete answer ^^^

[The Folk Prophet]

On 6/24/2016 at 8:16 AM, Reece said:

Thanks for the input. I am well aware. I just think SO much more could be done with the time, and $ dedicated to temple work. 

Why does this put me in mind of John 12:5?

[The Folk Prophet]

On 6/25/2016 at 6:42 PM, Reece said:

I do temple work for my ancestors. I feel I am doing my part. I have complete faith that God knows my heart and my abilities and it's not about me feeling like I can't make it. It's about me feeling like...the church teaches (or has no answers for) the people like me and my children who have divorced parents, are sealed to someone they didn't end up living with, etc. I guess the answer is...no one knows. Maybe it's just something we can't fit into our limited belief system or perception in this mortal life. 

I'm confused by what, exactly, your trauma is here. Do you not have the promise of exaltation if you are obedient and faithful? Is not the same promise given to all? Why do you have to understand the exact structure of the family unit in the Celestial world (something our finite, mortal minds couldn't even begin to comprehend even were it revealed to us)? I seriously cannot understand why this is a problem for you.

That being said: Here's my take on the matter. (Just my opinion, not doctrinal (though some things are clearly based in doctrine)).

The sealing of father/mother to son/daughter is no more meaningful in the eternities than is the baptismal covenant. It is, in the same way, a covenant that is related, much more, to our focus and desires in mortality than it relates to the order of Celestial living. It is about our establishing our obedience and focus as a qualifying part of the covenants that ready us for exaltation, rather than being directly key to the specific societal organization of the eternities.

I imagine that our exalted existence relates much much more to our eternal progeny (spirit children), our work and our glory being their immortality and eternal life, just as it is for our Father, than having to do much with our spirit brethren and sister -- the one key exception to this being our eternal spouses. The spousal sealing is the one that matters to the eternities, and it is the culmination of all that we do in the temple. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the very purpose of life. It is the end-all of everything we do here. All other ordinances lead to it. There is nothing more important than it.

Frankly, to me, the idea that temples should be less extravagant must come from a view that does not realize how blessed one is, the glory and majesty of our Father, and the honor the He should be given. If anything some temples are not extravagant enough. Nothing is too good for our God! And nothing is more important than the temples and temple work. The ordinances ARE the gospel.

Once again, it simply makes no sense to me to be traumatized about less-than-ideal mortal conditions. And the p.o.v. that some live in some idealistic perfect mortal condition is ridiculous. No one lives the ideal. We all come here to suffer, face trials, be tested, and face death and loss, both spiritually and physically. Every one of us. We either step up and humble ourselves, trust in God, do His will, and remain faithful to the ordinances and covenants of the gospel or we do not. Every one of us has to make that choice. Some won't have that choice until the afterlife, but the choice is the same for everyone.

Stop worrying about the details of how it will all work out -- something you (or I or anyone) could not possibly understand anyway -- and worry about God's work and glory, which ultimately is to bring souls to the temples to make the covenants required to achieve eternal life. And then, as God told Ether in Chapter 12 of that book:

"And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father."

 

Edited June 26, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Just_A_Guy]

On June 25, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Reece said:

Yes....I understand there are other covenants. Those pertain to me and my relationship with God. So I'm referring mostly to he ones that are dependent upon others choices and circumstances in this life. If it is absolutely necessary to be sealed to families while on earth and thus back to God for eternity, obviously it's important for the dead. Still...no one has a clear description of how that will all look in heaven with all the family scenarios and variations here. My adopted daughter struggles with it too...as she yearns for a relationship with her birth parents but is told she will be part of the family she's sealed to. I have answers in my own heart and mind that all center on realizing we probably just can't comprehend how it will look in our mortal state, and that a loving Father will not deprive us of certain blessings due to others choices. It's been insinuated that I don't have enough faith. To me...that IS faith...trusting without the answers! Idk. Sometimes I wish temple work would be stressed more as an earthly ordinance necessary for the celestial kingdom, but maybe not so much about "living with my family forever" if that makes sense. 

Reece, I agree with you in many ways.  I am perhaps somewhat unorthodox on this:  I think that, regardless of "sealing" relationships, people will be more-or-less free to enjoy the company of whomever they wish, whenever they wish, through the eternities--at least, so far as people in the same kingdoms of glory are concerned.  It's worth noting, in this context, that we are not sealed to our siblings at all.  We are sealed to our parents, to our spouse, and our children.

With regard to one's ancestors, the sealing ceremony itself talks makes a person an heir.  Imagine inheriting five million dollars.  You could, hypothetically, inherit that sum from anyone in your family, or even from a non-family member by virtue of adoption.  But the important thing, as far as the law is concerned, is that you have a legal relationship with someone who can in turn pass that inheritance on to you.  

But what if the bank and its legal team didn't wait for all the legalities to be in place before they started paying you your five million dollars?  What if the bank told you that they would pay you your inheritance, in full, **even if** so far as you know, everyone in your entire family was flat broke?  All you have to do, is give the bank the names of your own parents.  Maybe the inheritance actually comes through them, and maybe it doesn't--but that is now the bank's problem, not yours; and you can start enjoying the monthly checks immediately.

That's what the Lord actually does through my sealing to my parents.  In His mercy, the Lord only asks us to try to identify our legal benefactor (primarily along family lines) and to legally confirm that relationship via temple rites--giving us the guarantee that, even if we get our lineage wrong, He will nevertheless begin paying us our inheritance now and confirm our status as heirs; with the re-alignment of the lines of inheritance into their proper orders to occur at some future date. 

The sealing to my spouse, reinforces my status as king (or queen) and, more importantly IMHO, a priest (or priestess) to my family; and that certainly involves the quality of one's domestic relationships.  But again, boiling that down to a question of who I will "be with" in the eternities is, I think, a tremendous over-simplification.

Similarly, proxy temple work is primarily about making sure that our kindred dead can enjoy the same inheritances and be formally committed to the same responsibilities, that we now possess.

Regarding the financial cost of temples--Ideally temple worship should re-orient us and commit us to easing the lot of the poor and vulnerable among us, as we recognize the entirety of humanity as being engaged in a the same spiritual journey.  But as for the structures themselves:  Christ approved Herod's temple as "My house", even though it was (by the standards of the day) far more elaborate than modern LDS temples and even though poverty was a much more desperately pressing issue then than it is now.  Ditto for the temples of Zerubabbel and Solomon.  Apparently, to a limited degree, God is okay with the time and resources of His followers being devoted into activities that don't yield tangible benefits for the poor (Matt 26:11 and all that).

Incidentally, I just learned today that in first-century Palestine myrrh was probably worth the equivalent of $4,000 per pound in 2000 dollars, or a hair over $5,500/pound in 2016.  The hundred pounds of spices used in Jesus' burial, by the standards of the time, represented over half a million dollars.  But there is no record of the resurrected Lord telling Mary Magdalene "coulda done with a few less gallons of myrrh, thankyouverymuch . . ."

Edited June 27, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

On June 25, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Reece said:

Yes....I understand there are other covenants. Those pertain to me and my relationship with God. So I'm referring mostly to he ones that are dependent upon others choices and circumstances in this life. If it is absolutely necessary to be sealed to families while on earth and thus back to God for eternity, obviously it's important for the dead. Still...no one has a clear description of how that will all look in heaven with all the family scenarios and variations here. My adopted daughter struggles with it too...as she yearns for a relationship with her birth parents but is told she will be part of the family she's sealed to. I have answers in my own heart and mind that all center on realizing we probably just can't comprehend how it will look in our mortal state, and that a loving Father will not deprive us of certain blessings due to others choices. It's been insinuated that I don't have enough faith. To me...that IS faith...trusting without the answers! Idk. Sometimes I wish temple work would be stressed more as an earthly ordinance necessary for the celestial kingdom, but maybe not so much about "living with my family forever" if that makes sense. 

Reece, I agree with you in many ways.  I am perhaps somewhat unorthodox on this:  I think that, regardless of "sealing" relationships, people will be more-or-less free to enjoy the company of whomever they wish, whenever they wish, through the eternities--at least, so far as people in the same kingdoms of glory are concerned.  It's worth noting, in this context, that we are not sealed to our siblings at all.  We are sealed to our parents, to our spouse, and our children.

With regard to one's ancestors, the sealing ceremony itself talks makes a person an heir.  Imagine inheriting five million dollars.  You could, hypothetically, inherit that sum from anyone in your family, or even from a non-family member by virtue of adoption.  But the important thing, as far as the law is concerned, is that you have a legal relationship with someone who can in turn pass that inheritance on to you.  

But what if the bank and its legal team didn't wait for all the legalities to be in place before they started paying you your five million dollars?  What if the bank told you that they would pay you your inheritance, in full, **even if** so far as you know, everyone in your entire family was flat broke?  All you have to do, is give the bank the names of your own parents.  Maybe the inheritance actually comes through them, and maybe it doesn't--but that is now the bank's problem, not yours; and you can start enjoying the monthly checks immediately.

That's what the Lord actually does through my sealing to my parents.  In His mercy, the Lord only asks us to try to identify our legal benefactor (primarily along family lines) and to legally confirm that relationship via temple rites--giving us the guarantee that, even if we get our lineage wrong, He will nevertheless begin paying us our inheritance now and confirm our status as heirs; with the re-alignment of the lines of inheritance into their proper orders to occur at some future date. 

The sealing to my spouse, reinforces my status as king (or queen) and, more importantly IMHO, a priest (or priestess) to my family; and that certainly involves the quality of one's domestic relationships.  But again, boiling that down to a question of who I will "be with" in the eternities is, I think, a tremendous over-simplification.

Similarly, proxy temple work is primarily about making sure that our kindred dead can enjoy the same inheritances and be formally committed to the same responsibilities, that we now possess.

Regarding the financial cost of temples--Ideally temple worship should re-orient us and commit us to easing the lot of the poor and vulnerable among us, as we recognize the entirety of humanity as being engaged in a the same spiritual journey.  But as for the structures themselves:  Christ approved Herod's temple as "My house", even though it was (by the standards of the day) far more elaborate than modern LDS temples and even though poverty was a much more desperately pressing issue then than it is now.  Ditto for the temples of Zerubabbel and Solomon.  Apparently, to a limited degree, God is okay with the time and resources of His followers being devoted into activities that don't yield tangible benefits for the poor (Matt 26:11 and all that).

Incidentally, I just learned today that in first-century Palestine myrrh was probably worth the equivalent of $4,000 per pound in 2000 dollars, or a hair over $5,500/pound in 2016.  The hundred pounds of spices used in Jesus' burial, by the standards of the time, represented over half a million dollars.

[Reece]

On June 24, 2016 at 9:07 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

Well, in that case, no offense but you need to remember this is the Lord's work not yours. He knows better than we do what is needful.

I don't know that the Lord has said he needs a big expensive building. To me, it's the ordinances, not the building hat matters. Ordinances were performed on the top floor of Jospehs Smiths store at one point. 

[Reece]

I don't know why it's assumed I have "trauma" or don't have faith. I obviously am moving forward with faith without having all the answers. To those who have said or insinuated I am traumatized or lack faith; you think it's wrong to have questions? I certainly don't believe we will ever have all the answers here on earth. But I also don't believe it's wrong to question things. In fact it's either naive or conceited not to.  I have enjoyed and appreciate most of the thoughts given here. The gospel is true. Its members, even apostles, and their interpretations are not perfect.  Discussion is good. We have a lot of answers others don't, but when we stop wondering, discussing, and discovering, we stop progressing. I guess to ME, the gospel is about LOVE and service, and yes, families. The work in the temple, which is sealing us back to God is real work, but still, the majority of that IS symbolism of covenants and the after life, and when we look at it literally it starts to not make sense unless all families stay together. I will just keep believing that God is good and if I do what I can and take advantage of the atonement I will not have sadness or miss family members in the afterlife.  Anyway....thanks for the input. 

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, Reece said:

I don't know why it's assumed I have "trauma" 

"Trauma" is just my way of saying that I think you're making a bigger deal of it than should be made. It's not meant to imply I think you are weeping and throwing tantrums.

Edited June 27, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Reece]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Reece, I agree with you in many ways.  I am perhaps somewhat unorthodox on this:  I think that, regardless of "sealing" relationships, people will be more-or-less free to enjoy the company of whomever they wish, whenever they wish, through the eternities--at least, so far as people in the same kingdoms of glory are concerned.  It's worth noting, in this context, that we are not sealed to our siblings at all.  We are sealed to our parents, to our spouse, and our children.

With regard to one's ancestors, the sealing ceremony itself talks makes a person an heir.  Imagine inheriting five million dollars.  You could, hypothetically, inherit that sum from anyone in your family, or even from a non-family member by virtue of adoption.  But the important thing, as far as the law is concerned, is that you have a legal relationship with someone who can in turn pass that inheritance on to you.  

But what if the bank and its legal team didn't wait for all the legalities to be in place before they started paying you your five million dollars?  What if the bank told you that they would pay you your inheritance, in full, **even if** so far as you know, everyone in your entire family was flat broke?  All you have to do, is give the bank the names of your own parents.  Maybe the inheritance actually comes through them, and maybe it doesn't--but that is now the bank's problem, not yours; and you can start enjoying the monthly checks immediately.

That's what the Lord actually does through my sealing to my parents.  In His mercy, the Lord only asks us to try to identify our legal benefactor (primarily along family lines) and to legally confirm that relationship via temple rites--giving us the guarantee that, even if we get our lineage wrong, He will nevertheless begin paying us our inheritance now and confirm our status as heirs; with the re-alignment of the lines of inheritance into their proper orders to occur at some future date. 

The sealing to my spouse, reinforces my status as king (or queen) and, more importantly IMHO, a priest (or priestess) to my family; and that certainly involves the quality of one's domestic relationships.  But again, boiling that down to a question of who I will "be with" in the eternities is, I think, a tremendous over-simplification.

Similarly, proxy temple work is primarily about making sure that our kindred dead can enjoy the same inheritances and be formally committed to the same responsibilities, that we now possess.

Regarding the financial cost of temples--Ideally temple worship should re-orient us and commit us to easing the lot of the poor and vulnerable among us, as we recognize the entirety of humanity as being engaged in a the same spiritual journey.  But as for the structures themselves:  Christ approved Herod's temple as "My house", even though it was (by the standards of the day) far more elaborate than modern LDS temples and even though poverty was a much more desperately pressing issue then than it is now.  Ditto for the temples of Zerubabbel and Solomon.  Apparently, to a limited degree, God is okay with the time and resources of His followers being devoted into activities that don't yield tangible benefits for the poor (Matt 26:11 and all that).

Incidentally, I just learned today that in first-century Palestine myrrh was probably worth the equivalent of $4,000 per pound in 2000 dollars, or a hair over $5,500/pound in 2016.  The hundred pounds of spices used in Jesus' burial, by the standards of the time, represented over half a million dollars.

This response made the most sense to me, personally. Thank you. I did realize the worth of the gifts given to the infant Jesus. To me, that made more sense, as he was mortal, and born into humble circumstance. I don't believe we have an obligation to take care of others INSTEAD of building temples. It's sort of like capitalism...if the church raises the revenue it can do as it pleases with it, and it is nice to have a more celestial place of refuge to covenant, etc. I just wonder how much more accessible they would be if they were scaled down a bit, in order to build more. I also liked the comment about us mortals needing the extravagance to sort of remind us of our celestial origins and the ultimate goal, rather than God needing it. 

[Reece]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

"Trauma" is just my way of saying that I think you're making a bigger deal of it than should be made. It's not meant to imply I think you are weeping and throwing tantrums.

Fair enough. But still...if it is THE work of the church, and THE purpose, as has been said or implied, I believe we should understand it. it's pushed from primary "families can be together forever"; which is a beautiful concept.  Until...said family isn't together on earth...and questions arise with no real answers. Thus the discussion. 

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, Reece said:

Fair enough. But still...if it is THE work of the church, and THE purpose, as has been said or implied, I believe we should understand it.

Wait...what is "it" here you're talking about. Because we very well do understand eternal marriage. And that is the "it" I'm talking about.

5 minutes ago, Reece said:

it's pushed from primary "families can be together forever"; which is a beautiful concept.  Until...said family isn't together on earth...and questions arise with no real answers. Thus the discussion. 

And that is a fair discussion. It does strike me (and perhaps I'm reading you wrong) that you're more concerned about it than necessary though. But from an analytical p.o.v., it is, very much, a meaningless meme within the church based on the revealed knowledge we have. The families can be together thing as if you can sit around with your kids like you do when you're raising them makes no sense whatsoever. Your kids won't be kids anymore. That is true even in this life. Kids grow up and become adults and go start families of their own. So what is "together" supposed to even mean in the context of "together forever"? We'll all be in the same, big celestial living room together, never leaving each other's sight? Obviously not.

The simple and obvious truth is that families being together forever is about husband and wife. Children are no part of it. In the eternities what would being together with your earthly children even look like? Aren't they off being gods, creating worlds without end, parenting their eternal offspring, etc. Are we expecting to have our earthly children remain forever in a family unit like we have when they're 0-18? Of course not.

This is my point...it strikes me that you're putting too much into the idea of together forever as it relates to the parent/child relationship. I certainly understand that this is the sentiment that seems to be driven by the marketing ideas and simply phrases/memes in the church, but a bit of deeper thinking about the matter quickly reveals an immaturity in that idea. Our family-as-nucleus of the church model is practice...nothing more or less. The eternal family unit is god/goddess and their spirit children.