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Well actually, you reiterate some of my points. If it has only to do with eternal MARRIAGES, that's more simple but still brings up questions, such as; when a guy is divorced, remarries, is sealed to a second spouse but he first never remarries. Or....a spouse dies after sealing and a woman spends her life with someone else whom she can't be sealed to, etc. 

To say it only has to do with sealing a married couple ignores the fact that we push children being sealed to parents (as my adopted children were to me), and as we do work for the dead and seal all children to parents. 

In my humble opinion, if we focused only on the sealing of married couples and there weren't a double standard with men and women and the number of people they could be sealed to, it would be fairly straight forward and simple. Just being sealed to your spouse, and therefore back to our Ftaher in Heaven. I absolutely don't think it's about who you are going to live with, and believe it's far more about being sealed to your spouse to become a God and Godess. So my question is, why isn't that what we stress (especially to primary children who think they won't have a family in the after life if theirs isn't the ideal situation)? You're right. It IS immature thinking. I believe it is also immature thinking that we will all have to be linked generationally through temple covenant to enjoy all the blessings the Father has to offer; as this cannot be the story for many many people due to divorce, remarriage after deaths, adoption, etc., regardless of their individual worthiness. 

Edited by Reece
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5 hours ago, Reece said:

Well actually, you reiterate some of my points. If it has only to do with eternal MARRIAGES, that's more simple but still brings up questions, such as; when a guy is divorced, remarries, is sealed to a second spouse but he first never remarries. Or....a spouse dies after sealing and a woman spends her life with someone else whom she can't be sealed to, etc. 

Yep. Life is complicated. And there are complicated things that we do not know, exactly, how they will work out. And how could we? Would you expect the church to set a policy where the divorced woman who never remarries will be forced back together with that man in the eternities? Or that the righteous man who has died loses his sealing to the woman he loves because she spent her life with someone else? How could the church possibly answer these sorts of questions with policy or principle? They are, obviously, going to be highly individual, and judged and decided upon based on the hearts of individuals, and the only one who will and can truly know what is right in these situations is God. Hence, we trust in God. Otherwise, making up answers is as likely as not to just cause problems.

5 hours ago, Reece said:

To say it only has to do with sealing a married couple ignores the fact that we push children being sealed to parents (as my adopted children were to me), and as we do work for the dead and seal all children to parents. 

No it doesn't. I addressed the the sealing of children to parents (as have others) I think quite adequately. Once again, you're conflating things by using a generic terms such as "it". You can't do that an communicate clearly. "It" has to do with...???  What is "it"?

You might as well say something akin to, "If we have to be sealed to our spouses to gain exaltation then why do we need to be baptized?"

But one has nothing to do with the other. We are baptized for a completely different reason than we are sealed to our spouses. And we are sealed to our children, imo, for a completely different reason than we are sealed to our spouses. That doesn't invalidate the importance of parent/child sealing -- and this has been addressed by Just A Guy as well as others.

6 hours ago, Reece said:

In my humble opinion, if we focused only on the sealing of married couples and there weren't a double standard with men and women and the number of people they could be sealed to, it would be fairly straight forward and simple. 

Actually the sealing of parent to children is quite a bit more simple. Everyone sealed to their parents in a chain back to Adam, and if someone isn't faithful the link remains unbroken through via extended generations (as in, if my Father isn't faithful then my sealing goes to my grandpa, etc., etc...if none are faithful between me and Adam, so be it, I'm sealed to Adam...but it is through the chain of Father to Son (rather than trying to figure out who's been faithful or not)). Sure there are some complications there, but for the most part, it's pretty simple.

The spousal sealing thing is a bit more complicated, but I don't expect it's anywhere near as complicated as you're making it out to be. Nor do I consider the so-called "double standard" with men and women an issue at all. The plain fact is that we will need to be sealed to to a spouse for exaltation, but in my opinion most of the views on things beyond that are sentiment rather than fact. People like to bring up mortal issues as if they apply to the eternities. Like anyone in the Celestial Kingdom will be anything but perfectly loving, just, kind, wonderful, majestic, powerful, beautiful, and fully and completely awesome. I don't say I understand things of the eternities any better than anyone, but applying just a wee bit of logic to things, it strikes me that it won't end up much mattering who our spouses are or are not as long as we're sealed to someone, because everyone there will be entirely and completely desirable (even if desirability has anything to do with the matter).

This is like grubs worrying about what sort of dirt their grub hole will be in once they're magically made human or something. To which the human might rightly say, "You don't understand, but just you wait and see. You won't care about what kind of dirt grub holes are made of anymore. You can't understand these things because...you know...you're a grub...but trust me."

6 hours ago, Reece said:

why isn't that what we stress (especially to primary children who think they won't have a family in the after life if theirs isn't the ideal situation)? 

Because we expect children to grow up.

6 hours ago, Reece said:

I believe it is also immature thinking that we will all have to be linked generationally through temple covenant to enjoy all the blessings the Father has to offer; 

You do realize that you're calling God's ways immature here?

You don't want to be called traumatic or faithless and yet you are consistently expressing just those things.

6 hours ago, Reece said:

as this cannot be the story for many many people due to divorce, remarriage after deaths, adoption, etc., regardless of their individual worthiness. 

Well this is just wrong.

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11 hours ago, Reece said:

I don't know why it's assumed I have "trauma" or don't have faith. I obviously am moving forward with faith without having all the answers. To those who have said or insinuated I am traumatized or lack faith; you think it's wrong to have questions? I certainly don't believe we will ever have all the answers here on earth. But I also don't believe it's wrong to question things. In fact it's either naive or conceited not to.  I have enjoyed and appreciate most of the thoughts given here. The gospel is true. Its members, even apostles, and their interpretations are not perfect.  Discussion is good. We have a lot of answers others don't, but when we stop wondering, discussing, and discovering, we stop progressing. I guess to ME, the gospel is about LOVE and service, and yes, families. The work in the temple, which is sealing us back to God is real work, but still, the majority of that IS symbolism of covenants and the after life, and when we look at it literally it starts to not make sense unless all families stay together. I will just keep believing that God is good and if I do what I can and take advantage of the atonement I will not have sadness or miss family members in the afterlife.  Anyway....thanks for the input. 

And if your prior post had been limited to saying...  "I don't really get the Sealing ordinance"  I doubt anyone would have questioned your faith...

 

But you didn't limit yourself...   You also doubted the need for temples... which includes all the work for the dead, which also leads to the need for family history... as well as all the ordinances beyond baptism for the living.  You also have repeatedly called into question the amount of resources that the Church is putting toward temples which calls into question on if you believe this is Christ's Church and being lead by him.

Those other accusations are more then "I just have a question about something"....  They are "I think the church is wrong and I am right" and they are very much not the same things.

 

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11 hours ago, Reece said:

Well actually, you reiterate some of my points. If it has only to do with eternal MARRIAGES, that's more simple but still brings up questions, such as; when a guy is divorced, remarries, is sealed to a second spouse but he first never remarries. Or....a spouse dies after sealing and a woman spends her life with someone else whom she can't be sealed to, etc. 

To say it only has to do with sealing a married couple ignores the fact that we push children being sealed to parents (as my adopted children were to me), and as we do work for the dead and seal all children to parents. 

In my humble opinion, if we focused only on the sealing of married couples and there weren't a double standard with men and women and the number of people they could be sealed to, it would be fairly straight forward and simple. Just being sealed to your spouse, and therefore back to our Ftaher in Heaven. I absolutely don't think it's about who you are going to live with, and believe it's far more about being sealed to your spouse to become a God and Godess. So my question is, why isn't that what we stress (especially to primary children who think they won't have a family in the after life if theirs isn't the ideal situation)? You're right. It IS immature thinking. I believe it is also immature thinking that we will all have to be linked generationally through temple covenant to enjoy all the blessings the Father has to offer; as this cannot be the story for many many people due to divorce, remarriage after deaths, adoption, etc., regardless of their individual worthiness. 

Reece, I'm Filipino.  In the Philippines, divorce is illegal.  It still mind-boggles me that divorce (and abortion and gay marriage) is legal in the USA.

You say the Eternal Plan of Families cannot be the story because of divorce, remarriage, deaths, adoptions, etc. etc.  Everything you're saying here are mortal conditions.  Just because the United States Government said you are divorced, or that the United States Government, for that matter, says you are married, doesn't mean that you are as far as Eternal Life is concerned.  Even those ordinances performed in the temple for the dead doesn't mean they are as us mortals believe in the afterlife (remember, the people in the Spirit World you are performing ordinances for may well say, no way, Jose, I ain't getting sealed to him!).

So really, what I see here is you getting confused because you are applying mortal conditions to eternal principles.  It is FAITH that sees you through these questions.  Have Faith that everything will all work out as God desires - even if we don't quite see HOW it is all going to work out.

Also on your thinking that you can build more temples if you spend less on each one... this is not true.  I know, for a fact, the Church has money to build that temple in Cebu LOOONNNNGGG before it actually got built.  Temples are built according to the faithfulness of those that the temple will serve.  The Church will not build a temple where there is not enough people of faith that will be served by it.  The Church will also not hold off on building a temple where there is need for it.  The temples currently standing today is the number of temples the faithful of today requires.

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5 hours ago, estradling75 said:

And if your prior post had been limited to saying...  "I don't really get the Sealing ordinance"  I doubt anyone would have questioned your faith...

 

But you didn't limit yourself...   You also doubted the need for temples... which includes all the work for the dead, which also leads to the need for family history... as well as all the ordinances beyond baptism for the living.  You also have repeatedly called into question the amount of resources that the Church is putting toward temples which calls into question on if you believe this is Christ's Church and being lead by him.

Those other accusations are more then "I just have a question about something"....  They are "I think the church is wrong and I am right" and they are very much not the same things.

 

I DO get the sealing ordinance. Hats why I didn't say I didn't. And...wow. You really assume a lot of things that aren't there. 

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12 hours ago, Reece said:

In my humble opinion, if we focused only on the sealing of married couples and there weren't a double standard with men and women and the number of people they could be sealed to, it would be fairly straight forward and simple. Just being sealed to your spouse, and therefore back to our Ftaher in Heaven. I absolutely don't think it's about who you are going to live with, and believe it's far more about being sealed to your spouse to become a God and Godess.

My earlier post to this thread aside, I do think it matters who one is sealed to as a spouse--the "god-unit" is a man and a woman together; and the identity of each party in that god-unit will be of more than incidental significance. 

With regard to the double-standard; I think the issue is that so far as our theology teaches--in the eternities, a man can (not necessarily will, but can) be married to more than one woman; but the reverse is (apparently) not also true.  If that is correct, then women in the here-and-now do need to put some serious thought into which one of multiple husbands they wish to be sealed to through the eternities; and the current policy does force us to at least contemplate things that most of us would--frankly--rather ignore.

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5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yep. Life is complicated. And there are complicated things that we do not know, exactly, how they will work out. And how could we? Would you expect the church to set a policy where the divorced woman who never remarries will be forced back together with that man in the eternities? Or that the righteous man who has died loses his sealing to the woman he loves because she spent her life with someone else? How could the church possibly answer these sorts of questions with policy or principle? They are, obviously, going to be highly individual, and judged and decided upon based on the hearts of individuals, and the only one who will and can truly know what is right in these situations is God. Hence, we trust in God. Otherwise, making up answers is as likely as not to just cause problems.

No it doesn't. I addressed the the sealing of children to parents (as have others) I think quite adequately. Once again, you're conflating things by using a generic terms such as "it". You can't do that an communicate clearly. "It" has to do with...???  What is "it"?

You might as well say something akin to, "If we have to be sealed to our spouses to gain exaltation then why do we need to be baptized?"

But one has nothing to do with the other. We are baptized for a completely different reason than we are sealed to our spouses. And we are sealed to our children, imo, for a completely different reason than we are sealed to our spouses. That doesn't invalidate the importance of parent/child sealing -- and this has been addressed by Just A Guy as well as others.

Actually the sealing of parent to children is quite a bit more simple. Everyone sealed to their parents in a chain back to Adam, and if someone isn't faithful the link remains unbroken through via extended generations (as in, if my Father isn't faithful then my sealing goes to my grandpa, etc., etc...if none are faithful between me and Adam, so be it, I'm sealed to Adam...but it is through the chain of Father to Son (rather than trying to figure out who's been faithful or not)). Sure there are some complications there, but for the most part, it's pretty simple.

The spousal sealing thing is a bit more complicated, but I don't expect it's anywhere near as complicated as you're making it out to be. Nor do I consider the so-called "double standard" with men and women an issue at all. The plain fact is that we will need to be sealed to to a spouse for exaltation, but in my opinion most of the views on things beyond that are sentiment rather than fact. People like to bring up mortal issues as if they apply to the eternities. Like anyone in the Celestial Kingdom will be anything but perfectly loving, just, kind, wonderful, majestic, powerful, beautiful, and fully and completely awesome. I don't say I understand things of the eternities any better than anyone, but applying just a wee bit of logic to things, it strikes me that it won't end up much mattering who our spouses are or are not as long as we're sealed to someone, because everyone there will be entirely and completely desirable (even if desirability has anything to do with the matter).

This is like grubs worrying about what sort of dirt their grub hole will be in once they're magically made human or something. To which the human might rightly say, "You don't understand, but just you wait and see. You won't care about what kind of dirt grub holes are made of anymore. You can't understand these things because...you know...you're a grub...but trust me."

Because we expect children to grow up.

You do realize that you're calling God's ways immature here?

You don't want to be called traumatic or faithless and yet you are consistently expressing just those things.

Well this is just wrong.

You are just wrong. Wrong about my intent, the things I wonder about, etc. I feel you have completely misread it, judged, criticized and think you are superior. I think it's wrong to not discuss things in an adult and loving manner. NONE of us have the answers. Having questions and wanting to get others takes on things we do not know is not faithless or having "trauma" LOL! Maybe it's projection? I see why so many look at the church as judgmental and self righteous. Anyway...I DO appreciate the kind and thoughtful replies. Peace out. 

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5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yep. Life is complicated. And there are complicated things that we do not know, exactly, how they will work out. And how could we? Would you expect the church to set a policy where the divorced woman who never remarries will be forced back together with that man in the eternities? Or that the righteous man who has died loses his sealing to the woman he loves because she spent her life with someone else? How could the church possibly answer these sorts of questions with policy or principle? They are, obviously, going to be highly individual, and judged and decided upon based on the hearts of individuals, and the only one who will and can truly know what is right in these situations is God. Hence, we trust in God. Otherwise, making up answers is as likely as not to just cause problems.

No it doesn't. I addressed the the sealing of children to parents (as have others) I think quite adequately. Once again, you're conflating things by using a generic terms such as "it". You can't do that an communicate clearly. "It" has to do with...???  What is "it"?

You might as well say something akin to, "If we have to be sealed to our spouses to gain exaltation then why do we need to be baptized?"

But one has nothing to do with the other. We are baptized for a completely different reason than we are sealed to our spouses. And we are sealed to our children, imo, for a completely different reason than we are sealed to our spouses. That doesn't invalidate the importance of parent/child sealing -- and this has been addressed by Just A Guy as well as others.

Actually the sealing of parent to children is quite a bit more simple. Everyone sealed to their parents in a chain back to Adam, and if someone isn't faithful the link remains unbroken through via extended generations (as in, if my Father isn't faithful then my sealing goes to my grandpa, etc., etc...if none are faithful between me and Adam, so be it, I'm sealed to Adam...but it is through the chain of Father to Son (rather than trying to figure out who's been faithful or not)). Sure there are some complications there, but for the most part, it's pretty simple.

The spousal sealing thing is a bit more complicated, but I don't expect it's anywhere near as complicated as you're making it out to be. Nor do I consider the so-called "double standard" with men and women an issue at all. The plain fact is that we will need to be sealed to to a spouse for exaltation, but in my opinion most of the views on things beyond that are sentiment rather than fact. People like to bring up mortal issues as if they apply to the eternities. Like anyone in the Celestial Kingdom will be anything but perfectly loving, just, kind, wonderful, majestic, powerful, beautiful, and fully and completely awesome. I don't say I understand things of the eternities any better than anyone, but applying just a wee bit of logic to things, it strikes me that it won't end up much mattering who our spouses are or are not as long as we're sealed to someone, because everyone there will be entirely and completely desirable (even if desirability has anything to do with the matter).

This is like grubs worrying about what sort of dirt their grub hole will be in once they're magically made human or something. To which the human might rightly say, "You don't understand, but just you wait and see. You won't care about what kind of dirt grub holes are made of anymore. You can't understand these things because...you know...you're a grub...but trust me."

Because we expect children to grow up.

You do realize that you're calling God's ways immature here?

You don't want to be called traumatic or faithless and yet you are consistently expressing just those things.

Well this is just wrong.

You are just wrong. Wrong about my intent, the things I wonder about, etc. I feel you have completely misread it, judged, criticized and think you are superior. I think it's wrong to not discuss things in an adult and loving manner. NONE of us have the answers. Having questions and wanting to get others takes on things we do not know is not faithless or having "trauma" LOL! Maybe it's projection? I see why so many look at the church as judgmental and self righteous. Anyway...I DO appreciate the kind and thoughtful replies. Peace out. 

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2 hours ago, Reece said:

You are just wrong. Wrong about my intent, the things I wonder about, etc. I feel you have completely misread it, judged, criticized and think you are superior. I think it's wrong to not discuss things in an adult and loving manner. NONE of us have the answers. Having questions and wanting to get others takes on things we do not know is not faithless or having "trauma" LOL! Maybe it's projection? I see why so many look at the church as judgmental and self righteous. Anyway...I DO appreciate the kind and thoughtful replies. Peace out. 

Let's just parse this. You criticize the church, temples, their purpose and expense, point out all the flaws you perceive in some core LDS doctrines, actually even going so far as to say that it's "immature thinking that we will all have to be linked generationally through temple covenant to enjoy all the blessings the Father has to offer", and when others call you on it you define them as superior, judgmental and self-righteous, and they're the ones who are not being adult or loving?

O......kay.

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From what I've seen.. there are primarily 3 points of discussion from Reece right now.

1) Paraphrasing from my understanding: "I don't necessarily agree with the amount of money and resources being dedicated to the building of temples. They could be cheaper".

I want to emphasis that the dollar amounts allocated to various parts of the church's budget, is a matter of church policy and not doctrine.

A few comments on this...

Thinking about the construction of the Salt Lake temple. Much time and effort and resources were sacrificed in the building of the temple. The possible reasons for this are many. It helped build faith and dedication in those that helped construct it. The work itself is a sacrifice. There is a tradition of "only the best for God".

In modern times, with the way tithing currently works... the resource we give to the church that is used in temple construction is primarily cash. Depending on how you may pay tithing, it may not feel like that big of a deal. Like income tax.. for some people it may get automatically sent out without them thinking about it due to automatic withdrawals. or sometimes even writing a check each month or handing cache over to the bishop may still not feel like a big deal. But that is part of our sacrifice.

But... because we hire construction workers to build these sorts of things for us. We may feel a bit more detached from the construction of the temple. We may feel that it is unnecessary to make the temples that nice. And you know what.. I think its okay to feel that way. I think it is just fine to feel like "I wish that more of my tithing money went to other things".

For whatever reason.. the general authorities either through their opinions or through revelation, feel it important to make the temples really nice, and probably not just because the kingdom of God is nice. They also feel like they should be built to survive through natural disasters.

But for whatever reason... they feel like its the way it should be done.. and until they receive inspiration otherwise, it is the way it will be done. Church policy is policy.. and policies change occasionally, and you can hope that they will change.. but hopefully you don't stake your testimony on that.. because there may be reasons that we don't understand for them being that way. But if its a problem.. I'm confident that God will fix it in his own time and in his own way.

 

2) Paraphrasing from my understanding: "In my mind I feel like it would make the most sense if the afterlife worked like such and such. And if it does work like that, then things in the church would be more like this and this."

I think its important to think about things from our own perspective. But we should be careful to keep in mind how much more God knows than us. And you know what you could be entirely right, but the world may not be ready for that. God will make sure that things work out in the end though. I appreciate Reece sharing their opinion on these matters.

 

3) Paraphrasing from my understanding: "Our lack of detail in the afterlife, and our lack of details concerning sealings and eternal families brings up some questions for me and people I know". 

This is definitely a pain point for people. Real life doesn't always mean the perfect Mormon family setup. And that makes the afterlife confusing, and maybe a bit concerning.

I know a lot of people that have a lot of faith in the church, but absolutely do not want to be sealed to their earthly family. And all I can say to them is that hopefully those family members that enter the celestial kingdom will be more pleasant as perfected beings, and that we probably really aren't able to fully comprehend what the afterlife is really like.. so.. try to keep an open mind.

 

Anyway.. I think Reece is getting a lot of flack for expressing their thoughts on temples and sealings and eternal families. Reading it, I don't think they are trying to say that the church is wrong, just that certain policies don't entirely make sense to them. And you know what that is okay. I feel like we should try to not put too many words in Reece's mouth.

Note: I am not a moderator.. just giving my 3 cents on this discussion.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On June 29, 2016 at 11:39 PM, changed said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you believe the glory of heaven is?  What are the biggest blessings there are?  

I've always thought the biggest glory is family... it's not gold streets and harps, but people...  

the glory is love - giving and receiving genuine love is tricky business, its something that involves free agency, which is something that God cannot just force on everyone... something we have to figure out, and then start building ourselves.... jmo.

I agree....it's a perfect knowledge and a perfect love. And at the risk of being attacked for my curiosity again; that brings me back to my original post. So I wonder, because I look at people, very good, loving, wise, people with happy righteous families who I believe will have and be perfectly intelligent and loving in the eternities. I don't think because they chose not to go through a ceremony in a specific building that I will be "above" them. I know, we believe they will have the opportunity to be sealed, etc. my mind just takes me to why is that necessary? I don't need an answer here. I have absolute faith that A perfect God will have it all worked out. I just like to discuss it and get others views on the topic. And for the record (responding to a different response);  I view church policy and opinions in the church differently than God and his plan. We (as humans in a religion) are far from perfect and we do NOT know everything!  So to say I'm calling God's plan or his word anything but perfect is wrong. 

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On June 27, 2016 at 3:59 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Let's just parse this. You criticize the church, temples, their purpose and expense, point out all the flaws you perceive in some core LDS doctrines, actually even going so far as to say that it's "immature thinking that we will all have to be linked generationally through temple covenant to enjoy all the blessings the Father has to offer", and when others call you on it you define them as superior, judgmental and self-righteous, and they're the ones who are not being adult or loving?

O......kay.

I'm sorry you seem to have been offended by the word immature. I've explained that in my mind I just don't see the enormous significance of the PLACE one makes a promise and commitment, and have said that maybe that is MY immature thinking as I am human...and I perfectly trust that God will work everything out. Stating the things I wonder about isn't criticizing. It's opening a discussion for the purposes of learning (or so I thought). I'm welcome to ANY other opinions or thoughts.  Just don't tell me I'm wrong, etc. 

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35 minutes ago, Reece said:

I look at people, very good, loving, wise, people with happy righteous families who I believe will have and be perfectly intelligent and loving in the eternities. I don't think because they chose not to go through a ceremony in a specific building that I will be "above" them.

We assume that you have chosen "to go through a ceremony in a specific building".

If there is no advantage of making and keeping Temple covenants, why does Father command us to make them?

If a Temple marriage (more than just the ordinance and ceremony) do nothing for us, why does He command us to build the buildings and use them as He directs?

There are good people in all churches and in no church at all, but they cannot get the blessings unless they follow the commandments, just as we do. They will not be condemned for the failure, but they cannot be blessed, either.

Were we to extend your argument, there is no reason to be baptized, or to take the Sacrament. I mean, they're good people, right?

Lehi

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On June 27, 2016 at 3:59 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Let's just parse this. You criticize the church, temples, their purpose and expense, point out all the flaws you perceive in some core LDS doctrines, actually even going so far as to say that it's "immature thinking that we will all have to be linked generationally through temple covenant to enjoy all the blessings the Father has to offer", and when others call you on it you define them as superior, judgmental and self-righteous, and they're the ones who are not being adult or loving?

O......kay.

I'm sorry you seem to have been offended by the word immature. I've explained that in my mind I just don't see the enormous significance of the PLACE one makes a promise and commitment, and have said that maybe that is MY immature thinking as I am human...and I perfectly trust that God will work everything out. Stating the things I wonder about isn't criticizing. It's opening a discussion for the purposes of learning (or so I thought). I'm welcome to ANY other opinions or thoughts.  Just don't tell me I'm wrong, etc. 

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20 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

We assume that you have chosen "to go through a ceremony in a specific building".

If there is no advantage of making and keeping Temple covenants, why does Father command us to make them?

If a Temple marriage (more than just the ordinance and ceremony) do nothing for us, why does He command us to build the buildings and use them as He directs?

There are good people in all churches and in no church at all, but they cannot get the blessings unless they follow the commandments, just as we do. They will not be condemned for the failure, but they cannot be blessed, either.

Were we to extend your argument, there is no reason to be baptized, or to take the Sacrament. I mean, they're good people, right?

Lehi

Thanks for your thoughts. This is what I think: (and please dont assume I'm saying anyone is wrong or criticizing...I'm just thinking out loud for the sake of discussion) 

If God tells us to do something we do it. We have faith in this church that we have leaders who receive revelation and we follow it. I still believe we use our own reasoning. So...if I'm asked to do something and see no harm in it, I do it in faith whether or not I see the benefit of reasoning, but it doesn't stop me from trying to understand Gods ways. Usually with my faith and action I have experiences that bless me and I start to understand more. But sometimes I don't. 

I could be wrong, but there are clear reasons (in scripture) to be baptized and subsequently take the sacrament to renew that. The temple is less clear; especially when you start factoring in step families, outliving spouses, etc. We aren't even really sure if Jesus himself was sealed to spouse, or taught that we should be.  

There are some personal and current blessings, such as being able to get out of the world for a while and see from an eternal perspective, and learning about our ancestors. I feel others can do that without a temple built by our church.  It is definitely easier for us, and so I may argue its for US, not because God requires it  or maybe he only requires it so that we do it.  I do believe it's for us, not because He needs the glory or a house built in His name. As for the other blessings (being with a family in the eternities)  as I have stated, seems muddled since we have a minority of people who fit the ideal scenario. 

Of course there are blessings from keeping the covenants in the temple. So far in my life....I haven't experienced anything that another couple couldn't also experience by being faithful to each other, praying, etc.  I do it because it's what we are taught to do, and keep trying to understand more of the reasons. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Reece said:

 

I could be wrong, but there are clear reasons (in scripture) to be baptized and subsequently take the sacrament to renew that. The temple is less clear; especially when you start factoring in step families, outliving spouses, etc. We aren't even really sure if Jesus himself was sealed to spouse, or taught that we should be.  

 

The only reason you would find the Temple less clear is if you have doubts about modern Revelation and Modern Prophets...  That while you believe the restoration and Joseph Smith calling you doubt the ones who came after.  I don't have to look very far at all to find President Monson and others telling us quite clearly how important temples are.

If that is your case then you will not find the answer trying to puzzle out temples... You can only find your answers trying to puzzle out who in our day has authority to speak for God

 

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So far...no one has the answers to the questions I have; not even the prophets. It's not about how important we are told they are but why specifically. Is it to be with our families forever? If so...there are a lot of what ifs. Is it just about being sealed to God? If so, why do we teach everyone (especially children) that it's about having a family forever. Is it only about a ritual and place to remind us of the eternal plan and that this life is hard but temporary? Is it about the promises we make there? If so, why does where we make them matter?  If any prophet has answered those questions clearly I missed it, and would like to read it.  I just don't think we can truly understand it all in our mortal state; but I do like to hear other perspectives. 

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4 minutes ago, Reece said:

So far...no one has the answers to the questions I have; not even the prophets. It's not about how important we are told they are but why specifically. Is it to be with our families forever? If so...there are a lot of what ifs. Is it just about being sealed to God? If so, why do we teach everyone (especially children) that it's about having a family forever. Is it only about a ritual and place to remind us of the eternal plan and that this life is hard but temporary? Is it about the promises we make there? If so, why does where we make them matter?  If any prophet has answered those questions clearly I missed it, and would like to read it.  I just don't think we can truly understand it all in our mortal state; but I do like to hear other perspectives. 

If I tell you that it is very important not to point a gun at your head and pull the trigger...  You have a choice... you can do it anyway because I did not explain why... or you can trust that I know what I am saying.

And you should be able to trust God a lot more then me and have Faith that he gives instructions for a reason.  Instead of belittling and thinking you with your limited information can out think God on what is important.

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7 minutes ago, Reece said:

why do we teach everyone (especially children) that it's about having a family forever

We teach it because it's easy to understand. Many never get beyond that "primary answer".

7 minutes ago, Reece said:

Is it only about a ritual and place to remind us of the eternal plan and that this life is hard but temporary?

It is about much, much more that the ritual, and (given that these same ordinances were done on mountains and in an upper room) it's not about the place, per se, either*. It's about the Priesthood and the covenants, both the promises we make and the promises He makes if we observe the rules.
* These alternative sites were approved, and so, for all intents and purposes, they were Temples, at the time.

How hard life is has little to do with Temple covenants. Everyone faces hardships, but the Temples give us more reason to overcome them.

8 minutes ago, Reece said:

Is it about the promises we make there? If so, why does where we make them matter?

Where is important because God has established His Temples as the unique places on the earth where such covenants can be made. They are the only places no the earth where His Priesthood officiates in these ordinances. So,it boils down to who is authorized to act for God in this matter. Right now, the only man on the face of the earth who holds the keys of the ordinances, of these covenants, is Thomas S. Monson. He has delegated authority to a few hundred or thousand men around the world to perform them, but it is solely by the keys he holds that they are of value.

Lehi

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Referring to, 

"If I tell you that it is very important not to point a gun at your head and pull the trigger...  You have a choice... you can do it anyway because I did not explain why... or you can trust that I know what I am saying.

And you should be able to trust God a lot more then me and have Faith that he gives instructions for a reason.  Instead of belittling and thinking you with your limited information can out think God on what is important."

I'm not sure why people keep jumping to he conclusion that since I don't have all the answers and want to discuss my thoughts...I don't have faith or a testimony or I'm bashing the church. Apparently, you don't have the answers either. But since I voice my questions it feels threatening to some. There's another choice: don't pull the trigger, and then ask why....and keep trying to find out why. 

The article just posted on this site was coincidentally very relevant here. 

http://lds.net/blog/faith/belief/dont-get-testimony-take-one/

Edited by Reece
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9 minutes ago, Reece said:

I'm not sure why people keep jumping to he conclusion that since I don't have all the answers and want to discuss my thoughts...I don't have faith or a testimony or I'm bashing the church. Apparently, you don't have the answers either. But since I voice my questions it feels threatening to some. There's another choice: don't pull the trigger, and then ask why....and keep trying to find out why. 

 

Because of HOW you are asking your questions...

Everyone has questions...  Questions themselves are not the problems...  When you questions turn to belittling the things God have setup... well then that no longer asking questions that is attacking.  And attacks draw a completely different response then questions

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14 minutes ago, Reece said:

I'm not sure why people keep jumping to he conclusion that since I don't have all the answers and want to discuss my thoughts...I don't have faith or a testimony or I'm bashing the church. Apparently, you don't have the answers either.

It's not the questions that lead to the apparent conclusion, it's more the way you present them. You seem to be saying that the Temple covenants of sealing have no real value. That's not at all correct. No one will be exalted without them. They happen in the Temples and no where else. They happen under the authority of the keys of the Priesthood, and by no other men. Those are absolutes. They cannot be changed, not even by God Himself (except, when we're too poor to build a Temple, He can dedicate a place for that purpose temporarily).

No one has all the answers. Please don't take offense at the wording of this almost-a-joke, but the Jewish sages say that one fool can ask more questions than ten wise men can answer.  In this case, it means that we can ask questions that we cannot understand the answers. Asking the questions isn't wrong, it's just futile.

We have tried to answer as best we can. No, the answers are not perfect, and they are certainly not complete. But, as far as I can tell, they are correct within the limits of what we know.

Lehi

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5 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Because of HOW you are asking your questions...

Everyone has questions...  Questions themselves are not the problems...  When you questions turn to belittling the things God have setup... well then that no longer asking questions that is attacking.  And attacks draw a completely different response then questions

Well if you took something I said as belittling, that was not my intent. 

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