Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think


tesuji
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3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And what are the Choices that a member of the Celestial Kingdom is going to make by definition of the term?

If we could easily define that for each and every choice in this life, we'd all be angels or demons already.  But because the Lord does not wish to command us in all things, we are left to feel that out for ourselves by seeking out the Spirit in all our individual situations and callings in life.

The idea that we must fit one single mold of what clothing to wear or how much money we make or what home or car we buy doesn't seem to make sense given that we have so many different callings in life.  

I could condemn people for being too vain because they care about their clothing and hair, etc.  But then I see the LDS model that has made a big splash in Europe recently and realize that he's spreading the gospel in his own way.

I could condemn rich people for wearing costly apparel and having big homes or even for simply having/making more money than a poor person.  But then I hear about all the charitable acts that Mitt Romney does out of his own pocket -- not through a foundation, not through government, and he doesn't even report it on his taxes.  This is all in addition to tithes and offerings.  He needs to wear the costly apparel to do business so he can have the money to do such charitable acts.

I could condemn people for not homeschooling their kids.  But each parent has a reason for  making the decision they do.  How am I to judge whether that is right for them in their situation with all the variables that I'm not familiar with?

I could also look down my nose at poor people and think they're lazy or stupid or lacking ambition.  But I know many poor.  I have been broke myself.  I know many of them work very hard.  I know they have dreams and ambitions that they work towards.  And I know that they've got more brains than even they know they have.

The point is that the principles are all there.  But the application of them are legion.  And to point to something like income disparity as an evil in and of itself doesn't make gospel sense to me.

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14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The point is that the principles are all there.  But the application of them are legion.  And to point to something like income disparity as an evil in and of itself doesn't make gospel sense to me.

And I am not the one making that claim...  I am countering the suggestion that if more people "understood and studied what Zion was" then "the problem" would go away..  It is simply not true, the best it does is help that person be better prepared to live in Zion

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10 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Another perspective is the rich CEO that owns a fortune 500 company will do all their manufacturing in China to save money, how is that helping the US economy? Then that same rich CEO will hide half his money in off shore accounts. How is that helping the US economy? Yeah he may invest or spend millions in the US economy but percentage wise only 50% of the money that he controls is put back into the US economy.

Lower prices to consumers is more important than higher wages to workers.

Besides, it's not just about economics, it's more about freedom. Why should anyone be forced by tariffs or taxes, or restrictions on anything to "Buy American [sic]"? If I want to buy Chinese or Vietnamese, or Pakistani, or Mexican, why should anyone object?

Lehi

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55 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Lower prices to consumers is more important than higher wages to workers.

 

This doesn't make sense.  Consumers and Workers are the same people.  You are a consumer AND a worker - unless you're a full welfare recipient.  Labor and Price are dependent on each other.  Basically, you want to be the worker for your own consumption... you don't want an environment where there is more consumption than there is production... or there's more production than consumption.  In its purest form (zero regulation), production equals consumption.

 

55 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Besides, it's not just about economics, it's more about freedom. Why should anyone be forced by tariffs or taxes, or restrictions on anything to "Buy American [sic]"? If I want to buy Chinese or Vietnamese, or Pakistani, or Mexican, why should anyone object?

Lehi

You are free to buy anything from anywhere.  You are not forced to buy anything (before Obamacare).   But you get to pay the price for it.  Predatory pricing - either price gouging or its opposite - doesn't do anybody any favors when it crosses international lines across international currency.  Sure, it's great to work in California and live in Texas - big money work, low money consumption.  That's just fine because the United States is one economy.  Doing the same across currencies - living in the Philippines while working in Florida is fine too (dollar flows out of the US into the Philippines) - until trade deficits bankrupt America.

 

Edited by anatess2
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37 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Confession: As of late I actively have sought out US-made products. This doesn't mean all my stuff is American-made, but I'm starting to get picky where I can be.

We tried that once.  But time and again we found that most of the stuff we needed were simply not made in the US.  So, if we wanted the product at all, we had to buy foreign or do without.  Then we had the unfortunate experience of buying a belt that was made in the USA that fell apart in two months.

I don't know what to think of this.

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5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

We tried that once.  But time and again we found that most of the stuff we needed were simply not made in the US.  So, if we wanted the product at all, we had to buy foreign or do without.  Then we had the unfortunate experience of buying a belt that was made in the USA that fell apart in two months.

I don't know what to think of this.

It's the result of a backward work ethic that thinks jobs exist for the sole purpose of providing workers with an income, and the quality of the work is completely secondary.

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Experience has shown me that there are many who live in poverty simply by their own choice and they lack the drive to climb up out of it. Obviously this isnt a blanket generalization, but it does apply to a large amount of people.

In my younger days when I was poor, I worked in a convenience store in probably one of the nastiest part of town. In my few years working there I was amazed at the constant stream of people buying garbage. The typical transaction was a 40  or a six pack, pack of smokes and chips or something like that. Some of these folks did that a couple times during my shift esp to get more liquor. Some were so frequent and predictable I had their choice of smokes ready for them when they got to the register.

Families would even do their grocery shopping there (this store was comparable to a circle k- def not a place you would buy groceries). They bring in their kids, shop and then check out with two transactions. 1 was the groceries and the kids bought them with the old tear out food stamps and the second was the beer, smokes and lottery tickets and mom/dad would pay in cash.

Fast forward to 20 yrs of police work, I have been inside literally hundreds of different homes of poor people. Most of them smoked, most drank and if i was to check the floorboard of their cars I bet I would find old non-winning lottery tickets. Of course some of these homes did not have these things going on, but they were rare.

Imagine a pack-a-day smoking habit. I think back then Marlboro Reds were $1.25 per pack. If the smoker simply kept that 1.25 each day and saved that every day for 1 year they could buy $450 worth of the stock of Phillip Morris (Now Altria) , reinvest dividends and they would have $311,000 today. That is just a one-time investment.

Most smokers in the US are the poorer people. The investment they make every day in tobacco not only contributes to ill health, it also keeps them poor. In the meantime, I invest heavily in Altria stock (Marlboro and Copenhagen and other sin stocks as well)  and will continue to invest a sizable portion of my portfolio there since in the long term I'll be taxed to the hilt to pay for their medical care, food stamps, welfare etc. They have a choice and they choose to smoke and drink over pretty much everything else. I feel sorry for them only in the respect that they dont have the motivation or will power to quit and do something productive for themselves and build a better future for their kids. For full disclosure, I am an ex smoker so I know what it is like to battle an addiction- not fun, but definitely not as hard as it seems.

http://www.buyupside.com/backtest/divrebackdisplaysummary.php?symbol=mo&amountinitial=450&amount=0&interval=1&start_month=05&start_year=1982&end_month=05&end_year=2016&submit=Calculate+Results

Another example- Heres an acquaintance who upon leaving the military they were under the impression they would inherit a family business and live the good life. Well just a few years after leaving the service the business was sold, the money squandered and this person never saw a dime of it. So instead of moving on and doing whatever, they have blamed the lack of inheriting the business as the cause of their poverty. Never mind the fact GI bill was avail to go to school, never mind they chose jobs in small towns where employers had no benefits, never mind they refused to invest in a small stock or mutual fund to fund their retirement (because the market is rigged), never mind the fact they purchased a Whole Life insurance policy and got robbed blind by an insurance agent and still do to this day. They have even taken a number of loans against it over the years. You see, all the opportunity was in front of this person, but they chose to be beaten down, they chose to not make an effort, they chose not to go get a college education which was essentially free and they chose to put what little money they did have under a mattress and now 50 yrs later they are living off Social Security and that is all they have. Literally ALL they have. It is too bad, but they have listened to no one.

Could have done so much more, but chose not to. I have more real stories like this, but wee all know people in this situation. It is not the fault of the CEO, it is largely their fault. Perhaps not their fault for getting into it, but certainly for dwelling in it because they just accepted poverty as their way of life.

There are situations of course where poverty just happens due to whatever goes on in life, but much of it is controllable by the one who is in poverty. It may take time to escape it, but it can be done- with discipline. 

As for the disparity in CEO pay- who cares what they make? No one starts a business so they can subsidize others. They build it because they want to make money and will pay any needed labor what the market will demand. The CEO owes nobody a thing other than the compensation AGREED upon. The CEO is paid what he/she is paid because the board of directors decided they were worth it for whatever reason. When people start quitting for other jobs, the the pay will be increased until market equilibrium is reached in terms of compensation.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, paracaidista508 said:

Experience has shown me that there are many who live in poverty simply by their own choice and they lack the drive to climb up out of it.

Poverty is relative.  You might think they live in poverty by their own choice but they look at themselves and think, I'm not poor.

Experience has shown me that a lot of people think there's Poverty in the US.  A lot of people outside of the US will be confused at what the US calls Poverty.

Edited by anatess2
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5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 

Poverty is relative.  You might think they live in poverty by their own choice but they look at themselves and think, I'm not poor.

Experience has shown me that a lot of people think there's Poverty in the US.  A lot of people outside of the US will be confused at what the US calls Poverty.

Agreed, I'm addressing the ones lamenting their situations. I have family members who are as broke as you can get, but they are happy. Also happy to ask for a bailout from their parents or grandparents too on not too rare an occasion. 

As for outside the us...yes agreed. Our American poor are richer in terms of material things than most everyone in the foreign countries I have been stationed in.

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Hi folks, just a parting comment from me here. I think there was some misunderstanding about my OP.

My point was that there is great inequality in our world, and unfortunately it even appears to be growing in the US. This inequality is contrary to what the gospel teaches us. I presented the contrasting scenarios that the scriptures give us, that show us that a better way is possible.

My intent was to invite people to ponder the scriptural example.

So, more like how you would discuss the question of inequality in Sunday School, rather than in a Trump vs. Clinton debate. I think the former approach is more likely to yield understanding.

My intent was to invite people to ponder the scriptural example, and to think beyond a mere worldly partisan mentality, and to consider what the gospel teaches us on this topic, whatever our various political affiliations might be.

I think some of you took my post as an invitation to argue politics, even as a liberal throwing down the gauntlet to the mostly conservative members of the forum. I think political debates are fruitless, because they usually are mostly heat and not much light, so to speak.

Because it was not my intent to engage in political debate, I believe some of you felt like I was being evasive. I, on the other hand, felt personally attacked and felt like I was being treated uncivilly, and therefore I mostly withdrew from the thread.

Politics is one of those topics where people's views are mostly already set, and that people often feel strongly about. Among LDS members in particular, it is likely to generate contention and ill-feelings, which drives away the all-important influence of the Holy Spirit, and is moving us in the opposite direction of the "one in heart and one mind" Zion we are all supposed to be working for.

I may be partly off in my assessment, because I haven't read much here past page 2. I won't be reading further here after this post, and I'm going to try to stay in non-political threads in the future on this website.

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18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them. - Moses 7:18

 

Edited by tesuji
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Yes, we are supposed to live the Law of Consecration and Stewardship. Unfortunately, a lot of people want the Consecration part, and not too many are as interested in the Stewardship part. "Yea, verily, I want you all to put into the storehouse, and the bishop will give me "my share", as much as I need. Oh!? You want me to produce, too? Huh?! I want to write poetry and paint landscapes."

1 hour ago, tesuji said:

My point was that there is great inequality in our world, and unfortunately it even appears to be growing in the US.

And you say this as if it were a bad thing. The inequality in the world and in USA is a direct reflection of the differences in people's efforts, skills, intelligence, and a host of other things inherent in the very world we must live in, you know, the one God gave us.

Obedience to the Law of Consecration and Stewardship is manifest in one's making a generous Fast Offering, in serving missions, in feeding the missionaries, in housing them, in storing food (and clothing and fuel), in getting out of debt, in earning a living by producing things people need and want. It's in building Temples and chapels, in cleaning them, and stacking the chairs following our meetings. It's in doing Home Teaching and Visiting Teaching and assuring that people have meaningful work to do, and allowing them to fail if they're not producing enough to live on.

When we live in a world where people don't have to deal with scarcity, where our differences don't matter, where everyone contributes to the storehouse, then the inequality of outcomes won't exist based on the inequality of inputs. We don't live in that world.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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1 hour ago, tesuji said:

Hi folks, just a parting comment from me here. I think there was some misunderstanding about my OP.

Ok.  I'm listening.

.....<A bunch of stuff that we all are aware of and agree on but really does nothing to explain this thread>

I may be partly off in my assessment, because I haven't read much here past page 2. I won't be reading further here after this post, and I'm going to try to stay in non-political threads in the future on this website.

So, you started a thread that, according to you, no one understood.  
You never really participated at all except to say that we didn't understand you -- repeatedly.  
And now you're declaring that you're not going to participate anymore.

Uhmm... Thanks?

To everyone else, I'm going to start a new thread about "How To Become A Zion People", which is what I believe Tesuji was trying to get at.  The problem was that the central issue he was using as a conversation starter was income inequality.  Wrong way to go about starting the topic.

Edited by Guest
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I will make an admission – though I was born to and came from wealth – I thought I was born to and came from poverty.  Skimming through this thread I am convinced that few understand poverty or wealth.  For example, in my mind, there are 5 conditions that will pull a person, family, society or nation towards poverty but only one condition that will propel a person, family, society or nation towards wealth – hint the propensity towards wealth or poverty has almost nothing to do with the amount of money or resources available. 

If we study economy from a scholastic point of view – we will learn how value can change the “price” of items according to their ease or difficulty to acquire.  But the cost or price of items by itself does not create trends towards poverty or wealth.   Though we study economy from a value and cost perspective – it is my personal belief that seldom are we educated concerning how to achieve wealth or the elements that bring about poverty. 

One thing I have observed – that when someone is doing something wrong – seldom do they want to know it or change it – They, with rare exception, (and then only because they have been carefully taught and learned) do they want to know their fault and how to change – rather they will desire to blame someone else or something outside of their control.  Most often those that could learn would rather be angry with someone trying to help them change, than to become disciples in the art and science of success.  This propensity is most prevalent in health (weight control) and personal control or lack of it concerning money.  In short wealth and health can only come through discipline.  Few actually desire any responsibility of freedom but prefer rather to slander and blame their bondage – which is the essence of being damned or Satanic.

Our current social political climate (regardless of political party) will not and cannot end or even reduce poverty for to do so would make the majority of the population far too angry towards those initiating the smallest necessary change and making someone angry is a worse sin than being angry (sarcasm intended).  If any poster here is poor and desires wealth – I can teach you the principles in a single post to end your poverty – unless you have one or more of the five elements of poverty – which I personally doubt very much.  The problem with truth is not that truth is difficult to discover but that truth is disruptive of the status quo, tradition and the way things have been.

At the other end of the spectrum many think wealth is a license to waste, pillage, rape and plunder any available resource – when in truth wealth is the exact opposite.  But our current corporate culture makes wasteful idiots of us all.

 

The Traveler

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I cannot read thru' 140 responses.  That's just too much for me.

However, I did skim Gator and gave a thanks.  And from the first page highlights I saw Travelers response above.

There you have it.

The government proved that you cannot cure "poverty" if there is any real poverty in this country by handing out money.

The Johnson administration (a few years ago?) declare a "War on Poverty" and started handing out money on a wholesale basis. 

And today they report there is MORE POVERTY THAN OVER!  How do you figure? 

They have no idea what poverty is, nor what causes it.  It isn't that someone doesn't have enough money.  Because there is no such thing as enough money.

There is only that thing that we all need to remember, if we have, that we have 'sufficient for our needs'.

dc

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