Sanity check - organic food?


NeuroTypical
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Sanity check - organic food?  

16 members have voted

  1. 1. What are your thoughts about organic food?

    • My lips will not touch non-organic food. Why would I eat poison?
      0
    • I believe organic is superior to non-organic, but I'm not sure why.
      0
    • I prefer organic food because they don't use pesticides.
      1
    • I furrow my brow in disdain upon hearing the word "Monsanto".
      3
    • Organic is better because there are less/no chemicals involved.
      4
    • I realize that the term "organic" is little more than a marketing campaign dressed up with lies and half-truths.
      10
    • I have other opinions about organic food (explain below)
      3


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Organic food is about more than not just using pesticides. It's a whole philosophy of taking care of the soil, of fostering a healthy ecosystem.

From what I've read, some foods matter more than others, as far as the benefit of being organic.

I think it's a good idea. But in practice I don't buy too many organic veggies because they cost too much and I'm not convinced it matters too much, for many foods. I do think that chemical and pesticides are not a good idea when you can avoid them. I wonder what harmful effects they are having.

Quote

Organic Agriculture is a production system that sustains the health of soils, ecosystems and people. It relies on ecological processes, biodiversity and cycles adapted to local conditions, rather than the use of inputs with adverse effects.

http://www.ifoam.bio/fr/organic-landmarks/definition-organic-agriculture

 

Edited by tesuji
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Guest MormonGator

Organic food is mostly a fraud. It takes up huge amounts of land to grow, and yes-they do use pesticides. No farmer-organic or not-can not use pesticides. 

I know people worship organic food but if you look at the science behind it, there are major flaws. 

Edited by MormonGator
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26 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Organic food is mostly a fraud. It takes up huge amounts of land to grow, and yes-they do use pesticides. No farmer-organic or not-can not use pesticides. 

I know people worship organic food but if you look at the science behind it, there are major flaws. 

Well, the USDA Organic certification certainly is a joke. It's a watered down standard from real organic.

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Guest MormonGator
Guest MormonGator
8 minutes ago, Backroads said:

no, I don't go out of my way to buy it.

My sister asked me how I save money on food shopping. I said "For starters, not spending 10$ on a jar of peanut butter just because it says 'organic' on it."
 

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Yeah, a few things I've learned in the last year or so:

* Organic food is a $28 billion dollar a year industry here in the US.  They are best understood as "Big Organic" - a massive faceless for-profit industry that manipulates populations with misleading advertising, and lobbies for legislation meant to increase profits.  

* Words like "GMO", "pesticides", and "chemicals" have been hijacked and redefined, similar to the way other agenda-pushing groups hijack words like "homophobe", "racist", and "bigot".

* Food is made of chemicals.  So are people.  Water is a chemical.  The way we use it when talking about organic advantages, is due to a successful series of anti-scientific marketing campaigns that have fooled us into believing the word means something it doesn't.  

* GMOs rock, and they are the reason this earth can have 7.4 billion people on it.  

* Just about all commercially available organic farming uses pesticides.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
10 hours ago, tesuji said:

Organic food is about more than not just using pesticides. It's a whole philosophy of taking care of the soil, of fostering a healthy ecosystem.

From what I've read, some foods matter more than others, as far as the benefit of being organic.

I think it's a good idea. But in practice I don't buy too many organic veggies because they cost too much and I'm not convinced it matters too much, for many foods. I do think that chemical and pesticides are not a good idea when you can avoid them. I wonder what harmful effects they are having.

 I agree with you.  I have zero interest in gardening personally, but my husband . . . well let's just say I think gardening is his first love and I'm his second.  He now works in the job of his dreams....grounds maintenance at the temple.  He's got the lawn there looking fabulous!

He says the same thing.  He will go on and on (yawn!  Just kidding, Hubby!) about how insect infestation is a sign of unhealthy plants.  Insects don't eat plants that are healthy, so the cure for pests is to go to the cause...make your plants healthier.  Rotate crops, fertilize your soil, etc, etc.  

He is also very frugal and doesn't want to pay extravagant amounts for organic...his solution is grow your own as much as possible.  I swear he is a displaced farmer.  He would teach every single family (or person) in the ward to garden if they would only listen to him, and yes, he would teach them organic methods.  

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8 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

 

* Food is made of chemicals.  So are people.  Water is a chemical.  The way we use it when talking about organic advantages, is due to a successful series of anti-scientific marketing campaigns that have fooled us into believing the word means something it doesn't.  

 

Are you trying to justify the use of dihydrogen monoxide in farming?

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5 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

insect infestation is a sign of unhealthy plants.  Insects don't eat plants that are healthy, so the cure for pests is to go to the cause...make your plants healthier.  Rotate crops, fertilize your soil, etc, etc.

This is a fascinating idea that I hadn't seen explained so clearly to me until now. Makes total sense if it's true. Modern agriculture a very unnatural system; that I've heard.

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6 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 

  Insects don't eat plants that are healthy, so the cure for pests is to go to the cause...

Yes and no...  Insects are perfectly willing to eat healthy plants....  Saying that they will not is kind of like saying I would not eat a t-bone steak... (totally laughable)   But an insect trying to eat a healthy plant is kind of like me trying to eat a healthy cow (for my steak of course) it is a whole lot harder.

A healthy plant has no real problem with an occasional insect...  But if you have swarms of them the plant no matter how healthy is in real danger.

As for the whole organic thing... Many of the ideas are pretty good... like sustainability in process and materials, and eating more local/fresh foods.. care in the pest control process.  But it has bloated into money grabbing fearmongering

 

 

 

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borers are attracted to unhealthy plants, sap-feeding insects tend to be attracted to healthy plants, caterpillars prefer well-watered plants, and the rest of the insects are variable in preference. Whether a plant is more or less attractive to insects when healthy, a healthy plant is more likely to survive an insect attack than an unhealthy plant.

Insect response to plant health - Phil Nixon - University of Illinois, College of Agricultural, Consumer, and Environmental Sciences

Edited by NeuroTypical
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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

As for the whole organic thing... Many of the ideas are pretty good... like sustainability in process and materials,

Why Organic Isn't 'Sustainable' - Forbes

Organic Farming Is Not Sustainable - Henry I Miller - Wall Street Journal

Are organic and non-GMO farming more sustainable than farming using GMOs? - From the Genetic Literacy Project

Quote

and eating more local/fresh foods..

People Still Don’t Know the Difference Between “Organic” and “Local” - Time - citing a study published in AgEcon

Quote

care in the pest control process.  

Mythbusting 101: Organic Farming > Conventional Agriculture - Scientific American

"What makes organic farming different, then? It's not the use of pesticides, it's the origin of the pesticides used. Organic pesticides are those that are derived from natural sources and processed lightly if at all before use. This is different than the current pesticides used by conventional agriculture, which are generally synthetic. It has been assumed for years that pesticides that occur naturally (in certain plants, for example) are somehow better for us and the environment than those that have been created by man. As more research is done into their toxicity, however, this simply isn't true, either. Many natural pesticides have been found to be potential - or serious - health risks."

Again, all it takes is one ongoing brilliant marketing and disinformation campaign from a massive multibilliondollar industry, and suddenly we believe that superfoods are a thing, and juicing is something other than being hungry while drinking only juice.

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Guest LiterateParakeet
3 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Yes and no...  Insects are perfectly willing to eat healthy plants....  Saying that they will not is kind of like saying I would not eat a t-bone steak... (totally laughable)   But an insect trying to eat a healthy plant is kind of like me trying to eat a healthy cow (for my steak of course) it is a whole lot harder.

A healthy plant has no real problem with an occasional insect...  But if you have swarms of them the plant no matter how healthy is in real danger.

My hubby agrees with you. When I told him, that couldn't be...you could not both be right, he launched into an analogy, then another analogy, and when he started on the third analogy, I laughed and begged him to stop. (Have I mentioned he's passionate about gardening?) 

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10 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 I agree with you.  I have zero interest in gardening personally, but my husband . . . well let's just say I think gardening is his first love and I'm his second.  He now works in the job of his dreams....grounds maintenance at the temple.  He's got the lawn there looking fabulous!

He says the same thing.  He will go on and on (yawn!  Just kidding, Hubby!) about how insect infestation is a sign of unhealthy plants.  Insects don't eat plants that are healthy, so the cure for pests is to go to the cause...make your plants healthier.  Rotate crops, fertilize your soil, etc, etc.  

He is also very frugal and doesn't want to pay extravagant amounts for organic...his solution is grow your own as much as possible.  I swear he is a displaced farmer.  He would teach every single family (or person) in the ward to garden if they would only listen to him, and yes, he would teach them organic methods.  

When I move into the new ward I'm looking at, I hope that you are there.

I'm also interested in working at the Temple.  And learning to use the back yard for some gardening. 

dc

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The other day I was reading up about motor skill development in young children and came across an article that was all very nice until it revealed its main quote as some woman blaming non-organic food as the main cause of fine motor skill issues. Because her 4-year-old only ate organic food and could hold a crayon.

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23 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Organic food is mostly a fraud. It takes up huge amounts of land to grow, and yes-they do use pesticides. No farmer-organic or not-can not use pesticides. 

I know people worship organic food but if you look at the science behind it, there are major flaws. 

QFT.

Standards concerning what does and does not qualify as "organic" vary so widely between jurisdictions and have so many loopholes that it's rarely worth the extra price. 

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3 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

My hubby agrees with you. When I told him, that couldn't be...you could not both be right, he launched into an analogy, then another analogy, and when he started on the third analogy, I laughed and begged him to stop. (Have I mentioned he's passionate about gardening?) 

Plants are like people in some ways...  The stronger, healthier, more vigorous they are the more physical stress they can handle (both plants and people)... But they can still be killed if the physical demands are to much (again both plants and people)

 

5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Why Organic Isn't 'Sustainable' - Forbes

Organic Farming Is Not Sustainable - Henry I Miller - Wall Street Journal

Are organic and non-GMO farming more sustainable than farming using GMOs? - From the Genetic Literacy Project

People Still Don’t Know the Difference Between “Organic” and “Local” - Time - citing a study published in AgEcon

Mythbusting 101: Organic Farming > Conventional Agriculture - Scientific American

"What makes organic farming different, then? It's not the use of pesticides, it's the origin of the pesticides used. Organic pesticides are those that are derived from natural sources and processed lightly if at all before use. This is different than the current pesticides used by conventional agriculture, which are generally synthetic. It has been assumed for years that pesticides that occur naturally (in certain plants, for example) are somehow better for us and the environment than those that have been created by man. As more research is done into their toxicity, however, this simply isn't true, either. Many natural pesticides have been found to be potential - or serious - health risks."

Again, all it takes is one ongoing brilliant marketing and disinformation campaign from a massive multibilliondollar industry, and suddenly we believe that superfoods are a thing, and juicing is something other than being hungry while drinking only juice.

 

Exactly what I meant...  Good ideas bloated into fear mongering money grabs... (without doing the good part of the good idea)

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While I personally don't go out of my way to buy organic, I will do so if the price is close to the non-organic options. I firmly believe that the benefits of eating fruits and vegetables out-weighs the risks of consuming pesticides, herbicides and so on. That being said I like to check into the EWG's dirty dozen list and do prefer to get these items organically, but I will still get them conventionally if the organic price is over 10-15% higher. Clearly organic standards aren't as stringent as they could be and mean different things to different certifying bodies. One thing that the organic label is useful for is helping to avoid genetically modified food. Sure you can argue that food has been being bred into genetic modification as long as agriculture has existed, but I simply don't see this as the same thing as splicing fish DNA into a tomato for instance. Monsanto does make me sick. I am all for them having the right to produce food the way they want to, but I don't agree that anyone should be able to patent foods and destroy farmers - especially when they are going after people who've had their crops infiltrated by monsanto's crop (and they have taken lengths to keep their crop pure).

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/MonsantovsFarmers.php

For me this makes enough of a case for me to want to avoid supporting biotech, by casting my financial vote away from their products.

However at the end of the day those who want to believe that science is firmly on their side will do so and possibly feel a sense of justified superiority for having such great scientifically analytic minds and not letting emotions cloud their judgment. I've come to decide that science is similar to religion and politics - you can find studies to support whatever it is you believe, and with enough money you can shape public opinion about what the "facts" are. Not that I 'm saying science is useless, I just don't trust a lot of what comes out as being considered scientific anymore. There is so much suppression of data in certain areas and over the top hype in others - in fact it seems that science is swayed by politics and obviously economics. The direction the wind is blowing (and the funding) is the direction studies are designed to come up with favourable findings.

My point here being that I'm not interested in having a fight with anyone about my different viewpoint on this issue. I can see based on the general attitude here that I am a dissenting voice and sense the tone of even the original post to suggest that my sanity must be in question because I don't love Monsanto and I must be stupid to pay even a penny more for something that is labeled organic. Well let me just say that my sanity has never been questioned by my doctor - I graduated college with a 4.0 GPA and my IQ suggests that in any given group of 600 people I'm likely to be the smartest, or that I'm highly gifted and possibly genius - I feel funny saying this and don't do so to brag, just to make the point that people with different views don't have to be stupid or insane.

For any interested in some articles looking at the other side a little, enjoy these select few of the many I could dig up, but as I've mentioned it's a pointless endeavour as we can all go back and forth with findings that match more closely to our individual perceptions and values.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bethhoffman/2013/07/02/gmo-crops-mean-more-herbicide-not-less/#5a3e7b07a371

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4060

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Guest MormonGator
On July 2, 2016 at 4:02 PM, mirkwood said:

So much for a birthday present this year.

Well considering I got you tickets to Supertramp that you didn't even use...

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