Dont leave the church because....

[Sunday21]

http://www.gregtrimble.com/you-should-not-leave-mormonism-for-any-of-these-5-reasons/

This guy seems pretty cool!

[NeedleinA]

6 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

http://www.gregtrimble.com/you-should-not-leave-mormonism-for-any-of-these-5-reasons/

This guy seems pretty cool!

He might be "pretty" cool but this guy is out of this world coolz!! 

http://askgramps.org/

[David13]

I wouldn't say "cool" as I don't use that word.

As to Greg Trimble's 5 I would say those would be extremely shallow reasons to leave the church.

As to Gramps, it looks like there are some well reasoned (and agreeable to me) answers there.

Thanks for both.

dc

[Maureen]

Reason 4 for not leaving the LDS church is Anti-mormon Literature. What is anti-mormon literature? Is it only literature that is written or spoken of by those who LDS believe are anti-mormon, whether the literature is true or false? For example, Sandra and Jerald Tanner mentioned the seer stone being used for translating the BofM in the '80s. They were considered anti-mormon but the information they provided regarding the seer stone is the exact information that the LDS church recognizes now as true. So is anti-mormon literature only anti-mormon when provided by those considered to be anti-mormon?

M.

[Jane_Doe]

26 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Reason 4 for not leaving the LDS church is Anti-mormon Literature. What is anti-mormon literature? 

Anti-mormons rely on spinning, half-truths, strawmen arguments, downright lies, or other falsehood methodology.  A person can be critical of the church, but still be factual and honest, though these people are generally less common (it is human tendency to polarize).

[Maureen]

11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Anti-mormons rely on spinning, half-truths, strawmen arguments, downright lies, or other falsehood methodology.  A person can be critical of the church, but still be factual and honest, though these people are generally less common (it is human tendency to polarize).

Jane_Doe, could you give an example of any anti-mormon that provided literature with any of what you have described - spinning, half-truths, strawmen arguments, downright lies, or other falsehood methodology?

M.

[Jane_Doe]

22 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Jane_Doe, could you give an example of any anti-mormon that provided literature with any of what you have described - spinning, half-truths, strawmen arguments, downright lies, or other falsehood methodology?

M.

Exhibit A: "The Godmakers"  (just for classical example)

Edited August 6, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Maureen]

4 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Exhibit A: "The Godmakers"  (just for classical example)

I definitely agree that Ed Decker's style was disingenuous and sensationalistic. I would agree that his "literature" is anti-mormon.

M.

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, Maureen said:

is anti-mormon literature only anti-mormon when provided by those considered to be anti-mormon?

A truth that's told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.
     –William Blake, "Auguries of Innocence"

Lehi
 

[LeSellers]

22 hours ago, Maureen said:

could you give an example of any anti-mormon that provided literature with any of what you have described - spinning, half-truths, strawmen arguments, downright lies, or other falsehood methodology?

The GodMakers, fer shure, but the true classics include:

1) Mormonism Unvailed

2) The Kingdom of the Cults

3) Twenty Seventh Wife Wife No. 19

Lehi

Edited August 7, 2016 by LeSellers

[Maureen]

6 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

A truth that's told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.
     –William Blake, "Auguries of Innocence"

Lehi
 

What about biographers? JAG just recently mentioned in the Rough Stone Rolling thread "...that Donna Hill wasn't exactly a raging anti-Mormon; and her book is far from a hit piece...". It's hard to tell from his wording if he still considers her an anti-mormon, but we know he doesn't see her as a raging anti-mormon. And then there's Richard Bushman who is a faithful mormon but also tells the truth in Rough Stone Rolling. So both authors tell the truth in their biographies of Joseph Smith, one is non-mormon and the other is mormon. Do you think when Donna Hill wrote her biography, that she did it with bad intent? I'm just trying to get an idea of who you think fits this quote.

M.

[LeSellers]

3 minutes ago, Maureen said:

What about biographers?

It depends on their intent, as the couplet states.

3 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Do you think when Donna Hill wrote her biography, that she did it with bad intent? I'm just trying to get an idea of who you think fits this quote.

I haven't read this book, so I can't tell. I have seen some reviews that indicate she was trying to maintain a balanced approach, so, based on that, it's probably not antimormon even if it isn't necessarily faith promoting.

Books on my list (and many others, of course) may include some truths, but it certainly isn't the authors' intent to give a balanced view. I'd have to say the contrary: they were actively trying to destroy faith.

That last sentence is the critical point: intent. And we return to Blake: A truth that's told with bad intent …

Lehi

[pam]

3 hours ago, Maureen said:

Jane_Doe, could you give an example of any anti-mormon that provided literature with any of what you have described - spinning, half-truths, strawmen arguments, downright lies, or other falsehood methodology?

M.

I sure hope she doesn't link to any anti material as she would then be violating a site rule.

[Maureen]

4 hours ago, pam said:

I sure hope she doesn't link to any anti material as she would then be violating a site rule.

She gave her example without linking to anything.

M.

[pam]

11 hours ago, pam said:

I sure hope she doesn't link to any anti material as she would then be violating a site rule.

Yes I know.  I'm just sayin'.

[Maureen]

16 hours ago, pam said:

I sure hope she doesn't link to any anti material as she would then be violating a site rule.

Quote

pam said: 

Yes I know.  I'm just sayin'. 

So you're saying that you were just trying to be funny. 

M.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Maureen

[Maureen]

19 hours ago, LeSellers said:

The GodMakers, fer shure, but the true classics include:

1) Mormonism Unvailed

2) The Kingdom of the Cults

3) Twenty Seventh Wife

Lehi

I agree that Mormonism Unvailed by E D Howe is anti-mormon since it was written deliberately against the LDS church. The Kingdom of the Cults can be considered an "anti-other-religions in general" type of book. Irving Wallace's The Twenty-Seventh Wife, IMO, can be seen either way. Wallace himself says he tried to be objective but his subject matter was Ann Eliza Webb who was very anti-mormon and anti-polygamy. She lectured for years against the LDS church and polygamy.

M.

[LeSellers]

47 minutes ago, Maureen said:

20 hours ago, LeSellers said:

The GodMakers, fer shure, but the true classics include:

1) Mormonism Unvailed

I agree that Mormonism Unvailed by E D Howe is anti-mormon since it was written deliberately against the LDS church.

One point, then.

48 minutes ago, Maureen said:

20 hours ago, LeSellers said:

The GodMakers, fer shure, but the true classics include:

2) The Kingdom of the Cults

The Kingdom of the Cults can be considered an "anti-other-religions in general" type of book.

I can agree in the broad sense. However, "Dr." Martin spent a great deal of his time attacking the LDS Church, Joseph Smith, and our most sacred practices and beliefs. It was against us that  he launched his most vitriolic, loathsome diatribes.

He didn't (falsely) claim to be a descendant of anyone but Brigham Young, nor did any of his associates pretend to have any but Oliver Cowdery as his patrilinear ancestor. (When shown neither of these to be possible, he never recanted his assertions.)

48 minutes ago, Maureen said:

20 hours ago, LeSellers said:

The GodMakers, fer shure, but the true classics include:

3) Twenty Seventh Wife

Irving Wallace's The Twenty-Seventh Wife, IMO, can be seen either way. Wallace himself says he tried to be objective but his subject matter was Ann Eliza Webb who was very anti-mormon and anti-polygamy. She lectured for years against the LDS church and polygamy.

Sorry. I meant Eliza Webb's original Wife No. 19 from which Wallace took much of his material.

Lehi

[Hemisphere]

1 hour ago, Maureen said:

I agree that Mormonism Unvailed by E D Howe is anti-mormon since it was written deliberately against the LDS church. The Kingdom of the Cults can be considered an "anti-other-religions in general" type of book. Irving Wallace's The Twenty-Seventh Wife, IMO, can be seen either way. Wallace himself says he tried to be objective but his subject matter was Ann Eliza Webb who was very anti-mormon and anti-polygamy. She lectured for years against the LDS church and polygamy.

M.

I most often found that antimormons rarely make a good case and are poor salesmen and my personal issues within the church don´t align. Most of all, the opposition is usually comprising of people who got slighted, or found it not in their heart to do some soul searching and once in a blue moon you find people who have been really hurt but they are rare because some of those people either lack conviction or got in touch with "educated" sources that are atheist anyway and then they find something exciting as a pretext to rebel against something that is more personal related than faith related. 

yeah I simply hope they don´t have to make a living in retail or used car sales. Sale is not their thing

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Hemisphere said:

I most often found that antimormons rarely make a good case and are poor salesmen and my personal issues within the church don´t align. Most of all, the opposition is usually comprising of people who got slighted, or found it not in their heart to do some soul searching and once in a blue moon you find people who have been really hurt but they are rare because some of those people either lack conviction or got in touch with "educated" sources that are atheist anyway and then they find something exciting as a pretext to rebel against something that is more personal related than faith related. 

yeah I simply hope they don´t have to make a living in retail or used car sales. Sale is not their thing

I know what you mean, even though I do know of a few members who have struggled mightily with their decision. These are lifelong LDS who know that'll hurt their families if they leave the church. I can sympathize with them to a degree. After all, I left the church I grew up with.  I think being in the same church as your parents just because they were is strange. You should figure out for yourself if the church is true or not. 

[Hemisphere]

Well even though I got flakked for it in another topic there is places where people are hurt on such a level that one can´t blame them for leaving and be a lifelong enemy of the church. I know some people don´t like to hear it but sometimes we fail to make people at home. However also I think the Lord want us to be happy and if leaving a toxic environment is ultimately better for your life and health then I think I would add a helping hand to it than rather drag them back into perpetual unhappiness

[Maureen]

16 minutes ago, Hemisphere said:

I most often found that antimormons rarely make a good case....

Hemisphere, can you give an example of something in written form (literature) that you feel did not make "a good case"? And please don't add a link, even if you're just trying to be funny.

M.

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Hemisphere said:

I know some people don´t like to hear it but sometimes we fail to make people at home. 

10,000% correct. Absolutely true. Yes, yes, yes. But it's usually a ward filled with old people who are retired, very set in their ways and have been there for 40 years. They aren't bad people, just unwelcoming and suspicious of outsiders. 

Edited August 7, 2016 by MormonGator

[Hemisphere]

@Maureen I can´t to be honest, because the not so good cases were conveyed by personal interaction and correspondence. I just simply think that these people have a desperate need for something that they think will fill their void in a quest / crusade against the LDS church. I still see them as human beings though. They just failed to convince me to join them and it is more due to the fact that I firmly hold on to the opinion that i have a covenant with the Lord and not with the people.,

Edited August 7, 2016 by Hemisphere

[Hemisphere]

10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

10,000% correct. Absolutely true. Yes, yes, yes. But it's usually a ward filled with old people who are retired, very set in their ways and have been there for 40 years. They aren't bad people, just unwelcoming and suspicious of outsiders. 

it also holds true with multigenerational families in the church that hold consideral influence. Especially the ones that think of themselves as "church nobility" and consider the church their personal social sandbox 

Edited August 7, 2016 by Hemisphere