John 17:5 and Moses 4:1-2


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(New Testament | John 17:5)

5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:1)

1  AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:2)

2  But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

 

1.       John 17:5 seems to record Christ asking His Father to give Him glory, presumably for the great work He has done and is about to do. Moses 4:1 seems to record Lucifer asking his Father to give him glory for the work he would like to do.  What do you see as some of the differences and similarities between these two situations?

Moses 4:2 seems to record that Christ offered all the glory to the Father, whereas John 17:5 seems to record that Christ asked for some of the glory. Does the apparent difference between these two verses  suggest that Jesus might have changed His mind about whether He should have any of the glory?

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The first difference I noticed was that Christ seems to be asking for glory that was His already. Satan wants to take the Father's glory.

48 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

(New Testament | John 17:5)

5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:1)

1  AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

 

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22 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Moses 4:2 seems to record that Christ offered all the glory to the Father, whereas John 17:5 seems to record that Christ asked for some of the glory. Does the apparent difference between these two verses  suggest that Jesus might have changed His mind about whether He should have any of the glory?

I don't think he changed his mind.  Rather, he acknowledges in Moses 4:2 (pre-mortal existence) that all glory that he has is the Father's.  And so on John 17:5 (mortal existence) he pleas with the Father that he may, in his mortality, still qualify for the glory which was his in pre-mortality for that which glorifies the Son glorifies the Father also.

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22 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I don't think he changed his mind.  Rather, he acknowledges in Moses 4:2 (pre-mortal existence) that all glory that he has is the Father's.  And so on John 17:5 (mortal existence) he pleas with the Father that he may, in his mortality, still qualify for the glory which was his in pre-mortality for that which glorifies the Son glorifies the Father also.

 

I agree – and if I could add something it would be that the “glory” of Christ is the beneficial because it concerns the benefit through the immortality and eternal life of man – as stated in the Book of Moses.  Thus I conclude that it is good to seek glory that is the result of other’s benefit – but it is not good to seek glory at the “expense” of others.

The Traveler

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5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Consider that the answer is already in the verse cited above.  Jesus asked the Father to glorify him by restoring to him the glory that he had departed from--the glory he had from the Father's presence before he became mortal.  Jesus lived like the rest of us.  The weight of mortality was upon him.  He lived perfectly, but he was subject to all that we are subject to: fatigue, illness, stress, sadness, loneliness, and ultimately death.  He had overcome the veil and remembered being with the Father.  I'm sure that is something he pined for, to return to that state of glory and shed the burden of mortality.  

This utterance is Jesus longing to be with his Father again, in his presence.  

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IMHO, John 17:5 is the Savior's request to be deemed worthy for re-admittance into His Father's presence, after completing the Atonement....or perhaps the Savior is asking for all of the knowledge (knowledge is glory) that Jehovah had with the Father during the PGP-referenced event.  That knowledge may have helped the Savior understand why infinite suffering was required....or that knowledge may further demonstrate that the Savior, like us, learned precept on precept, and progressed from one lesson to the next harder lesson; comprehended one gospel principle and then the next more advanced concept.  Due to the pain of the Atonement, the Savior may have been asking to be re-admitted back to Father's presence....but since He knew He was going to be crucified, this probably isnt the case.

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On 7/6/2016 at 6:42 PM, askandanswer said:

 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

There is a difference between having glory of oneself and sharing in that glory which flows eternally from the Father.

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