2nd Amendment Rights Don't Apply to All???

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I support the 2nd Amendment---so I'm wondering where are the other 2nd Amendment supporters now?  Why aren't they (you) speaking up for these men? 

Alton Sterling   http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/06/body-cameras-fell-off-when-cops-tussled-with-alton-sterling-lawmaker-says.html

Philando Castile http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/32389224/aftermath-of-fatal-police-shooting-in-mn-caught-on-facebook-live

This is an old story but it applies here: John Crawford

http://www.whio.com/videos/news/surveillance-video-john-crawford-iii-at-walmart/vCtDmK/

I know this is a futile request, but I'll ask it anyway....can we keep this conversation to the 2nd Amendment?  (not about police brutality...real or imagined) One of the reasons for the 2nd Amendment is to protect us from an unjust government.  I want to talk about THAT.  Alton Sterling was in Louisiana, an open carry state.  Philander had a concealed carry permit, and according to his girlfriend he told the police he had a weapon, and a permit.  John Crawford was walking through Walmart and picked up a pellet gun from the shelf.  All these men are now dead.

As someone who supports the 2nd Amendment who does this not bother you?  Or does it?  
 

[anatess2]

Alton Sterling:

Yes, Louisiana is an open-carry State.  But, open-carry doesn't mean that you can pull out your gun and point it at somebody without just cause.  It also doesn't mean you can carry a gun you acquired illegally.

This is the problem with these cases.  You have a loooooooonnnggggggg list of criminal judgments against you including possession of an illegally acquired firearm and a cop answering a call about you pointing a gun at someone is supposed to make them feel like they're just walking through the park.

I tell my kids all the time... Do Not Resist Arrest.  Even if you're completely as innocent and pure as snow getting arrested by a completely moronic cop... you can argue your case later, you can't argue your case when you're dead.  And yes, you better be completely innocent otherwise getting arrested is the least of your worries.

Edited July 7, 2016 by anatess2

[LeSellers]

The police, the military, all politicians, judges, and bureaucrats either take or should take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the united States (and of their state, where applicable). To disregard the right and responsibility recognized by the II is an affront to the very concept of the united Sates of America. Those who break their aoths should be removed on the spot and tried for treason and executed on conviction.

But I don't want to appear adamant on the matter.

Lehi

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yes, Louisiana is an open-carry State.  But, open-carry doesn't mean that you can pull out your gun and point it at somebody without just cause.  It also doesn't mean you can carry a gun you acquired illegally.

The problem with this is that he wasn't waiving the gun at anyone...he was on the ground on his stomach.  I can't bring myself to watch the video of his death, but those who have say one arm was pinned beneath him, and the police were holding his other wrist.  I haven't read anything that says he acquired this gun...legally or not, so we don't know about that. 

About the resisting...well just look at the other two stories.  According to what Philandro's girlfriend said, he did exactly what the police told him to do.  The officer said, "put your hands in the air"  (strange request since they were pulled over for a broken tail light) he put his hands in the air as he was asked.  The officer said, "give me your license" so he reached for his wallet.  He also informed the officer (as he is legally bound to do, I believe, that he had a weapon)...that's when he was shot.

John Crawford never had a chance to resist. He was walking through Walmart, talking on his cell phone (I have seen that video) and the police arrived (based on a false report) and shot him immediately.  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

11 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

The police, the military, all politicians, judges, and bureaucrats either take or should take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the united States (and of their state, where applicable). To disregard the right and responsibility recognized by the II is an affront to the very concept of the united Sates of America. Those who break their aoths should be removed on the spot and tried for treason and executed on conviction.

But I don't want to appear adamant on the matter.

Lehi

So then you agree with me?  Philandro should not have been shot for following the law and letting the officer know he had a gun (and a permit to carry it)?  

[anatess2]

Philando Castille:

Traffic stop.  I have no idea what the cop was thinking in this case.  Overly nervous getting a Napoleonic moment is my first guess.  We'll have to wait for the facts of the case to come out.  I don't know what this has to do with the 2nd amendment, though.  I don't see that he got shot because he owns a firearm.  I can see the nervous cop assuming he was reaching for his firearm.  And I'm not sure about Minnesota, but in my State, you can't pull a firearm on a cop on duty.

[anatess2]

John Crawford:

Cop was called in on a report that a guy was waving a real rifle around and threatening people.  Didn't know it was a BB.  Cop goes in, doesn't recognize it as a BB either, guy supposedly didn't follow police instructions so he got shot.  Police did not get charged, so it stands to reason that the police did issue instructions that were not followed.  Same 2nd amendment case as Sterling.  You have a right to own a firearm.  You can't just brandish it about without just cause.

[anatess2]

In Florida:

You have a right to conceal carry.  It has to be concealed.  If it isn't concealed, you have to have a really good reason why you exposed it.  You point it somebody, you have to prove your life was in imminent danger.  So, say, you got into a simple road rage incident, so you take your gun out of your purse and show it at the other guy to shut him up... bad idea.

Edited July 7, 2016 by anatess2

[anatess2]

27 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

The problem with this is that he wasn't waiving the gun at anyone...he was on the ground on his stomach.  I can't bring myself to watch the video of his death, but those who have say one arm was pinned beneath him, and the police were holding his other wrist.  I haven't read anything that says he acquired this gun...legally or not, so we don't know about that. 

About the resisting...well just look at the other two stories.  According to what Philandro's girlfriend said, he did exactly what the police told him to do.  The officer said, "put your hands in the air"  (strange request since they were pulled over for a broken tail light) he put his hands in the air as he was asked.  The officer said, "give me your license" so he reached for his wallet.  He also informed the officer (as he is legally bound to do, I believe, that he had a weapon)...that's when he was shot.

John Crawford never had a chance to resist. He was walking through Walmart, talking on his cell phone (I have seen that video) and the police arrived (based on a false report) and shot him immediately.  

This is the problem with these videos... you make a judgment from a video with a predetermined narrative.  You want to champion Sterling, you view the video as such.  There's no corresponding testimonies/official witnesses under oath/no alternate perspectives.  That's why you take these things to court and you are innocent until proven guilty.

Now, here is what we DO know.  The cop was called because Sterling allegedly pointed the gun to threaten somebody.  The cops then know they are facing an armed man.  We do not see anything before the arrest and we don't see the actual shooting (all we hear is the audio).  Therefore, we only have the accounts that he was resisting arrest, hence he got tazed.  He didn't go down with the tazer.  Now note, that this same guy was arrested 3 weeks ago for dealing ecstasy.  Ecstasy can make you oblivious to pain - such as tazing - and as a big guy, the regular tazer charge is probably not enough to lock his motor skills.  So then we move to the video where the cops have become aggressive in their take down... face down on the ground, one hand with the cop, the other not visible in the footage.  The footage goes dark but you hear the cops saying, "He has a gun!", and then "Don't reach for it, don't you dare reach for it..." and then the shots.  Which probably meant... he moved such as to make the cops believe he was reaching for it...

But, that's my own perspective as I have a predisposed respect for American cops.  This would be different if I was looking at what we know of the incident if it occurred in the Philippines... I don't trust cops there.

But, in any case, that's why you go to court.  You presume innocence until the court declares otherwise because outside of court, people have very varied perspectives... like our different perspectives.

2nd amendment still applied - he has the right to own a firearm.  He has no right to point it at somebody without just cause (the alleged reason the cops got called) and he has no right to draw it against a cop (an assumption of mine from what I understand of the incident).

Edited July 7, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

In Florida:

You have a right to conceal carry.  It has to be concealed.  If it isn't concealed, you have to have a really good reason why you exposed it.  You point it somebody, you have to prove your life was in imminent danger.  So, say, you got into a simple road rage incident, so you take your gun out of your purse and show it at the other guy to shut him up... bad idea.

I agree. If you can't control your temper or emotions you are the LAST person who should carry a gun. You could get yourself killed or worse-you could kill someone else. It might seem like a good idea to prove that you are Mr/Mrs Tough Guy and wave gun around, but it's a real bad idea unless you are in truly mortal danger.  

[Guest MormonGator]

The other blunt truth is if you are "the type" that waves a gun around and a cop sees you doing so, he or she (with justification, frankly) probably isn't gong to say "You be nice or I'll tell your mommy! No cookies for you! " They are probably going to shoot you so you don't kill innocent people.

Now that doesn't justify what happened recently, but it's a good thing to remember. 

Edited July 7, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

The other blunt truth is if you are "the type" that waves a gun around and a cop sees you doing so, he or she (with justification, frankly) probably isn't gong to say "You be nice or I'll tell your mommy! No cookies for you! " They are probably going to shoot you so you don't kill innocent people.

Now that doesn't justify what happened recently, but it's a good thing to remember. 

I agree, But none of the men I mentioned were doing that.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I agree, But none of the men I mentioned were doing that.

Absolutely true.  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@anatess2 judgment from a predetermined narrative happens on both sides of any issue. 

You keep talking about Alton's case but ignoring the other two. In John Crawford's case, the police were responding to a call that a black man was waving a gun around also. That call was later proved to be false, but John is still dead.  We don't know if Alton was waving his gun around or not.

Tamir Rice...similar story. A 12 yr old kid...and some one calls the police and says he's waving it around and now he's dead.  Again we don't know if he was waving it around or not.

Then there's Philandro...simply doing what the police told him to do...following the law precisely. And he is dead. 

 

[anatess2]

26 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@anatess2 judgment from a predetermined narrative happens on both sides of any issue. 

You keep talking about Alton's case but ignoring the other two. In John Crawford's case, the police were responding to a call that a black man was waving a gun around also. That call was later proved to be false, but John is still dead.  We don't know if Alton was waving his gun around or not.

Tamir Rice...similar story. A 12 yr old kid...and some one calls the police and says he's waving it around and now he's dead.  Again we don't know if he was waving it around or not.

Then there's Philandro...simply doing what the police told him to do...following the law precisely. And he is dead. 

 

I just told you that... the narrative happens on both sides and I admitted my bias.  That's why we don't do go justice-warrior until the case had had its day in court.

I didn't ignore Crawford's case.  I gave you a synopsis of my views on the matter.  The black man WAS waving a gun... a BB GUN.  But, as the case has been resolved on this one and the cops exonerated, this shows that the guy WAS waving the BB gun around and the BB Gun had a reasonable resemblance to a real gun which caused the cops to fire upon the guy when he didn't follow instructions (resisted arrest).  Same 2nd amendment considerations as Sterling.

Philandro's case is still under investigation.  We don't know the full story yet.  Your assumption is that he was following the law precisely - I hold the same assumption.  My assumption is that the cop was a nervous nilly and pulled the trigger without sufficient provocation.  Still the same 2nd amendment considerations - you can own a gun, carry a gun, etc... you can't draw it on on-duty police making a routine traffic stop.  But, if we're right on our assumptions after the case completes its day in court, then the cop will face charges.

Tamir Rice - same thing as Crawford.  BB gun.  Those guns look very much like the real thing unless you're close enough to detect the plastic casing.  He pulled the BB gun out of his waistband when the police arrived, the police didn't hesitate to shoot the kid before asking questions.  This case is done - the 2 cops were exonerated, so same as Crawford, there was sufficient evidence that the kid was reported to have been threatening people with it, the BB gun looked like a real gun and that the kid pulled it out of his waistband as the cops arrived.  Same 2nd amendment consideration - you can own a gun, you can't draw it against police without just cause.

Now, as far as BB versus Real Gun... kids need to realize cops don't play.  My cousin shot a BB into a postal truck... Federal Offense.  He was 8 years old.  It's a good thing his parents are upstanding citizens otherwise, it could have ended up badly with my cousin in juvie.

Edited July 7, 2016 by anatess2

[BeccaKirstyn]

2nd amendment rights are not the issue here. Gun safety and knowledge of how to handle a weapon around police officers is the issue. You don't EVER reach for your real of fake gun when apprehended by police. You tell them where the weapon is, keep your hands on your head, and let them confiscate the weapon. 

[anatess2]

37 minutes ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

2nd amendment rights are not the issue here. Gun safety and knowledge of how to handle a weapon around police officers is the issue. You don't EVER reach for your real of fake gun when apprehended by police. You tell them where the weapon is, keep your hands on your head, and let them confiscate the weapon. 

In the case of Castille, the wife claimed that he was not reaching for his weapon, he was reaching for his driver's license.

[Backroads]

I confess, I am having a lot, and I mean a heck of a lot, of trouble being patient and fair and waiting for full information in the Castile case and I may have added a few more to my count of removed comments on KSL. To just get it out there, in my head I'm about ready to give that officer the death penalty.

But I'm also confused at how these are certain affronts to the 2nd ammendment. I'm not a gun fan by nature (though I have no intellectual or moral issue with them and probably just need to get more comfortable with them as Husband owns a couple). By what we know so far of Castile, he was at no-fault. The others, so far it sounds like they weren't being responsible with their guns (not to nay-say their deaths in any way).

I do think that with the 2nd ammendment comes a natural responsibility to be, well, responsible and prudent with guns.

[yjacket]

It never got any media attention but add Chase Sherman to your list.  The problem with him is that he was white.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/21/us/chase-sherman-video-georgia.html

[LeSellers]

4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

4 hours ago, LeSellers said:

The police, the military, all politicians, judges, and bureaucrats either take or should take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the united States (and of their state, where applicable). To disregard the right and responsibility recognized by the II is an affront to the very concept of the united Sates of America. Those who break their oaths should be removed on the spot and tried for treason and executed on conviction.

So then you agree with me?  Philandro should not have been shot for following the law and letting the officer know he had a gun (and a permit to carry it)?  

I don't know the details of the incident, so I can neither agree nor disagree in this specific case.

What I said stands as is: if those who have sworn an oath to defend the right of the people to keep and bear arms break that oath, they should be executed for treason, if found guilty.

Breaking the law is not a protected right merely because a firearm is involved, unless the law is, itself, void because unconstitutional.

Lehi

Edited July 8, 2016 by LeSellers

[David13]

None of those cases have anything to do with the second amendment.

They have to do with issues with the police or those confronting or interfacing with the police.

dc

[mirkwood]

https://www.calibrepress.com/2016/07/when-facts-dont-matter/

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

16 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I just told you that... the narrative happens on both sides and I admitted my bias.  That's why we don't do go justice-warrior until the case had had its day in court.

Sorry, I didn't see your other responses until now...an issue I have with the new board...I used to be able to click a button and go to the first "new" post.  I keep forgetting that I can't do that any more.

About the rest, I disagree.  John Crawford didn't deserve to be shot just because he picked up a gun that was for sale in Walmart.  What the court decided means very little to me.  Consider for example that Stanford rape case...guilty, and the judge gave him 6 months because the judge didn't want the RAPIST to be severely impacted.  No concern for the victim.  And that is just one of many ridiculous court out comes.  It's pretty hard to have any faith in the justice system these days. 

15 hours ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

2nd amendment rights are not the issue here. Gun safety and knowledge of how to handle a weapon around police officers is the issue. You don't EVER reach for your real of fake gun when apprehended by police. You tell them where the weapon is, keep your hands on your head, and let them confiscate the weapon. 

I understand what you are saying, but my point is why isn't the NRA or other die-hard gun rights speaking up for Philandro?  I put his hands in the air, when the officer asked him too, but then the officer asked him to get his wallet.  Ignoring a police officer's request will get you tazed, I've seen it in other videos . . .  Maybe Philandro's response was not 100% perfect...I don't know about you, but I'm pretty nervous when I get pulled over by a police officer, I make mistakes too.  But our mistakes don't leave people dead.

13 hours ago, yjacket said:

It never got any media attention but add Chase Sherman to your list.  The problem with him is that he was white.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/21/us/chase-sherman-video-georgia.html

Tragic story, but not what I want to discuss here.  You are welcome to go that direction, but I'm not going to join you. 

7 hours ago, David13 said:

None of those cases have anything to do with the second amendment.

They have to do with issues with the police or those confronting or interfacing with the police.

dc

Philando had that gun legally, and he followed protocol by telling the officer he had a weapon.  He shouldn't have died for that.  That is my point.   

6 hours ago, mirkwood said:

https://www.calibrepress.com/2016/07/when-facts-dont-matter/

Mirkwood, this is outside of the scope of what I want to discuss here, like I told Yjacket, you are free to go there, I'm just not coming along.  I often find these discussions difficult because they go off in so many different directions.  So this time I'm staying focused on one point...everyone else is free to do what they choose of course.  My question is why 2nd Amendment people are not up in arms about a fellow concealed weapon permit holder being killed because he had a weapon.  I believe your point in sharing this link is that you disagree that that is why these men died.  I disagree, but thanks for helping me better understand where you are coming from.  

Edited July 8, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

For those who say this isn't a Second Amendment issue, consider this if you will.  This article is a couple years old, but it still applies.  

 

Quote

 

Look online and you’ll find pictures of white people proudly carrying guns into churches, bars, and grocery stores thanks to the “open carry” laws passed in nearly every state recently. Black people don’t have that right.

When a white teenager named Steve Lohner was stopped by the police last month and refused to show his ID after carrying a loaded shotgun on the streets of Aurora, Colorado (the same city where a mass murderer killed 12 people and injured 70 others in a packed movie theater in July 2012), the teen walked away with nothing but a citation.

But when a 22-year-old black kid named John Crawford picked up a mere BB gun in a Walmart store in Dayton, Ohio last week, customers called the police, who then shot and killed him.

Here lies a racial disparity that’s difficult for honest people to ignore. How can black people openly carry a real gun when we can’t even pick up a BB gun in a store without arousing suspicion? The answer in America is that the Second Amendment doesn’t really apply to black people. 

Consider this. In the hours since the protests began in Ferguson, Missouri, gun sales spiked in the St. Louis area. It seems some whites are scared to death of violent black people, even though the only person who’s been killed in the past week of turmoil in St. Louis was 18-year-old Michael Brown. 

Imagine what might happen if black people started buying up scores of weapons at gun stores and posting pictures of ourselves carrying them on the streets to protect ourselves? We don’t have to wonder. When the Black Panthers did this in the 1960s, California’s Republican Governor Ronald Reagan, the patron saint of white conservatives, signed a law called the Mulford Act which prohibited the carrying of firearms on your person, in a vehicle, or in any public place or street.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/keith-boykin/does-the-second-amendment_b_5676447.html

 

 

Edited July 8, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[Backroads]

I guess I'm having trouble separating properly the racism/bias issue from the 2nd ammendment issue. I do believe the 2nd ammendment right ought to come first, but are officers behaving wrongly because of opposition to the ammendment?