2nd Amendment Rights Don't Apply to All???


Guest LiterateParakeet
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9 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 

Mirkwood, this is outside of the scope of what I want to discuss here, like I told Yjacket, you are free to go there, I'm just not coming along.  I often find these discussions difficult because they go off in so many different directions.  So this time I'm staying focused on one point...everyone else is free to do what they choose of course.  My question is why 2nd Amendment people are not up in arms about a fellow concealed weapon permit holder being killed because he had a weapon.  I believe your point in sharing this link is that you disagree that that is why these men died.  I disagree, but thanks for helping me better understand where you are coming from.  

No, actually I was helping you see your own bias.  I guess I failed.

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22 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I support the 2nd Amendment---so I'm wondering where are the other 2nd Amendment supporters now?  Why aren't they (you) speaking up for these men? 

Alton Sterling   http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/06/body-cameras-fell-off-when-cops-tussled-with-alton-sterling-lawmaker-says.html

Philando Castile http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/32389224/aftermath-of-fatal-police-shooting-in-mn-caught-on-facebook-live

This is an old story but it applies here: John Crawford

http://www.whio.com/videos/news/surveillance-video-john-crawford-iii-at-walmart/vCtDmK/

I know this is a futile request, but I'll ask it anyway....can we keep this conversation to the 2nd Amendment?  (not about police brutality...real or imagined) One of the reasons for the 2nd Amendment is to protect us from an unjust government.  I want to talk about THAT.  Alton Sterling was in Louisiana, an open carry state.  Philander had a concealed carry permit, and according to his girlfriend he told the police he had a weapon, and a permit.  John Crawford was walking through Walmart and picked up a pellet gun from the shelf.  All these men are now dead.

As someone who supports the 2nd Amendment who does this not bother you?  Or does it?  
 

More accurately for when a government decides to wage war against it's own citizens, as well as for defense any foreign invasion.... There are many other laws to help reign in injustice in the gov.

these incidents are not enough to go to arms for... it is only when there is absolutely no other recourse to remain free- and even in situations where that would have been justified in the past the saints chose to leave or move rather than pursue force of arms.



Also. the second amendment has been so borked by both proponents for and against it as to render it almost meaningless in the view of defense of the above- and is by now more a golden calf than anything else since the end of WWII. However, It still has some value for defense against small crime.

open carry is just begging for shooting incidents to occur due to misunderstanding. An open carry law might work all right in a small town where about everyone knows each other.... but once you get to the big cities and massive populations, it's not a good idea.


police officers are authorized to defend themselves and to neutralize active threats to the community(depending on the situation). You aren't.

If you kill a police officer in self defense you are going to need an extremely tight case against that officer, supposing you get the drop on the officer who is likely better armed and better trained than you are which means more than likely it will be you that ends up 6 feet under should you choose to resist and/or start an altercation. But if you are successful you will have to have both a tight case against the officer, as well as a thoroughly correct assessment of the situation, the officers intent, character and etc, to a very unlikely degree. If it's outside your home or while the officer is on duty the odds are greatly further against you. Taking this route is most likely to get you killed and if you survive a good deal of time behind bars.

99.99% of the time it's better to get cuffed, shut up, get taken to the detention and get your lawyer.

 

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Guest Godless
2 hours ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

I've seen way too many people reach out to support the law enforcement community today and too many retort back that they're not supporting the men who died this week. Where was that ever stated? This just starts contentious conversations which leads to nothing. 

We all have a common goal (at least I know for sure amongst our LDS communities): to LOVE one another. 

It seems to me that there's a lot of frustration stemming from the overwhelming (and 100% justified) outrage over the events in Dallas vs. the overall lackluster public reaction to the killings of Sterling and Castile. Personally, all of it is an outrage to me. I'm angry that two innocent black men got killed for no reason by criminals with badges. I'm angry that five good cops were killed by a deranged criminal. I'm angry that white Americans are using the tragedy in Dallas to justify the downplaying of institutional racism. I'm angry that black Americans are using the deaths of Sterling and Castile (and Michael Brown and Freddie Gray) to justify violence against good cops. If we as Americans can't overcome our prejudices and see both sides of this issue through the lenses of empathy and compassion, then the race war in this country will get worse before it gets better.

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Guest MormonGator
25 minutes ago, Godless said:

I . If we as Americans can't overcome our prejudices and see both sides of this issue through the lenses of empathy and compassion, then the race war in this country will get worse before it gets better.

If we want the country to get better, it's time to start asking politically incorrect questions. Questions that won't be asked because white people don't want to be called racist and black people don't want to be called "Uncle Tom". 

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15 hours ago, mirkwood said:

I took a look at this article and while it is making an effort to point out bias, it's a biased article in and of itself, just the other way.  (It's impossible to avoid bias, let's just be honest about it.)

It did make some points that I'd like to comment on.

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1. Alton Sterling was the father of five children.

She calls the officer a “murderer” and describes Sterling as a “son, a brother and a father of five adorable children.”

I don’t doubt that, but to describe the officer, who also has a family, people he loves, and who love him and didn’t ask to be in that position as a “murderer” is vile in and of itself.

If the officer took this man's life unjustly, calling him "murderer" isn't vile, it's the truth.  It makes no difference whom he loves or who loves him.  (This is an example of the article's own bias.  The officer's personal life is completely irrelevant, but is being mentioned here to generate sympathy from the reader.) The simple truth is that until the facts come out, neither side has any right at all to make claims like these.

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2. Alton Sterling lived in a shelter home and he loved to cook.

The officer, who’s entire life will change because of this incident, has a home and his own interests, came close to dying and not for any other reason than he decided to put on a uniform and do the duty he was sworn to do—protect the public.

Did he come close to dying?  How do we know that?  Have these facts come out already?  Also, the author is literally telling the audience that we should feel more compassion for the officer who pulled the trigger than for the dead man.  (This is what bias looks like, brothers and sisters.  Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.)

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3. Alton Sterling sold CDs outside of the same store for years.

He may have, but on this particular day it’s alleged that he threatened someone—scared them enough to call the police. Reports say he made the threat with a gun that was on his person.

People call the police for all sorts of reasons, justified or not.  His comments here seem to suggest that the accusation alone justifies Sterling's killing.

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4. Alton Sterling didn’t deserve to die.

Workneh admits: “While exact facts about the case are still being clarified, one thing is immediately clear: Sterling didn’t deserve this fate.”

How is that “immediately clear”? I’m not arguing the alternative, I’m just saying it’s about as clear as mud at this point. Bottom line: He refused to obey orders and fought with police. His noncompliance and threatening behavior created this situation.

Another point: To those who say, “You should stand for your rights!” I don’t disagree. Just do it in a way and at a time that doesn’t put you, the police, and the public at risk.

I find it utterly bizarre that he's questioning someone's assertion that Sterling didn't deserve to die on the grounds that the facts aren't clear, but seems perfectly comfortable citing a few facts of his own.  Again, his own bias is pretty severe.

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5. Alton Sterling “would have never fought the police.”

We hear this from family members all the time. But on this point there is clarity: He did fight with the police after refusing orders. That’s what the video shows. At what point do the officers act? How many times should they allow reasonable orders be ignored? At what point does Sterling become an immediate threat to public safety and bystanders, like those filming the incident?

Good questions that should be discussed.  So far, this is the only reasonable point made in the article.

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6. Alton Sterling was the 558th person to be shot and killed by a police officer this year.

This is a bald lie.

558 people have not been shot and killed by police in 2016. She cites “The Counted,” which is a project by The Guardian that tracks police killings in America. Their list includes anyone who dies after contact with the police, including in custody deaths, being struck by cars in accidents, after Tasers have been deployed, etc. But she says “shot and killed.” Not true.

This strikes me as a semantic argument, and correctly calls out the bias from the words used, but again I'd rather have had it come from a source a bit closer to neutrality.

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7. Alton Sterling’s death was caught on camera by a witness who captured what police body cameras likely didn’t.

We now have two videos and her depiction of Sterling being “slammed” to the ground is meant to indict. Here’s something we talk about in most of our seminars: The public hasn’t a clue what real use of force or violence is. We do know this: It ain’t pretty and it’s nothing like what’s seen in movies or on TV shows. It’s ugly. Always has been and will be for the foreseeable future.

I'm not sure what his response here has to do with officer body cameras.  Is he saying the second video was from an officer's body cam?  Some clarity would have been helpful here.

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8. Alton Sterling allegedly carried a gun for protection.

How do we know that? He was a felon as well as a registered sex offender with a history of domestic violence. Bottom line: If he in fact was carrying a gun, he was breaking Louisiana law given his criminal history.

If he had a felony record and a history of domestic violence then yes, he was breaking the law by even having a gun. 

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9. Protesters will not ignore the horrific mistreatment of another black life.

Unfortunately they will ignore the totality of the situation and won’t wait for the facts to come out. And they will focus on the racial component, accusing the officer of racism with no proof of any such ill-will or perspective. They will ignore all evidence that police officers are in fact, as a whole, not racist.

People on both sides will rush to judgment.  You'll have people on one side rushing to accuse the officers of racism, and you'll have guys like this rushing to defend their actions fervently, all without waiting for more information.

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10. We can’t expect Alton Sterling’s killing to lead to a conviction.

Conviction? The facts aren’t yet available, no investigation has been initiated, and no charges filed. Innocent until proven guilty? Does that exist anymore?

Does the same "innocent until proven guilty" line apply to Mr. Sterling?  This article doesn't read like it does.

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11. Alton Sterling’s history will be used in heinous attempts to vilify him and justify his death.

His history is exactly that: His. And it isn’t pretty. It shows a contempt for the legal system, women, children, and laws in general.

So basically, he just proved claim #11 to be absolutely true.

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12. Alton Sterling’s death is tragically similar to Eric Garner’s.

I think the point that she and others are trying to make is that selling CDs or loose cigarettes are small crimes. They are, in the scheme of things. But again: That’s not what this is about. This is about police officers investigating an alleged threat of violence against the public.

Again: The primary similarity is noncompliance and active resistance.

Again, he's perfectly comfortable asserting facts even though he earlier admitted that "I’m just saying it’s about as clear as mud at this point."

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13. Alton Sterling was a black man in America.

Two things. When you factor in the reality of violent crime, police do not shoot black people disproportionately, which has been documented countless times.

This is one of those times when people interpret statistical data differently and I'm not interested in commenting on it.

So basically he says at the beginning of the article that he generally doesn't comment on these things until the facts come out but then goes on to say he's making an exception this time.  Why?  Probably because he was emotionally riled up and responded.  This article is just garbage if he thinks he's somehow being more objective than the people he's criticizing.

Personally, I won't take a side on this particular incident because I don't know enough about it.  I'm not willing to just assume the cops were racists and I'm not willing to just assume they were knights in shining armor.   The truth is somewhere in between anyway.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm no apologist for HuffPo.  I think it's garbage filled with mostly propaganda.  The reason I'm attacking this article is because it isn't any better than the HuffPo article it attacks, and I feel like we, as Conservatives, have to do better if we're going to cast aspersions on openly biased journalism and try to grab the moral highground.

Edited by unixknight
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On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 1:54 PM, anatess2 said:

In Florida:

You have a right to conceal carry.  It has to be concealed.  If it isn't concealed, you have to have a really good reason why you exposed it.  You point it somebody, you have to prove your life was in imminent danger.  So, say, you got into a simple road rage incident, so you take your gun out of your purse and show it at the other guy to shut him up... bad idea.

It is my understanding that you (as a citizen) have to right to carry - basically anytime anyplace with the exception that private property owners can require that you surrender your arms while on their property.  This right can be overridden with the declaration of martial law that would require the surrender of arms in specific designated public areas (not individual private homes).  It is also my understanding that conceal carry require a permit issued by the state in which a person carries concealed.  Openly carrying and displaying a firearm does not require a permit and is legal.

I am not sure if the right to have arms (carry) is extended to aliens (non-citizens) and I am quite certain that it is not a right of illegal aliens. The right and consequences of the law have different implications for citizens and non-citizens but capital crimes do apply to foreigners without diplomatic immunity.

But I do believe in gun control laws.  For example I believe that to knowingly purchase or acquire a firearm illegally ought to be a capital offense.  I also believe that to knowingly provide a firearm illegally should as well be a capital offence.   In addition I believe that to commit a felony crime while in possession of a firearm should be capital offense.  I think we need to agree to gun control laws and change the naritive towards laws that are effective and will actually make a difference.

Obviously we need tougher gun control laws – I am very suspicious of those in government that want to restrict or prevent legal citizens from exercising their constitutional rights and why they are not willing to increase the punishments for those that acquire firearms and use them illegally.   Why they think to solve the problem by only restricting and prevention sales – when all the data we have in history and around the world indicate that those with intent to break the law – do so in one way or another. 

 

The Traveler

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5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is my understanding that you (as a citizen) have to right to carry - basically anytime anyplace with the exception that private property owners can require that you surrender your arms while on their property.  This right can be overridden with the declaration of martial law that would require the surrender of arms in specific designated public areas (not individual private homes).  It is also my understanding that conceal carry require a permit issued by the state in which a person carries concealed.  Openly carrying and displaying a firearm does not require a permit and is legal.

I am not sure if the right to have arms (carry) is extended to aliens (non-citizens) and I am quite certain that it is not a right of illegal aliens. The right and consequences of the law have different implications for citizens and non-citizens but capital crimes do apply to foreigners without diplomatic immunity.

But I do believe in gun control laws.  For example I believe that to knowingly purchase or acquire a firearm illegally ought to be a capital offense.  I also believe that to knowingly provide a firearm illegally should as well be a capital offence.   In addition I believe that to commit a felony crime while in possession of a firearm should be capital offense.  I think we need to agree to gun control laws and change the naritive towards laws that are effective and will actually make a difference.

Obviously we need tougher gun control laws – I am very suspicious of those in government that want to restrict or prevent legal citizens from exercising their constitutional rights and why they are not willing to increase the punishments for those that acquire firearms and use them illegally.   Why they think to solve the problem by only restricting and prevention sales – when all the data we have in history and around the world indicate that those with intent to break the law – do so in one way or another. 

 

The Traveler

Actually, declaration of Martial Law does not suspend Constitutional Rights, I don't think.  What it does suspend is the writ of habeas corpus.  The Constitution specifies that activation of the militia may be done during Martial Law.  I understood that to be - local militia comprised of armed citizens and not necessarily sworn active military.

Both open and conceal carry require a permit in most states that allow it.  The only difference is one does not allow for public exposure of the permitted firearm.

The right to purchase and own firearms is extended to Legal residents (as opposed to temporary visitors - the requirement is at least 90-days of permanent residency status).  The gun laws in the non-citizen's state of residency applies.

 

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11 hours ago, Backroads said:

I truly believe the vast majority of BLM is as horrified by Dallas as anyone.

That doesn't square with the BLM chant, "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon!"

Were that the only example of the BLM hatred of the police, we might let it slide, but it is not an anomaly, it's the standard.

Lehi

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3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

declaration of Martial Law … does suspend is the writ of habeas corpus.

Habeus corpus is a constitutional right. Article I, Section 9, Clause 2:

Quote

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

The Document does allow its suspension under martial law, but of all of our rights delineated in the Constitution, this is the only one that can be suspended. The others, the right to bear arms, the right to free speech, the right to assemble, the right to trial, and so on, do not have such an escape clause, and are, in fact, absolute.

Lehi

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Sorry guys, I'm struggling to keep up here.  Time constraints won't allow me to respond to everyone.  What I can do is try to be a little more clear about what my concern and question is. First....

Quote

 

Castile was reportedly a licensed gun owner. His disclosure to the officer that he had a gun in the car led the officer to shoot him, according to Castile’s girlfriend who made a Facebook Live video shortly after the shooting.

It’s exactly the sort of case that you might imagine would outrage the NRA, an organization dedicated to protecting the Second Amendment right to bear arms. But despite rushing to mourn the death of police in Dallas, the NRA was silent in the days after Castile’s death.

Plenty of people have noticed this, and taken to social media to ask the NRA pointed questions. Some of its members were disappointed or furious, while non-members said they wouldn’t join the NRA now based on its silence. http://fusion.net/story/323189/nra-members-response-philando-castile-shooting/

 

Second....police apprehend white men with guns, all the time, without killing them.  Think about Philando Castile, John Crawford, Tamir Rice....then compare their situations to these stories....credit to Petula Dvorak who put together this list on Facebook.  I used his list, and words, but added links to the news stories. 

James Holmes...the man who killed people at the Batman Premeire....police arrested him after the incident at his car.  

Sean Francis Wanamaker....Last week, a guy was in an argument at the Motel 6 in South Lake Tahoe and folks there said he was waving around a gun. He booked outta there. But on a beach nearby, with no incident, the police SWAT team arrested Sean Francis Wanamaker, 32, alleging he was the guy with the gun. Oops, he's also a parolee, county records show. So having a gun in the first place is a total no-no. http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2016/07/04/south-lake-tahoe-parolee-arrested-stateline-beach/86679188/

In Laconia, New Hampshire last month, a city police officer was serving court papers to Ernest Thompson, 32. The officer said Thompson was not a good host, and threatened to sic his dogs on her. Then, according to her court affidavit, Thompson allegedly “pulled the gun from the small of his back, pointed his arm out in front of him, about shoulder height, away from my direction and shot his gun several times rapidly". The officer cleared out, but returned with backup and found Thompson riding around on his tractor. There wasn't much fuss when police arrested him, without incident. http://www.wmur.com/news/man-in-custody-after-police-response-forced-road-closure-in-gilford/39537344

in New Orleans, folks told police a guy was firing off a handgun, and they said he even pointed it through the mail slot of an apartment building. Police showed up and arrested 33-year-old Chase Hardesty, without incident. They said his gun was loaded. http://www.wwltv.com/news/crime/man-waving-gun-on-magazine-street-arrested-sunday/250462426

On Tuesday, drivers in Raleigh, North Carolina, reported that a man was standing at the road pointing a shotgun at them. When officers arrived at the scene, they said they found William Bruce Ray, 62, and he pulled out a handgun and fired at them, missing. "As a deputy, you don’t ever know what to expect when you’re approaching something like that, so your training kicks in,” said the deputy who wrestled the gun out of Ray's hand and arrested him, without injury. “And of course when the gun came up, it was automatic to him to get that gun away from him.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/william-bruce-ray-arrested_us_577efceae4b0344d514eb09e

On an evening this past May, police arrived at the Kindred Crossings West nursing home in New London, Connecticut after folks reported a drunken man waving a gun at the home. Without incident, they arrested Paul Bialowas, 66, who is from Louisiana. He had a revolver on him. And in his rental car, police found an AR-15 assault weapon, two pistols, assorted ammunition and a large capacity ammunition magazine. He made his $75,000 bail on four felony and four misdemeanor charges. http://www.wfsb.com/story/32045853/drunk-man-went-into-new-london-nursing-home-with-gun

Robert W. Sweatman, 45, was arrested in Bath Township, Ohio, last month after he allegedly brandished a weapon at another driver (he told police the guy had his brights on) on Interstate 77. When he was arrested and videotaped with a police body camera, officers found a 9 mm gun in the car center console of his white Cadillac, 11 rounds in a magazine and brass knuckles. The indictment filed in Summit County Court said he did not have a concealed carry permit. http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/oh-summit/fairlawn-man-arrested-for-pointing-gun-at-driver-on-interstate-77-in-bath-township

Jesse Deflorio was 22 when he was arrested after police said they found him hiding behind a Dumpster, shooting a BB gun at them in Concord, New Hampshire in 2014. They said he was arrested for shooting at random people with his BB gun a year earlier. Both arrests were without incident. http://patch.com/new-hampshire/concord-nh/concord-man-accused-firing-bbs-cops

Robert Dear, 58, was arrested last November, after a five-hour standoff in a Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood clinic. He had a duffle bag full of rifles and handguns. He wore a homemade bullet-proof vest reinforced with coins. Two civilians were killed, four others were shot. A police officer was killed, five other officers were shot. Dear, however, is alive and uninjured.http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/robert-dear-colorado-planned-parenthood-shooter-deemed-mentally-incompetent-n572431

On Wednesday, the same day that Philando Castile was killed by police in Minnesota, Conrad Richard Barrera allegedly robbed someone at gunpoint in Pocatello, Idaho. Police showed up to break up the armed scuffle and he was arrested a short time later in a nearby trailer park.http://www.localnews8.com/news/Pocatello-man-arrested-after-threatening-a-victim-with-a-gun/40384168

Dylan Roof, suspected of gunning down nine people during their Bible study in a church in Charleston, was captured in a traffic stop without incident last summer. He was armed when he was arrested. He was so hungry when he was captured, police went out and bought a burger. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/dylann-roof-burger-king-cops-meal-article-1.2267615

Joseph Houseman, 63, stood in his pajama pants in front of a Kalamazoo Dairy Queen with a rifle, yelling at passersby. People called 911 and when police arrived, they tried to talk to him. He gave them the middle finger and grabbed his crotch. When one of the cops asked him to put the gun down, he told him he was “acting like a prick”. Did he die? Nope. Not even arrested.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/17/joseph-houseman-open-carry_n_5501883.html

Now tell me again why Tamir Rice, John Crawford, Alton Sterling, and Philando Castile had to die. Because I don't get it.  

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Sorry guys, I'm struggling to keep up here.  Time constraints won't allow me to respond to everyone.  What I can do is try to be a little more clear about what my concern and question is. First....

Second....police apprehend white men with guns, all the time, without killing them.  Think about Philando Castile, John Crawford, Tamir Rice....then compare their situations to these stories....credit to Petula Dvorak who put together this list on Facebook.  I used his list, and words, but added links to the news stories. 

James Holmes...the man who killed people at the Batman Premeire....police arrested him after the incident at his car.  

Sean Francis Wanamaker....Last week, a guy was in an argument at the Motel 6 in South Lake Tahoe and folks there said he was waving around a gun. He booked outta there. But on a beach nearby, with no incident, the police SWAT team arrested Sean Francis Wanamaker, 32, alleging he was the guy with the gun. Oops, he's also a parolee, county records show. So having a gun in the first place is a total no-no. http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2016/07/04/south-lake-tahoe-parolee-arrested-stateline-beach/86679188/

In Laconia, New Hampshire last month, a city police officer was serving court papers to Ernest Thompson, 32. The officer said Thompson was not a good host, and threatened to sic his dogs on her. Then, according to her court affidavit, Thompson allegedly “pulled the gun from the small of his back, pointed his arm out in front of him, about shoulder height, away from my direction and shot his gun several times rapidly". The officer cleared out, but returned with backup and found Thompson riding around on his tractor. There wasn't much fuss when police arrested him, without incident. http://www.wmur.com/news/man-in-custody-after-police-response-forced-road-closure-in-gilford/39537344

in New Orleans, folks told police a guy was firing off a handgun, and they said he even pointed it through the mail slot of an apartment building. Police showed up and arrested 33-year-old Chase Hardesty, without incident. They said his gun was loaded. http://www.wwltv.com/news/crime/man-waving-gun-on-magazine-street-arrested-sunday/250462426

On Tuesday, drivers in Raleigh, North Carolina, reported that a man was standing at the road pointing a shotgun at them. When officers arrived at the scene, they said they found William Bruce Ray, 62, and he pulled out a handgun and fired at them, missing. "As a deputy, you don’t ever know what to expect when you’re approaching something like that, so your training kicks in,” said the deputy who wrestled the gun out of Ray's hand and arrested him, without injury. “And of course when the gun came up, it was automatic to him to get that gun away from him.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/william-bruce-ray-arrested_us_577efceae4b0344d514eb09e

On an evening this past May, police arrived at the Kindred Crossings West nursing home in New London, Connecticut after folks reported a drunken man waving a gun at the home. Without incident, they arrested Paul Bialowas, 66, who is from Louisiana. He had a revolver on him. And in his rental car, police found an AR-15 assault weapon, two pistols, assorted ammunition and a large capacity ammunition magazine. He made his $75,000 bail on four felony and four misdemeanor charges. http://www.wfsb.com/story/32045853/drunk-man-went-into-new-london-nursing-home-with-gun

Robert W. Sweatman, 45, was arrested in Bath Township, Ohio, last month after he allegedly brandished a weapon at another driver (he told police the guy had his brights on) on Interstate 77. When he was arrested and videotaped with a police body camera, officers found a 9 mm gun in the car center console of his white Cadillac, 11 rounds in a magazine and brass knuckles. The indictment filed in Summit County Court said he did not have a concealed carry permit. http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/oh-summit/fairlawn-man-arrested-for-pointing-gun-at-driver-on-interstate-77-in-bath-township

Jesse Deflorio was 22 when he was arrested after police said they found him hiding behind a Dumpster, shooting a BB gun at them in Concord, New Hampshire in 2014. They said he was arrested for shooting at random people with his BB gun a year earlier. Both arrests were without incident. http://patch.com/new-hampshire/concord-nh/concord-man-accused-firing-bbs-cops

Robert Dear, 58, was arrested last November, after a five-hour standoff in a Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood clinic. He had a duffle bag full of rifles and handguns. He wore a homemade bullet-proof vest reinforced with coins. Two civilians were killed, four others were shot. A police officer was killed, five other officers were shot. Dear, however, is alive and uninjured.http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/robert-dear-colorado-planned-parenthood-shooter-deemed-mentally-incompetent-n572431

On Wednesday, the same day that Philando Castile was killed by police in Minnesota, Conrad Richard Barrera allegedly robbed someone at gunpoint in Pocatello, Idaho. Police showed up to break up the armed scuffle and he was arrested a short time later in a nearby trailer park.http://www.localnews8.com/news/Pocatello-man-arrested-after-threatening-a-victim-with-a-gun/40384168

Dylan Roof, suspected of gunning down nine people during their Bible study in a church in Charleston, was captured in a traffic stop without incident last summer. He was armed when he was arrested. He was so hungry when he was captured, police went out and bought a burger. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/dylann-roof-burger-king-cops-meal-article-1.2267615

Joseph Houseman, 63, stood in his pajama pants in front of a Kalamazoo Dairy Queen with a rifle, yelling at passersby. People called 911 and when police arrived, they tried to talk to him. He gave them the middle finger and grabbed his crotch. When one of the cops asked him to put the gun down, he told him he was “acting like a prick”. Did he die? Nope. Not even arrested.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/17/joseph-houseman-open-carry_n_5501883.html

Now tell me again why Tamir Rice, John Crawford, Alton Sterling, and Philando Castile had to die. Because I don't get it.  

because not all PDs are exactly the same or have exactly the same regulations or training, nor do all police occurrences happen in the exact same spot with the exact same people, with the exact same contexts or exact same situations.

 

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5 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

police apprehend white men with guns, all the time, without killing them.

Police apprehend black men with guns, all the time, without killing them.

Police apprehend white men with guns (and without guns), all the time, and kill them.

So?

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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Guest LiterateParakeet
3 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Police apprehend black men with guns, all the time, without killing them.

Police apprehend white men with guns (and without guns), all the time, and kill them.

So?

Lehi

Police KILL black men armed or not, all the time.  That is my point.  But Dylan Roof gets a hamburger.  

@Blackmarch true, but not good enough for me when black people are killed in such high numbers.  http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/12/28/3735190/killed-by-police-2015/

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21 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Police KILL black men armed or not, all the time.  That is my point.  But Dylan Roof gets a hamburger.  

You are determined to find racism under every rock and behind every tree.

White guys get killed 2½ as often as Black guys when they encounter the cops. It's not racism that kills black guys, it's their tendency to break the law. Well, that and other Black guys. If Black Lives really mattered, they'd stop killing each other. Black Lies Matter is just an excuse to kill cops and extort more stuff from White USA.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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19 hours ago, LeSellers said:

That doesn't square with the BLM chant, "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon!"

Were that the only example of the BLM hatred of the police, we might let it slide, but it is not an anomaly, it's the standard.

Lehi

Prove it's the standard.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
9 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

You are determined to find racism under every rock and behind every tree.

And you are determined not to see it.  You are completely wrong about Black Lives Matter, but clearly nothing I say will persuade you...and yes you could say the same about me.  So I agree to disagree. 

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Guest MormonGator
2 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Prove it's the standard.

Exactly. It isn't the standard at all. On the night of the shootings in Dallas a mean, nasty and evil Foxnews  reporter (tongue in cheek, I like Foxnews!) interviewed some BLM protesters and they were saddened and outraged by the death of the police officer. You can't blame BLM for the actions of a lunatic anymore than you can blame the NRA or police officers for the actions of a lunatic. 

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I can appreciate both sides of this one.

Maybe it seems odd, but I think both @LeSellers and @LiterateParakeet are right.  The black community is indeed the cause of many of its own problems, but at the same time, racism is still demonstrably a problem in some areas, and it naturally affects local police departments. 

What I think magnifies all of this is, unsurprisingly, the media.  It distorts things in order to keep us fighting with each other and tuning in for the latest.  But then,  he media has its own racial bias at times.  A white girl goes missing and it becomes a national media story.  A black girl who lived a block away goes missing and he story doesn't even make the front page.  Is it racism, or does the media just figure more white people are tuning in?

I dunno.  But the more we fight over it, the less progress gets made.

Edited by unixknight
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2 minutes ago, Backroads said:
19 hours ago, LeSellers said:

That doesn't square with the BLM chant, "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon!"

Were that the only example of the BLM hatred of the police, we might let it slide, but it is not an anomaly, it's the standard.

Prove it's the standard.

If you don't believe it, go and read the news.

Dallas: five cops killed by a Black Lies matter adherent. A Black preacher says kill White USA. Riots with rocks (at the least). If any at all, only a few have passed these last months without just that: BLM whining that they gotta kill  cops and other Whites USAans.

Lehi

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Guest MormonGator
2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

 

What I think magnifies all of this is, unsurprisingly, the media.  It distorts things in order to keep us fighting with each other and tuning in for the latest.  But then,  he media has its own racial bias at times.  A white girl goes missing and it becomes a national media story.  A black girl who lived a block away goes missing and he story doesn't even make the front page.  Is it racism, or does the media just figure more white people are tuning in?

 

Dude you are absolutely right about this. 

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Guest LiterateParakeet
19 hours ago, LeSellers said:

That doesn't square with the BLM chant, "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon!"

Were that the only example of the BLM hatred of the police, we might let it slide, but it is not an anomaly, it's the standard.

Lehi

Sorry I missed this message before.....They didn't say that, Fox news falsely edited the tape...and later admitted the lie.  I know a lot of people in the movement, and they are not as you say.  You've got it all wrong.  

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Now, to pull out the honesty, I disagree with quite a bit of BLM. I think the movement has increased problems and many of the goals being asked for are matters I just can't politically support.

But... it does still have a few things I as a human must support.

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Guest MormonGator
2 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Now, to pull out the honesty, I disagree with quite a bit of BLM. I think the movement has increased problems and many of the goals being asked for are matters I just can't politically support.

But... it does still have a few things I as a human must support.

 Beautifully said. I totally agree with you Backroads. I am increasingly worried with their behavior interrupting innocent people lives and I am certainly terrified that they'll escalate the war on police officers. 

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5 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

If you don't believe it, go and read the news.

Dallas: five cops killed by a Black Lies matter adherent. A Black preacher says kill White USA. Riots with rocks (at the least). If any at all, only a few have passed these last months without just that: BLM whining that they gotta kill  cops and other Whites USAans.

Lehi

I'm not arguing against wackos here and there.

I'm asking you to prove it's the standard.

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