For the Ladies, Who would you marry?

[LeSellers]

7 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

the whole premise is ridiculous, anyway. Why would I be in love with 2 men at once, and both with difficult pasts that I am absolutely forced to choose from?

That's what I said:

On 7/15/2016 at 10:04 AM, LeSellers said:

I am curious as to why "Neither" is not an option. Life does not force the hypothetical sister into marrying either of these brothers or none at all.

… but the problem is real, and I think that there is too much cost in choosing someone with that much or kind of baggage, especially when there are Saints who don't come burdened like this. It's for the children, literally.

Lehi

Edited July 18, 2016 by LeSellers

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

It does feel a bit like this thread is a manipulation to downplay porn, because "at least it's not real sex".

It is not about down playing the dangers of porn....  Its about not blowing it up so that they are worse then murders or adultery.... Or yes even the very real dangers that (both physical and spiritual) of fornication.

If you want it list in order the level of Sin it should be Murder, Adultery, Fornication, and Porn...  in that order...  Just because it is last on the that short list does not mean it is not a horrible damaging thing to do....  Yet this thread polls show that the order of the last two is reversed and that it might even out do Adultery and that is just wrong

[Guest]

I wouldn't list or classify sins. I didn't say that heavy porn usage is worse than casual sex. I'm saying that the lasting consequences are likely more difficult to conquer, and if I had to choose one or the other, I wouldn't choose to bear that cross. I feel badly for those who do. One of my closest friends has been going through it for years, and even though her husband is repentant, the struggles are heavy for both of them. 

But again, impossible premise so almost pointless conversation. 

[Just_A_Guy]

10 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I wouldn't list or classify sins. I didn't say that heavy porn usage is worse than casual sex. I'm saying that the lasting consequences are likely more difficult to conquer, and if I had to choose one or the other, I wouldn't choose to bear that cross. I feel badly for those who do. One of my closest friends has been going through it for years, and even though her husband is repentant, the struggles are heavy for both of them. 

But again, impossible premise so almost pointless conversation. 

Then again, dealing with the child support, visitation, co-parenting, and other issues that can come up around the offspring of a one-night stand (the existence of which offspring, cannot be definitively disproven for nearly the next two decades) are heavy counterweights in the other direction.  

(But my perspective may be skewed due to my line of work  )

[mdfxdb]

For me this has been an interesting exercise, and has somewhat opened my eyes to how lds women feel about porn in general.  As a man I would say that women's feelings about porn vs. breaking the LOC show to some extent a fundamental misunderstanding about men and how their minds work.  On one hand you have someone watching an act.  On the other you have someone performing an act. 

Ladies, I can assure you that the mind of the habitual fornicator is no less depraved than the mind of the pornographer.  They are thinking the same things, and objectifying women in the same ways.  The fundamental difference is one is acting upon it, and the other is only watching it.  

It is interesting that a woman would choose someone who had many, many sexual partners, and probably lots and lots of sex with each and every one of them, over someone who has had sex with no one.  Both sins carry tremendous amounts of baggage.  Women concerned about how porn has affected the way a man thinks need to re-thing their perceptions about the promiscuous man, and the way he thinks.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Eowyn said:

 

It does feel a bit like this thread is a manipulation to downplay porn, because "at least it's not real sex". 

 

Called it.

[classylady]

Why can't neither be an option?  I would run away as fast as possible from either man.

If I actually had to choose, at gunpoint, to marry one of these men I would most likely choose the one who watched porn. From my perspective, because I am married to a man who was married before, the pain of being compared to a real former lover is at times unbearable. (And, my husband was not promiscuous). It is the most difficult trial I have had to bear in my marriage. I also understand that the comparison to women on porn sites is hard too, but I would prefer the "pretend" relationship over a "real" relationship anytime.

[Guest]

I think the reason LDS men downplay porn is because we are afraid of it.  It takes some real planning to commit adultery - you have to find a willing partner, engage in an inappropriate relationship often for weeks, etc... On the other hand, one can have sinned with pornography by looking at the wrong Yahoo.com news feed for ten seconds.  It really is frightening, and although I personally have never had a pornography problem, a part of me wonders if I may someday fall to it... We don't want to believe we can permanently become damaged when the sin is so easy to fall into.

Edited July 18, 2016 by DoctorLemon

[Backroads]

To throw this out in regards to either thread...

I'm seeing many chimes of running far from all choices. Now I'm all for making decisions about who to marry and open eyes and the natural consequences of sins...

But in these scenarios hypothetical we have repentant gospel-focused folk. Is it best to just remove themselves from the marital market? At what point are you being practical about consequences of sin in a potential marriage and at what point is it a pride issue about how your wonderful self found a "perfect" partner to make you look good?

[SpiritDragon]

1 hour ago, DoctorLemon said:

I think the reason LDS men downplay porn is because we are afraid of it.  It takes some real planning to commit adultery - you have to find a willing partner, engage in an inappropriate relationship often for weeks, etc... On the other hand, one can have sinned with pornography by looking at the wrong Yahoo.com news feed for ten seconds.  It really is frightening, and although I personally have never had a pornography problem, a part of me wonders if I may someday fall to it... We don't want to believe we can permanently become damaged when the sin is so easy to fall into.

I wonder if this isn't also reflected in the opinions being expressed by our sisters here. The actual affair would be much more difficult to hide than slipping back into the porn habit. It is easier to spy out potential threats that require the time investment of a "real" affair, while the pornographic affair can happen at the drop of a hat. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Something I learned recently from the book, Man Interrupted by Phillip Zimbardo is that a common problem in our society is young men watching hours and hours of pornography videos...before they have ever even had sex with a woman.  Then when it they have an opportunity to be with a real woman, they find themselves at a real loss because they have been give such an unreal idea about sex from these videos.  In porn videos there is no real talking, communication, care and consideration for the needs of one's partner...it's all about ONE thing and that is the man's pleasure.  Some of them are down right abusive and vile.  

Many young men are finding they physically can't have sex with a woman after too much porn.  Zimbardo explains the mental and physical damage that porn does.  It is not "only porn".  It is objectifying to women and also victimizes the men who watch it.  There are no winners here.  

[anatess2]

The cuter guy.  Especially if he has a better-paying job.  There's something to be said about liking the first thing you see in the morning.  Puts you in a good mood right off.

[estradling75]

10 hours ago, Eowyn said:

Called it.

For some one that didn't want to argue... you are sure doing it...

Certain posters have always been a bit more out of sync with the church teachings then others...  To dismiss all posters because of them is manifestly unfair.  But it is clear to me that what I say does not matter so I am dropping out of this thread.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

For some one that didn't want to argue... you are sure doing it...

Certain posters have always been a bit more out of sync with the church teachings then others...  To dismiss all posters because of them is manifestly unfair.  But it is clear to me that what I say does not matter so I am dropping out of this thread.

Apologies, as I'm only applying that motivation to the OP.

 

FWIW I'm not feeling heard or understood here, either. I think some topics are just too sensitive for people to be able to discuss them meanilngfully in a format like this.

[BeccaKirstyn]

Personally, I'd choose neither, although I do believe my generation is dealing with the former hypothetical scenario a lot more often than we think. 

If I had to choose, I would choose scenario B because of the same sentiments stated by LiterateParakeet and Eowyn. I've studied the effects of pornography and have seen them in real life from former individuals I've dated and I personally cannot be involved with a man who has that kind of addiction. (again, viewing that these two scenarios are mutually exclusive). My personality gets too involved into their own demons and problems that I cannot find my way back to happiness. It takes the right personality to be a partner to a spouse who has an addiction to such a substance, and I do not have it. I know women who do and I'm grateful they have the ability to separate themselves enough to let their husbands fight their own battles, but to also be a loving support system in a balanced way. 

[NeedleinA]

It would be great to see more Sisters vote above on the poll. Votes are confidential, it appears. 

[SilentOne]

My immediate reaction was to go for the porn guy, mainly out of concern about STDs. Then I thought, does putting all other things equal mean that it has been proven that he has no STDs or children from prior liaisons? In that case I really do not have enough information to make a decision.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

For the men...if you are struggling to understand why most of us women would choose the philanderer over the guy with the porn history, this article (link below) sums it up really nicely.   Particularly this quote: 

Quote

I think most of us would be horrified if we saw what most porn today really is. It isn’t just pictures of naked women like there used to be in Playboy; most is very violent, extremely degrading, and very ugly.

In the book, Man Interrupted: Why Young Men are Struggling and What We Can Do to Help by Phillip Zimbardo, PhD, he gives some examples and it IS "violent, extremely degrading and very ugly."  I would be embarrassed to repeat it to you.  But I highly recommend the book because I learned a lot from it.  Even you don't want to read the whole book this article gives a great summary. 

Top 10 Effects of Porn on Your Brain

http://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2014/03/effects-of-porn-on-your-marriage/

[mordorbund]

9 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

For the men...if you are struggling to understand why most of us women would choose the philanderer over the guy with the porn history, this article (link below) sums it up really nicely.   Particularly this quote: 

In the book, Man Interrupted: Why Young Men are Struggling and What We Can Do to Help by Phillip Zimbardo, PhD, he gives some examples and it IS "violent, extremely degrading and very ugly."  I would be embarrassed to repeat it to you.  But I highly recommend the book because I learned a lot from it.  Even you don't want to read the whole book this article gives a great summary. 

Top 10 Effects of Porn on Your Brain

http://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2014/03/effects-of-porn-on-your-marriage/

If we were just discussing porn, I think this article does a good job of explaining some of the reluctance. But we have another suitor, and reading the article with his past in mind I see little difference (except degree and physicality).

1. Is "just" the wife enough for a man who changes partners every 4 months? What will the marriage be like 6 months in? 1 year?
2. How will this affect his libido if he's conditioned himself to expect new experiences every 4 months?
3. This is actually a win for the libertine, unless we're dealing with the binge case I mentioned above.
4. Is similar to 3 but introduces bonding hormones. How bonded will Prince Promiscuous be after having multiple partners in rapid succession?
5. Those who have a husband on his second (or more) marriage have shared the same concern.
6. This seems a bit of a strawman, complete with "I'm not saying...". So if this might be a non-issue (as in statistically insignificant), but if it's not then Prince will be gentler.
7. I can't quite tell if we're scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Anecdotally, I figure many women don't really object to sex ending quickly, since the general solution to making it last longer is to have it more frequently (how strange that when the forum was more open we didn't get a lot of threads on that, and when increasing frequency is otherwise suggested, there's typically push back).
8. Applies also to our very popular libertine. His past indicates that he can pick up a new partner at the drop of a hat.
9. This sounds like a valid concern to also have with our hat-dropping suitor.
10. The libertine has the same problem - but it's not from watching videos, it's from actually living it.

If you were concerned about marrying a mountain man, would you marry the man who lived in the woods for 3 years living off the fat of the lam or the man who enjoys playing Oregon Trail? Both have rewired their brains to romanticize the great outdoors, both may even display physical symptoms when sniffing pinesol, but our woodsman has actual muscle memory.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

If we were just discussing porn, I think this article does a good job of explaining some of the reluctance. But we have another suitor, and reading the article with his past in mind I see little difference (except degree and physicality)

First, remember that the OP question was pick one or the other.  I'm not saying I would want the other guy either. I agree with you that his past is troubling. But if I have to choose one rather than reject them both, I'll choose the philanderer, hands down.  For the reason that hopefully his experiences with women were not violent. Porn is frequently violent and degrading the woman. I couldn't be with a man that could watch that.

 

 

@Eowyn sorry Eowyn...this is a forum glitch. I tagged you in my last post so now the it's here and I can't delete it. 

I mean when I make a second post on a thread, on my phone, the forum always brings up my last post. I usually just delete it, but the forum won't let me delete the tag.

Edited July 19, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[LeSellers]

12 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I mean when I make a second post on a thread, on my phone, the forum always brings up my last post. I usually just delete it, but the forum won't let me delete the tag.

It happens on my computer, too: really disturbing. Even if I close the tab and open the same topic (hours or days later), the tag persists.

Bug or feature? You decide.

Lehi

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@mordorbund I sent you a PM, that I hope will clarify this bettwr...some of it might be TMI for some readers.

Now I have a question for the men. Why does this bother you so much? To be clear, I'm not saying I would reject any guy who ever  looked at porn. That would be ridiculous since it's pretty much unavoidable these days. What I, and other women, are objecting too is hours and hours  (maybe years) of it. And remember the poll said we could only choose one. So why is ther so much push back on the one we chose. Would you still be debating this if the majority of women chose the guy with the porn history? Why?

[estradling75]

11 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@mordorbund I sent you a PM, that I hope will clarify this bettwr...some of it might be TMI for some readers.

Now I have a question for the men. Why does this bother you so much? To be clear, I'm not saying I would reject any guy who ever  looked at porn. That would be ridiculous since it's pretty much unavoidable these days. What I, and other women, are objecting too is hours and hours  (maybe years) of it. And remember the poll said we could only choose one. So why is ther so much push back on the one we chose. Would you still be debating this if the majority of women chose the guy with the porn history? Why?

I can't speak for all guys but for me it is very simple...

In my head i have a list of Sexual sins classifications listed order of how severe they are..  (Yes I know there are issues with such... but nonetheless)

They are Adultery, then Fornication, then Porn.  They are all bad, but that them from worst to least.   But from the poll it would appear that woman would say Adultery, then Porn, then Fornication.  And based on some prior posts on this forum it might even go Porn, then Adultery, then Fornication...   That that just seem all kinds of wrong and messed up...  And when we try to ask why.... the answers don't seem to make a whole lot of sense most of the time.

 

 

[estradling75]

On 7/18/2016 at 8:30 AM, estradling75 said:

 so I am dropping out of this thread.

D'oh....  that didn't last long

[Wheats]

59 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@mordorbund I sent you a PM, that I hope will clarify this bettwr...some of it might be TMI for some readers.

Now I have a question for the men. Why does this bother you so much? To be clear, I'm not saying I would reject any guy who ever  looked at porn. That would be ridiculous since it's pretty much unavoidable these days. What I, and other women, are objecting too is hours and hours  (maybe years) of it. And remember the poll said we could only choose one. So why is ther so much push back on the one we chose. Would you still be debating this if the majority of women chose the guy with the porn history? Why?

I think it's because of the very way this topic has played out. In the eyes of many, not all, viewing porn is unforgivable. "I know he's repented and forgiven of the Lord, but not by me". The notion that one can not completely turn away from something baffles me.