The Coup in Turkey.

[Traveler]

I was recently on vacation in Europe and Turkey (just weeks ago).  As I understand, the primary reason for the Coup in Turkey is centered on the refugee problem and the handling of the Syrian civil war.  Up until now, I did not think the upcoming election would make that much of an actual difference.    Though the NATO countries are currently on board with US foreign policy in the Middle East this is not the sentiment of the citizen population of Europe that I encountered.   Though it is not a scientific survey – I did not talk to a single citizen in any European country that thinks their country is doing the right thing accepting Syrian refugees.  And our current president is not popular at all – I would say less so than he is here or will be at the Republican convention – negations and talking and speeches just do not cut it.

In essence Turkey is taking to changing a very unpopular policy through the military Coup and I believe the vast majority of the citizens support the change.  Not sure how this will translate in our media here.   This coup is a 100% rejection of American foreign policy.  But this is even worse – The most popular world leader that is respected for making the most sense is Vladimir Putin.    If Turkey aligns with Russia – we will suffer the worse foreign policy blunder in the history of this country.

I realize that  foreign policy is not the #1 issue in America in the upcoming election but I am certain that if the Democrats remain in power – the world will have significant changes that will impact the USA in ways we have not possible.  The idea that our enemies do not fear us and our allies do not respect us will come to fruition in ways that will not have just an economic effect (full blown depression) but other things of even worse consequence.   For example – I believe that it is possible that we could experience the detonation of a nuclear device in one or more of our major cities and population areas.

If you have not guessed it by now – I am very concerned with what will happen next – I think we will see, very soon, prophesies fulfilled that were given in the Proclamation to the World.   This is not a good day.

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

47 minutes ago, Traveler said:

.   This is not a good day

 It'll only be a bad day if Yildirim says in power, which it looks like he will. If he got overthrown it would be a sort of good thing because of his love for fundamentalist Islam. 

And take a deep breath-things have a way of working out. After 9/11 people "knew" the world would be ending soon. After the 7/7 bombings in London people "knew" the world would be ending soon. People always love to think that the times are terrible and not getting better-but in reality, the world is truly getting better. 

We are still here, it's not the end of the world, and things will be fine. 

Edited July 16, 2016 by MormonGator

[Just_A_Guy]

MG, I would respectfully disagree.  Yes, global poverty is down--which is wonderful.  But the day before 9/11 it was absolutely unthinkable that someone could go somewhere in the world and have his throat slit just for the crime of being an American national, or that someone would dare to kill an American ambassador, or that America would be fundamentally powerless to resist renewed Russian and Chinese aggression, or that the American government would sit on its hands and lock the door against Christian refugees fleeing new Islamist caliphates in north Africa and the middle East that were openly establishing a Christian slave trade, or that the German and British governments would look the other way while literally thousands of their citizens were being raped by foreigners in their own homelands, or that NATO would suffer dozens of terrorist attacks killing hundreds of citizens and not respond with an iron resolution to make the perpetrators howl.

Remember that line in Raiders of the Lost Ark, where Marian is being kidnapped and she says "You can't do this to me, I'm an American!!!"  It was funny because--in 1981--it was true.  But it's not true anymore.

The fact that thousands of Zimbabweans now earn three bucks a day rather than $1.50 a day like they used to is all well and good.  But for westerners, in many ways the world as we knew it *did* end on 9/11.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

8 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The fact that thousands of Zimbabweans now earn three bucks a day rather than $1.50 a day like they used to is all well and good.  But for westerners, in many ways the world as we knew it *did* end on 9/11.

9/11 was one of the worst days of my life, without question. So obviously I don't want to downplay the horror of it. Even though it took away some of our innocence, we're still here. We're still with our families, living lives that our ancestors could only dream about. Air conditioning. Multiple cars. More free time. Healthier, longer lifespans. So the world as we know it didn't end, it just changed. 

[Traveler]

A little follow up from my initial post.  Generally I found that in many countries in Europe (including Turkey) most of the citizens trust the military more than the police.  I was told directly that this is because the police tend to be more corrupt and influenced by  local powers and bribes.  Since the military is often transferred it is more difficult to corrupt them.  Another note of difference from the USA, is that the European military are used for much more for civilian protection roles than here in the USA.  It almost appeared to me that the local police were something on the level of a mall security cop.  Often the police do not carry guns.  But the military are well armed and prepared for combat or swat duty.

Though Turkey is a Moslem state they are very sectarian and believe in separation between church and state but not to the extent as here in the USA.  There are many populated areas in Turkey where the calls to prayer are not heard.  Lately there has been moves by the president to be more supportive of Islam and to move away from the West and NATO.  Now that the coup has failed all the opposing factions critical of the president are being blamed and punished.   It is likely that the US will no longer be able to use bases in Turkey to fight against Islamic terrorists.  The only way that these events are not a failure of our administration is if our administration intended that Turkey become more Islamic.  I have discussed this with my very Democrat friends - they are alarmed and even offended that I would imply that our administration would deliberately be involved in Turkey becoming Islamic - Then I contend - the foreign policy has failed once again. 

When it comes to politics and religion supporters of a particular faction will stand in the light of noon day and declare it night rather than admit obvious truth they do not like at the moment.  I caught part of a conservative radio host broadcast today that suggested it is impossible to find common ground with "Liberals".  Many forget that prior to WWII, few were interested in the US involvement in another war - right up the the bombing of Pearl Harbor.  It took that for a generation to stand up and fight and become known as the greatest generation.  What will it take again to unite this country and bring all to the table of compromise???  How about the detonation of a nuclear device or several in a major population center or centers?  Could we be headed there - how soon we forget - following the fall of communism in Russia enough nuclear material became "lost" to create at least 100 nuclear devices - and is still missing.  Is the current election a difference maker?

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

On 7/16/2016 at 9:35 PM, Traveler said:

I think we will see, very soon, prophesies fulfilled that were given in the Proclamation to the World.  

Well, thank goodness!  That's why I'm casting my vote for Hillary Clinton.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Guest

[Blackmarch]

The government is only 1 to 2 generations removed from the one that committed genocide.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Blackmarch said:

The government is only 1 to 2 generations removed from the one that committed genocide.

That many?

[LeSellers]

21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

2 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

The [Turkish] government is only 1 to 2 generations removed from the one that committed genocide.

That many?

It happened 101 years ago. That's at least two, probably three generations removed.

Lehi

Edited July 21, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest]

1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

It happened 101 years ago. That's at least two, probably three generations removed.

Lehi

Sorry, I confused it with the Armenian genocide -- committed by "the young turks".

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Sorry, I confused it with the Armenian genocide -- committed by "the young turks".

No, not confused.

The Armenian genocide happened in ~1915, 101 years ago.

I haven't checked, and probably should, to see if there has been another genocide in Anatolia,

Lehi

[Traveler]

Generally I found that citizens of Europe look at time and years very differently than we do here in the US.  For example most building structures (including private homes) are between 400 and 1,000 years old.  Areas of growth have building and zoning laws that require new structures use basic architecture that fit with it surrounding areas. Areas are considered old that are from the medieval era or before - contemporary is 200 to 300 years old or less.  When I was in Barcelona there was a strong movement to succeed from Spain.  People there told me they have never thought of themselves as part of Spain - then explained that (about the time of the American Revolution) Spain came into their area with armies and conquered against the will of the people and now they want their independence. 

It is likely there will be a civil war in Spain in our lifetime.  Europe is unhappy with the uniting - UK being a example of people wanting separation.  I would think people would get over such things in a generation - but it does not appear to be the case.  The exception of here in the USA - where we want to make the federal government stronger.  I see the trend towards a stronger federal government at the expense of "State's Rights" as a road to the break up of this country.  I have speculated that when Jesus returns as the King that his kingdom will be a federation of states of languages and cultures and a distributed process of rule.

 

The Traveler