Guest Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 I'm guessing you all know what this passage means to Mormons. What does it mean to non-Mormons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeSellers Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Not at all addressing the topic, but it is interesting to me that this is the only passage I know of that is quoted or cited in all five standard works: It's obviously in Malachi (Old Testament). It's in Luke (New Testament), and in 3 Nephi (Book of Mormon), Joseph Smith–History (Pearl of Great Price), and, not once, not twice, not even five, but six times in the Doctrine and Covenants. 'Tseems important. In fact, it seems to be the whole focus of the Restoration: getting the family of Adam sealed together as an offering to the Lord. Lehi DennisTate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) In Catholic tradition, Malachi 4 (in some Bibles , there's no Malachi 4 - rather, that chapter is in Malachi 3) talks of Elijah as returning to prepare mankind for the second coming of Christ in the same way that John the Baptist prepared the way for His first coming. Edited July 20, 2016 by anatess2 prisonchaplain and DennisTate 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 hours ago, anatess2 said: In Catholic tradition, Malachi 4 (in some Bibles , there's no Malachi 4 - rather, that chapter is in Malachi 3) talks of Elijah as returning to prepare mankind for the second coming of Christ in the same way that John the Baptist prepared the way for His first coming. Would that be the same Elijah as in the Old Testament who was taken up into heaven? He, himself, is to return to earth and preach on earth to prepare the way for the Lord's second coming? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Carborendum said: Would that be the same Elijah as in the Old Testament who was taken up into heaven? He, himself, is to return to earth and preach on earth to prepare the way for the Lord's second coming? Yes. In Catholic teaching, they refer to Genesis whereby "All people must die". Elijah and Enoch are two who were preserved without death. They would then be the two witnesses in the 2nd coming with Elijah specifically named in Malachi who will be the herald for repentance against the anti-Christ which would then be when they are expected to complete their respective missions and die. DennisTate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 16 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Yes. In Catholic teaching, they refer to Genesis whereby "All people must die". Elijah and Enoch are two who were preserved without death. They would then be the two witnesses in the 2nd coming with Elijah specifically named in Malachi who will be the herald for repentance against the anti-Christ which would then be when they are expected to complete their respective missions and die. That's interesting. I wonder what other sects say about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 5 minutes ago, Carborendum said: That's interesting. I wonder what other sects say about this. Imagine my, "huh?" as an LDS investigator. Jane_Doe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeSellers Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 16 hours ago, Carborendum said: I'm guessing you all know what this passage means to Mormons. I;m not so sure we know as much as we think we do. Yes, it is the quintessential scripture for showing the necessity of Temple work (but see also Matt 16:13~19). But we might also wonder who "the fathers" are. Or, perhaps better, which fathers Malachi was speaking of. The context shows that it is not solely our progenitors, but, specific ancestors: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Interestingly, Nephi spends a lot of time talking about these men, or, more accurately, about their being the ones with whom God established His covenant. It is, as best I can tell, the covenant that makes Temple work so profound and foundational. Lehi mordorbund 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) @prisonchaplain you're reneging on your duties as our resident evangelical! Edited July 20, 2016 by anatess2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) 26 minutes ago, LeSellers said: I;m not so sure we know as much as we think we do. Yes, it is the quintessential scripture for showing the necessity of Temple work (but see also Matt 16:13~19). But we might also wonder who "the fathers" are. Or, perhaps better, which fathers Malachi was speaking of. The context shows that it is not solely our progenitors, but, specific ancestors: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Interestingly, Nephi spends a lot of time talking about these men, or, more accurately, about their being the ones with whom God established His covenant. It is, as best I can tell, the covenant that makes Temple work so profound and foundational. Lehi Dad, this question was directed at NON-Mormons. I didn't think it appropriate to bring ^^^ up. I've been doing some research on this very thing with the very same mindset that you bring up. After some research, I was going to start a thread in the Gospel Discussions forum. Edited July 20, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Isn't there a Jewish Seder tradition whereby the set an extra place for Elijah and, towards the end of the meal, send a child to the door to see whether Elijah has in fact come to join them this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 6 hours ago, anatess2 said: In Catholic tradition, Malachi 4 (in some Bibles , there's no Malachi 4 - rather, that chapter is in Malachi 3) talks of Elijah as returning to prepare mankind for the second coming of Christ in the same way that John the Baptist prepared the way for His first coming. Both my study Bible and Zondervan's commentary say that Malachi's prophet Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist. Luke 1:17 refers to John the Baptist and says: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Some also speculate that two prophets will come during the Great Tribulation (7-years of judgment upon the earth and the end of time), and that one of them will be Elijah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 12 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said: Both my study Bible and Zondervan's commentary say that Malachi's prophet Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist. Luke 1:17 refers to John the Baptist and says: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Some also speculate that two prophets will come during the Great Tribulation (7-years of judgment upon the earth and the end of time), and that one of them will be Elijah. Would you care to expound upon these a bit more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeSellers Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 58 minutes ago, Carborendum said: Dad, this question was directed at NON-Mormons. I didn't think it appropriate to bring ^^^ up. I've been doing some research on this very thing with the very same mindset that you bring up. After some research, I was going to start a thread in the Gospel Discussions forum. I know, but I didn't want to lose this thought. Lehi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 @Carborendum Again, relying on study Bible notes, the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. are said to come in the power and spirit of both Elijah and Moses. So, some believe they will indeed be these two prophets, brought back at the end of time. Others speculate that they may not be literal persons, but may represent the law, given by Moses and the prophets (Elijah). Still others say that the church (especially those bold and sincere believers), who will testify of God's laws and power. BTW, one fictional end times novel I read had one of the two witnesses as John, since Jesus had said he might not die before the 2nd coming. So, there are lots of theories about who they might be. The most literal understanding would be that Moses and Elijah (or perhaps John the Baptist) are the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeSellers Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 33 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said: Both my study Bible and Zondervan's commentary say that Malachi's prophet Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist. Luke 1:17 refers to John the Baptist and says: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. The question this raises is, how did John "turn the hearts of the fathers to the children"? He seems to have turned brother against brother and mother against daughter, but father to son? Not seeing it. On the other hand, we do see John as one fulfillment of the Malachi prophecy, just as Jesus told the Apostles he did. But that isn't the ultimate fulfillment. Lehi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Luke 1:17 says: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. So...apparently Luke did see it. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) 41 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said: Both my study Bible and Zondervan's commentary say that Malachi's prophet Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist. Luke 1:17 refers to John the Baptist and says: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Some also speculate that two prophets will come during the Great Tribulation (7-years of judgment upon the earth and the end of time), and that one of them will be Elijah. This is why I felt it necessary to mention that some Catholic bibles have Malachi 4 in Malachi 3. The split was made to differentiate the prophecies of the first coming (Malachi 3) from the prophecies of the second coming (Malachi 4). Jesus saying that Elijah has already come was referring to the spirit of Elijah (bringing people to repentance) in John the Baptist (Malachi 3) but not about the physical coming of Elijah as stated in Malachi 4. Edited July 20, 2016 by anatess2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Guys, I'm really not interested in getting into an argument over this. I'm just trying to get some background because of some thoughts I've had about this topic. So, don't shoot the messenger (PC) for giving the evangelical perspective on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Carborendum said: Guys, I'm really not interested in getting into an argument over this. I'm just trying to get some background because of some thoughts I've had about this topic. So, don't shoot the messenger (PC) for giving the evangelical perspective on it. Are you talking about my reply on PC's post? That was not an argument. That was a clarification of the Catholic perspective vis-a-vis the Evangelical perspective to tell YOU, the Mormon, that the Catholic split of Malachi 3 and 4 was made because of the confusion that came about the prophecy fulfilled in John the Baptist. Edited July 20, 2016 by anatess2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 I just took a quick look, and yes, my Evangelical eyes do not see a sharp dispensational shift from chapter 3 to 4. The Day of Judgment and The Day of the LORD both seem to have their "strong feet" in Christ's first coming, and their other in his 2nd coming. These are not the kind of discussions that Catholics and Evangelicals lose sleep over. :-) anatess2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) By the way, in Catholic teaching, the "fathers" and "children" in the prophecy refers to the OT prophets (fathers) and the Jews (children)... meaning "By bringing over the Jews to the faith of Christ, he shall reconcile them to their fathers, viz., the partiarchs and prophets; whose hearts for many ages have been turned away from them, because of their refusing to believe in Christ." (from my Duay Rhames bible's notes by Bishop Challoner). Edited July 20, 2016 by anatess2 prisonchaplain 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeSellers Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 46 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said: Luke 1:17 says: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. So...apparently Luke did see it. :-) Luke, although not as much as Matthew, picked OT prophecies and applied them, correctly (I feel the need to add this), to Christ. But that does not mean they were exclusively in reference to Christ (or, in this case, His cousin). We believe, as you must*, that prophecy often has dual fulfillment, or even multiple fulfillments. * For example, Isaiah's famous "virgin birth" prophecy: it referred initially to his own son, Maher-shalal-hashbaz, and then to Jesus Christ. Interestingly, however, neither boy was named "Immanuel". But whether Luke saw it or not, we do not see it in the Bible. Lehi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueskye2 Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 10 hours ago, prisonchaplain said: Both my study Bible and Zondervan's commentary say that Malachi's prophet Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist. Luke 1:17 refers to John the Baptist and says: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. This is my understanding as well, and is what Jesus said too. Matt 11:10-15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said: This is my understanding as well, and is what Jesus said too. Matt 11:10-15 Matt 11:10-15 in Roman Catholic tradition refers to Malachi 3 as Malachi 4 refers to the 2nd coming. This is the exegesis taught by all the Fathers - even Augustine, Aquinas, etc. - that answers the "reincarnation of Elijah into John" challenge against the Church's position of the error of the belief in reincarnation in addition to the challenge that "the price of original sin is death" as Elijah was born with original sin but did not die. Malachi 4 is a prophecy in Judicium Universale. See here if you want references: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm Edited July 21, 2016 by anatess2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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