Guest

What Does Malachi 4: 5-6 Mean?

Recommended Posts

Guest

I'm guessing you all know what this passage means to Mormons.  What does it mean to non-Mormons?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not at all addressing the topic, but it is interesting to me that this is the only passage I know of that is quoted or cited in all five standard works: It's obviously in Malachi (Old Testament). It's in Luke (New Testament), and in 3 Nephi (Book of Mormon), Joseph Smith–History (Pearl of Great Price), and, not once, not twice, not even five, but six times in the Doctrine and Covenants.

'Tseems important.

In fact, it seems to be the whole focus of the Restoration: getting the family of Adam sealed together as an offering to the Lord.

Lehi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Catholic tradition, Malachi 4 (in some Bibles , there's no Malachi 4 - rather, that chapter is in Malachi 3) talks of Elijah as returning to prepare mankind for the second coming of Christ in the same way that John the Baptist prepared the way for His first coming.

Edited by anatess2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

In Catholic tradition, Malachi 4 (in some Bibles , there's no Malachi 4 - rather, that chapter is in Malachi 3) talks of Elijah as returning to prepare mankind for the second coming of Christ in the same way that John the Baptist prepared the way for His first coming.

Would that be the same Elijah as in the Old Testament who was taken up into heaven?  He, himself, is to return to earth and preach on earth to prepare the way for the Lord's second coming?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Would that be the same Elijah as in the Old Testament who was taken up into heaven?  He, himself, is to return to earth and preach on earth to prepare the way for the Lord's second coming?

Yes.  In Catholic teaching, they refer to Genesis whereby "All people must die".  Elijah and Enoch are two who were preserved without death.  They would then be the two witnesses in the 2nd coming with Elijah specifically named in Malachi who will be the herald for repentance against the anti-Christ which would then be when they are expected to complete their respective missions and die.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
16 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yes.  In Catholic teaching, they refer to Genesis whereby "All people must die".  Elijah and Enoch are two who were preserved without death.  They would then be the two witnesses in the 2nd coming with Elijah specifically named in Malachi who will be the herald for repentance against the anti-Christ which would then be when they are expected to complete their respective missions and die.

That's interesting.  I wonder what other sects say about this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm guessing you all know what this passage means to Mormons.

I;m not so sure we know as much as we think we do.

Yes, it is the quintessential scripture for showing the necessity of Temple work (but see also Matt 16:13~19). But we might also wonder who "the fathers" are. Or, perhaps better,  which fathers Malachi was speaking of. The context shows that it is not solely our progenitors, but, specific ancestors: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Interestingly, Nephi spends a lot of time talking about these men, or, more accurately, about their being the ones with whom God established His covenant. It is, as best I can tell, the covenant that makes Temple work so profound and foundational.

Lehi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
26 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I;m not so sure we know as much as we think we do.

Yes, it is the quintessential scripture for showing the necessity of Temple work (but see also Matt 16:13~19). But we might also wonder who "the fathers" are. Or, perhaps better,  which fathers Malachi was speaking of. The context shows that it is not solely our progenitors, but, specific ancestors: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Interestingly, Nephi spends a lot of time talking about these men, or, more accurately, about their being the ones with whom God established His covenant. It is, as best I can tell, the covenant that makes Temple work so profound and foundational.

Lehi

Dad, this question was directed at NON-Mormons.  I didn't think it appropriate to bring ^^^ up.  I've been doing some research on this very thing with the very same mindset that you bring up.  After some research, I was going to start a thread in the Gospel Discussions forum.

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't there a Jewish Seder tradition whereby the set an extra place for Elijah and, towards the end of the meal, send a child to the door to see whether Elijah has in fact come to join them this year?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

In Catholic tradition, Malachi 4 (in some Bibles , there's no Malachi 4 - rather, that chapter is in Malachi 3) talks of Elijah as returning to prepare mankind for the second coming of Christ in the same way that John the Baptist prepared the way for His first coming.

Both my study Bible and Zondervan's commentary say that Malachi's prophet Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist.  Luke 1:17 refers to John the Baptist and says:  And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Some also speculate that two prophets will come during the Great Tribulation (7-years of judgment upon the earth and the end of time), and that one of them will be Elijah.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
12 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Both my study Bible and Zondervan's commentary say that Malachi's prophet Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist.  Luke 1:17 refers to John the Baptist and says:  And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Some also speculate that two prophets will come during the Great Tribulation (7-years of judgment upon the earth and the end of time), and that one of them will be Elijah.
 

Would you care to expound upon these a bit more?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Dad, this question was directed at NON-Mormons.  I didn't think it appropriate to bring ^^^ up.  I've been doing some research on this very thing with the very same mindset that you bring up.  After some research, I was going to start a thread in the Gospel Discussions forum.

I know, but I didn't want to lose this thought.

Lehi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Carborendum Again, relying on study Bible notes, the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

are said to come in the power and spirit of both Elijah and Moses.  So, some believe they will indeed be these two prophets, brought back at the end of time. Others speculate that they may not be literal persons, but may represent the law, given by Moses and the prophets (Elijah). Still others say that the church (especially those bold and sincere believers), who will testify of God's laws and power.

BTW, one fictional end times novel I read had one of the two witnesses as John, since Jesus had said he might not die before the 2nd coming.

So, there are lots of theories about who they might be. The most literal understanding would be that Moses and Elijah (or perhaps John the Baptist) are the two. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Both my study Bible and Zondervan's commentary say that Malachi's prophet Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist.  Luke 1:17 refers to John the Baptist and says:  And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
 

The question this raises is, how did John "turn the hearts of the fathers to the children"?

He seems to  have turned brother against brother and mother against daughter, but father to son? Not seeing it.

On the other hand, we do see John as one fulfillment of the Malachi prophecy, just as Jesus told the Apostles he did. But that isn't the ultimate fulfillment.

Lehi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Luke 1:17 says: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

So...apparently Luke did see it. :-)
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Both my study Bible and Zondervan's commentary say that Malachi's prophet Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist.  Luke 1:17 refers to John the Baptist and says:  And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Some also speculate that two prophets will come during the Great Tribulation (7-years of judgment upon the earth and the end of time), and that one of them will be Elijah.
 

This is why I felt it necessary to mention that some Catholic bibles have Malachi 4 in Malachi 3.  The split was made to differentiate the prophecies of the first coming (Malachi 3) from the prophecies of the second coming (Malachi 4).

Jesus saying that Elijah has already come was referring to the spirit of Elijah (bringing people to repentance) in John the Baptist (Malachi 3) but not about the physical coming of Elijah as stated in Malachi 4.

Edited by anatess2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Guys, I'm really not interested in getting into an argument over this.  I'm just trying to get some background because of some thoughts I've had about this topic.  So, don't shoot the messenger (PC) for giving the evangelical perspective on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Guys, I'm really not interested in getting into an argument over this.  I'm just trying to get some background because of some thoughts I've had about this topic.  So, don't shoot the messenger (PC) for giving the evangelical perspective on it.

Are you talking about my reply on PC's post?  That was not an argument.  That was a clarification of the Catholic perspective vis-a-vis the Evangelical perspective to tell YOU, the Mormon, that the Catholic split of Malachi 3 and 4 was made because of the confusion that came about the prophecy fulfilled in John the Baptist.

Edited by anatess2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just took a quick look, and yes, my Evangelical eyes do not see a sharp dispensational shift from chapter 3 to 4. The Day of Judgment and The Day of the LORD both seem to have their "strong feet" in Christ's first coming, and their other in his 2nd coming.  These are not the kind of discussions that Catholics and Evangelicals lose sleep over.  :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By the way, in Catholic teaching, the "fathers" and "children" in the prophecy refers to the OT prophets (fathers) and the Jews (children)... meaning "By bringing over the Jews to the faith of Christ, he shall reconcile them to their fathers, viz., the partiarchs and prophets; whose hearts for many ages have been turned away from them, because of their refusing to believe in Christ." (from my Duay Rhames bible's notes by Bishop Challoner).

Edited by anatess2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Luke 1:17 says: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

So...apparently Luke did see it. :-)
 

Luke, although not as much as Matthew, picked OT prophecies and applied them, correctly (I feel the need to add this), to Christ. But that does not mean they were exclusively in reference to Christ (or, in this case, His cousin). We believe, as you must*, that prophecy often has dual fulfillment, or even multiple fulfillments.
* For example, Isaiah's famous "virgin birth" prophecy: it referred initially to his own son, Maher-shalal-hashbaz, and then to Jesus Christ. Interestingly, however, neither boy was named "Immanuel".

But whether Luke saw it or not, we do not see it in the Bible.

Lehi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Both my study Bible and Zondervan's commentary say that Malachi's prophet Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist.  Luke 1:17 refers to John the Baptist and says:  And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


 

This is my understanding as well, and is what Jesus said too. Matt 11:10-15

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

This is my understanding as well, and is what Jesus said too. Matt 11:10-15

Matt 11:10-15 in Roman Catholic tradition refers to Malachi 3 as Malachi 4 refers to the 2nd coming.  This is the exegesis taught by all the Fathers - even Augustine, Aquinas, etc. - that answers the "reincarnation of Elijah into John" challenge against the Church's position of the error of the belief in reincarnation in addition to the challenge that "the price of original sin is death" as Elijah was born with original sin but did not die. Malachi 4 is a prophecy in Judicium Universale.

See here if you want references:  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm

 

Edited by anatess2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now