Ulder

Non-church life is so good. What shall i do?

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Why is it all or nothing?

These women you're meeting - how good are they for you if they're leading you away from church? 

In any case:

 

Matthew 22:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

 

Edited by tesuji

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2 hours ago, Ulder said:

 

I can't have both! At the moment i really favor the non-church life. I feel like i "deserve" it, that i'm finally not so lonely and bored anymore, i feel i have grown in many ways. My social skills have improved and i feel good about myself! 

 

Why on earth not? Sounds like you are working under a false assumption here. I can't see why the women you currently seem to be having success with can't be LDS women, and why the new friends you are making can't be LDS friends. Its time to put those newly improved social skills to better use by making good friends at church. And certainly, if you deserve it, your Father in Heaven will bless you with far more of a good life in His kingdom than outside it.

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4 hours ago, Ulder said:

I have never had much friends or much luck with women. But the past six months all that has changed!

I´m having the time of my life and i feel more confident. But this of course distacts me from church. The fact that i work nightshift and often misses church doesn't help.

I can't have both! At the moment i really favor the non-church life. I feel like i "deserve" it, that i'm finally not so lonely and bored anymore, i feel i have grown in many ways. My social skills have improved and i feel good about myself! 

But i feel like i´m living a  "double life". Do you think there is a time and place for everything, and that i should embrace this ? i know i will eventually come back to church sooner or later.

I was thinking later ... 

Why can't you be social, be confident, have fun, and be with God/church?  That is whole point of God/plan-of-salvation.  

There's only two reasons I could think of that you couldn't have both.  The first is if your fun and confidence is found in a bottle of alcohol or other drug.  If you're only becoming more social/confident because of such substance, then it's not really YOU being more fun/social/confident-- it's the drug which you have just put in the driver's seat of your life.   The other reason would be if you fun/social/confident came from pre-martial sex, which is also a short-term illusion.  

Edited by Jane_Doe

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5 hours ago, Ulder said:

I have never had much friends or much luck with women. But the past six months all that has changed!

I see that in addition to this thread, you requested to have your account deleted. This is too bad, all of it, truly.

Reading your post brings to mind a talk given by Scott Gordon, President of FAIR Mormon... he said,

Quote

I've seen a number of people leave the church, one of the things being President of FAIR people do email me, they send me their concerns, or they tell me why they have left, why I'm in a cult and all kinds of fun things. Some people, it seems, like some of the more active members get impacted if they are thinking along these lines... 
1. If we have the plan of Happiness, then why am I not happy?
2. The Church is true, unless of course I get a boyfriend...or a girlfriend
3. I just want to fit in

Those were the first couple of reasons he listed, with others that followed, BUT I find it interesting that those are the same ones you are giving too. All emotional reasons. 

I think you should ask yourself, "Why did I even post this thread? Why didn't I just silently leave? Why did I feel the need to come and express my concerns with the Members again?".

I wish you the best in your search for happiness, but believe you are emotional confused as to what actually creates true genuine lasting happiness. The doors are always open here for your return, if "later" happens. Good luck Brother!

Edited by NeedleinA

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6 hours ago, Ulder said:

I´m having the time of my life and i feel more confident. But this of course distacts me from church.

This quote is just dying for some clarification.  

Mormons: Hey everyone!  Experience the joys of dating a lot, find a good spouse to take to the temple who will complete you, enjoy constant sex and make a ton of babies and have the time of your life! 

So what are you doing that makes you distracted from church?

Edited by NeuroTypical

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6 hours ago, Ulder said:

 

But i feel like i´m living a  "double life". Do you think there is a time and place for everything, and that i should embrace this ? i know i will eventually come back to church sooner or later.

 

I know what you mean, actually.

You need to find a balance between church and your social life, in particular if your friends and family are not members. I told my bishop that I won't be able to attend all three hours or spend a lot of time in my calling because of these very things. I want to spend time with my aging family and be able to go out with my fiends while I still can. I still go out with the missionaries and go home teaching because I make time for it, and my calling is shared with about 8 other people so it's not really demanding. 

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6 hours ago, Ulder said:

But i feel like i´m living a  "double life". Do you think there is a time and place for everything, and that i should embrace this ? i know i will eventually come back to church sooner or later.

I was thinking later ... 

(Expanding my comments below)

You didn't say why you're feeling more confident/social/etc.  On this thread we've talked about sex and drugs, but I'd like to talk about other possible things.  

What if you're feeling more confident & social & having more fun because you joined a football team?  Then that's fantastic!  Football = exercise, fun, friends, confidence =  way to go!   Embrace it!

No where in the scriptures does it say "Thou shall not play football"-- you don't have to pick between them and CAN have both, each having it's time & place.   The time & place for football being the field on Saturday, and the time & place for church being the Sabbath.  

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17 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

go out with my fiends

Perhaps we should explore this a little, Gator?

To the OP: If a worldly life didn't appear shiny and glittery and fun, it wouldn't tempt us. There's a quote I like which the Internet attributes to a few differen't GA's. I'm not sure who actually said it, but I'm sure it's wisdom: "Don't give up what you want most for what you want now."

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I agree that it's tragic Ulder has decided to leave.  IMO, an illusion of conflict is something we often see before gaining more experience.  Experience teaches you how to merge things which seem to conflict, how to identify the more important things, and how to choose happiness, interest, fun, etc. etc. - President Kimball was right - if you're bored in Sacrament Meeting, it's your fault and no one else's - and the principle applies across the board of thoughts, emotions, experiences.

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6 hours ago, Ulder said:

I have never had much friends or much luck with women. But the past six months all that has changed!

I´m having the time of my life and i feel more confident. But this of course distacts me from church. The fact that i work nightshift and often misses church doesn't help.

I can't have both! At the moment i really favor the non-church life. I feel like i "deserve" it, that i'm finally not so lonely and bored anymore, i feel i have grown in many ways. My social skills have improved and i feel good about myself! 

But i feel like i´m living a  "double life". Do you think there is a time and place for everything, and that i should embrace this ? i know i will eventually come back to church sooner or later.

I was thinking later ... 

Wisdom from my father.  "A fool ends up doing in the end what a wise man start out doing from the begginning."

 

The Traveler

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6 hours ago, Ulder said:

I have never had much friends or much luck with women. But the past six months all that has changed!

I´m having the time of my life and i feel more confident. But this of course distacts me from church. The fact that i work nightshift and often misses church doesn't help.

I can't have both! At the moment i really favor the non-church life. I feel like i "deserve" it, that i'm finally not so lonely and bored anymore, i feel i have grown in many ways. My social skills have improved and i feel good about myself! 

But i feel like i´m living a  "double life". Do you think there is a time and place for everything, and that i should embrace this ? i know i will eventually come back to church sooner or later.

I was thinking later ... 

Wisdom from my father.  "A fool ends up doing in the end what a wise man start out doing from the begginning."

 

The Traveler

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Dear Ulder or anyone else in a similar Position, 

Unlike most I can be quite emphatic to your plight. The church is not an easy environment. As a convert I learned that in a 60 mph vs solid concrete wall - way. The church is a wonderful place if : You are married, with kids ( cream on top), Say yes and amen to anything that comes out of Salt Lake and managed from the start to butter up. I am not saying this as an accusation but it is a fact. As a convert I neither was born into the church nor was I in time to be on a mission. On top I happen to have the misfortune to do as I say and say as I do with the proper portion of directness and a massive lack of conceitedness. Anyhow, I don´t think you are doing wrong because you have a free agency. If you need to discover life outside the church, I do think it might be a healthy experience if you keep carrying the Lord in your heart. The experiences will actually help you to become something the Lord wants you to be, a happy person with a charitable heart towards to needy. And one can not love his neighbor without loving himself. As for the socials skills, I get you as well. Surrounding yourself with church people all day long talking about the same thing over and over will turn you into major retard. A nice one,albeit but still a retard. I know at this point writing this people will be outraged. But one can not carry the Lords good message towards the people when once is too busy committing social incest. So yes, in that regard you obtain skills and can at your leisure chose to be learn about people and if you have the courage even invite them to the gospel. 

As for dating in the church, I have never met a group of people handicapping themselves so severely like the people of this church. People objectify and exalt Return Missionaries and a fair number indeed, can be actually pigs, looking for their trophy wife that is expected to turn into a baby factory.  The whole concept is a fallacy that you are deemed worthy as a companion only AFTER you went on a mission. Never mind that there is worthy fulltime missionaries at home being good members and subjects unto the Lord, which fall through the cracks. You also will never receive love or understanding if you haven´t gone because it is expected. It turned from a conviction of faith into a rite of passage where one might even get a new car as a reward from the family ( exaggerating here a bit ). Fact is, yes it is easier to date outside because you play rules that are universally known. In the church you play with rules not revealed to you and you draw the short end in any case no matter how hard you try, you may never be enough to project status or the potential to become the the future bishop of your ward if you lack sufficient vitamin c ( connection). 

I myself as a convert went from very fun lifestyle to the even paced lifestyle I desperately needed. However, I am convinced that converts bring qualities and experiences to the church that are sorely needed but there are places where you are a member second class, at least what some "church nobility" inborn - pioneer super mormons would have you believe. The Lords does not care for status or sanctimonious airs, he cares about that you are happy and loved. And you are loved. I would like for you to remember that. Dating in the church is a soul crushing experience if you happen to be an outsider and in some instances one ought rather pet a rabid shark than step out on to field where you get measured by what you aren´t and not by what you are. 

For any critics out there, I would like to remind you that I have a covenant with the Lord and not its people. I also happen to contribute whatever I can give to the Lords cause and received a tremendous blessing in form of my wife. All that mess I had to wade through makes me appreciate her sharing her life with me on a daily basis. We distinct between cultural mormons and faithful mormons. We are the latter kind because the former kind is too busy being something else. 

Some people tend to forget that there is also the bible and not just the book of mormon. But it tends to still hold good classics. This is my recommendation of what kind of woman you might want to look for, while it is also acknowledging praise to our sisters. 

Proverbs 31: 10 - 31 

I can invite you only to exercise your good judgement and agency and let the Lord guide your hands. You should disregard judgement that aims to stifle you in your quest for happiness while taking heed to good advise. First and foremost you are a child of god and again: You are loved! No matter what everyone else thinks of you. 

I will end this lengthy post in the hope that I may have consoled you a bit and encourage you to make your own mark and find your own place in the world around you. Fortune passes everywhere if you but grasp it. My dear brother, from the bottom of the heart, I pray that the Lord will give you what you need but not what you want. There is a difference in that. 

My wife and I give our love to you and wish you to be well. 

 

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On August 2, 2016 at 6:34 PM, Hemisphere said:

Dear Ulder or anyone else in a similar Position, 

Unlike most I can be quite emphatic to your plight. The church is not an easy environment. As a convert I learned that in a 60 mph vs solid concrete wall - way. The church is a wonderful place if : You are married, with kids ( cream on top), Say yes and amen to anything that comes out of Salt Lake and managed from the start to butter up. I am not saying this as an accusation but it is a fact. As a convert I neither was born into the church nor was I in time to be on a mission. On top I happen to have the misfortune to do as I say and say as I do with the proper portion of directness and a massive lack of conceitedness. Anyhow, I don´t think you are doing wrong because you have a free agency. If you need to discover life outside the church, I do think it might be a healthy experience if you keep carrying the Lord in your heart. The experiences will actually help you to become something the Lord wants you to be, a happy person with a charitable heart towards to needy. And one can not love his neighbor without loving himself. As for the socials skills, I get you as well. Surrounding yourself with church people all day long talking about the same thing over and over will turn you into major retard. A nice one,albeit but still a retard. I know at this point writing this people will be outraged. But one can not carry the Lords good message towards the people when once is too busy committing social incest. So yes, in that regard you obtain skills and can at your leisure chose to be learn about people and if you have the courage even invite them to the gospel. 

As for dating in the church, I have never met a group of people handicapping themselves so severely like the people of this church. People objectify and exalt Return Missionaries and a fair number indeed, can be actually pigs, looking for their trophy wife that is expected to turn into a baby factory.  The whole concept is a fallacy that you are deemed worthy as a companion only AFTER you went on a mission. Never mind that there is worthy fulltime missionaries at home being good members and subjects unto the Lord, which fall through the cracks. You also will never receive love or understanding if you haven´t gone because it is expected. It turned from a conviction of faith into a rite of passage where one might even get a new car as a reward from the family ( exaggerating here a bit ). Fact is, yes it is easier to date outside because you play rules that are universally known. In the church you play with rules not revealed to you and you draw the short end in any case no matter how hard you try, you may never be enough to project status or the potential to become the the future bishop of your ward if you lack sufficient vitamin c ( connection). 

I myself as a convert went from very fun lifestyle to the even paced lifestyle I desperately needed. However, I am convinced that converts bring qualities and experiences to the church that are sorely needed but there are places where you are a member second class, at least what some "church nobility" inborn - pioneer super mormons would have you believe. The Lords does not care for status or sanctimonious airs, he cares about that you are happy and loved. And you are loved. I would like for you to remember that. Dating in the church is a soul crushing experience if you happen to be an outsider and in some instances one ought rather pet a rabid shark than step out on to field where you get measured by what you aren´t and not by what you are. 

For any critics out there, I would like to remind you that I have a covenant with the Lord and not its people. I also happen to contribute whatever I can give to the Lords cause and received a tremendous blessing in form of my wife. All that mess I had to wade through makes me appreciate her sharing her life with me on a daily basis. We distinct between cultural mormons and faithful mormons. We are the latter kind because the former kind is too busy being something else. 

Some people tend to forget that there is also the bible and not just the book of mormon. But it tends to still hold good classics. This is my recommendation of what kind of woman you might want to look for, while it is also acknowledging praise to our sisters. 

Proverbs 31: 10 - 31 

I can invite you only to exercise your good judgement and agency and let the Lord guide your hands. You should disregard judgement that aims to stifle you in your quest for happiness while taking heed to good advise. First and foremost you are a child of god and again: You are loved! No matter what everyone else thinks of you. 

I will end this lengthy post in the hope that I may have consoled you a bit and encourage you to make your own mark and find your own place in the world around you. Fortune passes everywhere if you but grasp it. My dear brother, from the bottom of the heart, I pray that the Lord will give you what you need but not what you want. There is a difference in that. 

My wife and I give our love to you and wish you to be well. 

 

  AMEN. This is beautiful. I love this.

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On August 2, 2016 at 6:34 PM, Hemisphere said:

Dear Ulder or anyone else in a similar Position, 

Unlike most I can be quite emphatic to your plight. The church is not an easy environment. As a convert I learned that in a 60 mph vs solid concrete wall - way. The church is a wonderful place if : You are married, with kids ( cream on top), Say yes and amen to anything that comes out of Salt Lake and managed from the start to butter up. I am not saying this as an accusation but it is a fact. As a convert I neither was born into the church nor was I in time to be on a mission. On top I happen to have the misfortune to do as I say and say as I do with the proper portion of directness and a massive lack of conceitedness. Anyhow, I don´t think you are doing wrong because you have a free agency. If you need to discover life outside the church, I do think it might be a healthy experience if you keep carrying the Lord in your heart. The experiences will actually help you to become something the Lord wants you to be, a happy person with a charitable heart towards to needy. And one can not love his neighbor without loving himself. As for the socials skills, I get you as well. Surrounding yourself with church people all day long talking about the same thing over and over will turn you into major retard. A nice one,albeit but still a retard. I know at this point writing this people will be outraged. But one can not carry the Lords good message towards the people when once is too busy committing social incest. So yes, in that regard you obtain skills and can at your leisure chose to be learn about people and if you have the courage even invite them to the gospel. 

As for dating in the church, I have never met a group of people handicapping themselves so severely like the people of this church. People objectify and exalt Return Missionaries and a fair number indeed, can be actually pigs, looking for their trophy wife that is expected to turn into a baby factory.  The whole concept is a fallacy that you are deemed worthy as a companion only AFTER you went on a mission. Never mind that there is worthy fulltime missionaries at home being good members and subjects unto the Lord, which fall through the cracks. You also will never receive love or understanding if you haven´t gone because it is expected. It turned from a conviction of faith into a rite of passage where one might even get a new car as a reward from the family ( exaggerating here a bit ). Fact is, yes it is easier to date outside because you play rules that are universally known. In the church you play with rules not revealed to you and you draw the short end in any case no matter how hard you try, you may never be enough to project status or the potential to become the the future bishop of your ward if you lack sufficient vitamin c ( connection). 

I myself as a convert went from very fun lifestyle to the even paced lifestyle I desperately needed. However, I am convinced that converts bring qualities and experiences to the church that are sorely needed but there are places where you are a member second class, at least what some "church nobility" inborn - pioneer super mormons would have you believe. The Lords does not care for status or sanctimonious airs, he cares about that you are happy and loved. And you are loved. I would like for you to remember that. Dating in the church is a soul crushing experience if you happen to be an outsider and in some instances one ought rather pet a rabid shark than step out on to field where you get measured by what you aren´t and not by what you are. 

For any critics out there, I would like to remind you that I have a covenant with the Lord and not its people. I also happen to contribute whatever I can give to the Lords cause and received a tremendous blessing in form of my wife. All that mess I had to wade through makes me appreciate her sharing her life with me on a daily basis. We distinct between cultural mormons and faithful mormons. We are the latter kind because the former kind is too busy being something else. 

Some people tend to forget that there is also the bible and not just the book of mormon. But it tends to still hold good classics. This is my recommendation of what kind of woman you might want to look for, while it is also acknowledging praise to our sisters. 

Proverbs 31: 10 - 31 

I can invite you only to exercise your good judgement and agency and let the Lord guide your hands. You should disregard judgement that aims to stifle you in your quest for happiness while taking heed to good advise. First and foremost you are a child of god and again: You are loved! No matter what everyone else thinks of you. 

I will end this lengthy post in the hope that I may have consoled you a bit and encourage you to make your own mark and find your own place in the world around you. Fortune passes everywhere if you but grasp it. My dear brother, from the bottom of the heart, I pray that the Lord will give you what you need but not what you want. There is a difference in that. 

My wife and I give our love to you and wish you to be well. 

 

  AMEN. This is beautiful. I love this.

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I do understand that many have difficulty adjusting to the LDS (Mormon) culture.  I am a 5th generation Mormon and have always loved both the Church and the members.  Both are dear to me.  But I have had struggles.  I joined the military during the Vietnam era at the age of 17 because of a special release program that would allow me to serve a mission when I turned 19.  The problem I had was that when I returned from my mission and completed my military service I had lost many of my military friends from combat.  Several that had joined the Church.  The sorrow I felt for my fallen comrades was made worse because this was an era of disrespect for those that served in the military.  I was also somewhat upset because while serving in the military – I observed a great deal of incompetence – especially among the commissioned officers.  Most deaths in combat are the result of incompetence.

What was also difficult for me was the fantasy that seemed so prevalent among the single ladies at BYU.  I was so bitter I could not connect and seldom dated a lady more than once or twice.  But worse – I did not treat the ladies with much respect.  I found joy in berating and pointing out their flaws.  Besides the ladies there were a lot of returned missionaries that were draft dodgers and cared little for those that had lost their lives in service.  I thought it my responsibility to put them all in their place.

It took a while but slowly I learned that the bitterness was something inside of me – no one treated me bitterly other than to respond to my bitterness.  We can make excuses for our bitterness that can be argued inside us to be justified but the truth is that when there is bitterness it is our heart that is the problem.  By nature it seems to me that few bother with serious thinking or actual discipline.  But the lack of thoughtfulness and discipline in others is no reason – ever – to abandon thoughtfulness and discipline ourself.

 

The Traveler

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I do understand that many have difficulty adjusting to the LDS (Mormon) culture.  I am a 5th generation Mormon and have always loved both the Church and the members.  Both are dear to me.  But I have had struggles.  I joined the military during the Vietnam era at the age of 17 because of a special release program that would allow me to serve a mission when I turned 19.  The problem I had was that when I returned from my mission and completed my military service I had lost many of my military friends from combat.  Several that had joined the Church.  The sorrow I felt for my fallen comrades was made worse because this was an era of disrespect for those that served in the military.  I was also somewhat upset because while serving in the military – I observed a great deal of incompetence – especially among the commissioned officers.  Most deaths in combat are the result of incompetence.

What was also difficult for me was the fantasy that seemed so prevalent among the single ladies at BYU.  I was so bitter I could not connect and seldom dated a lady more than once or twice.  But worse – I did not treat the ladies with much respect.  I found joy in berating and pointing out their flaws.  Besides the ladies there were a lot of returned missionaries that were draft dodgers and cared little for those that had lost their lives in service.  I thought it my responsibility to put them all in their place.

It took a while but slowly I learned that the bitterness was something inside of me – no one treated me bitterly other than to respond to my bitterness.  We can make excuses for our bitterness that can be argued inside us to be justified but the truth is that when there is bitterness it is our heart that is the problem.  By nature it seems to me that few bother with serious thinking or actual discipline.  But the lack of thoughtfulness and discipline in others is no reason – ever – to abandon thoughtfulness and discipline ourself.

 

The Traveler

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6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 I joined the military during the Vietnam era at the age of 17 because of a special release program that would allow me to serve a mission when I turned 19. 

Traveler, thank you very much for your service to the country. 

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20 hours ago, bytebear said:

Can't you do both?  Go to church and have a fun social life. I thought that's what single wards were for.

that would preclude that the single ward would be welcoming and loving and if you are already not really in the fray there ... what good is it then ? 

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I do understand that many have difficulty adjusting to the LDS (Mormon) culture.  I am a 5th generation Mormon and have always loved both the Church and the members.  Both are dear to me.  But I have had struggles.  I joined the military during the Vietnam era at the age of 17 because of a special release program that would allow me to serve a mission when I turned 19.  The problem I had was that when I returned from my mission and completed my military service I had lost many of my military friends from combat.  Several that had joined the Church.  The sorrow I felt for my fallen comrades was made worse because this was an era of disrespect for those that served in the military.  I was also somewhat upset because while serving in the military – I observed a great deal of incompetence – especially among the commissioned officers.  Most deaths in combat are the result of incompetence.

What was also difficult for me was the fantasy that seemed so prevalent among the single ladies at BYU.  I was so bitter I could not connect and seldom dated a lady more than once or twice.  But worse – I did not treat the ladies with much respect.  I found joy in berating and pointing out their flaws.  Besides the ladies there were a lot of returned missionaries that were draft dodgers and cared little for those that had lost their lives in service.  I thought it my responsibility to put them all in their place.

It took a while but slowly I learned that the bitterness was something inside of me – no one treated me bitterly other than to respond to my bitterness.  We can make excuses for our bitterness that can be argued inside us to be justified but the truth is that when there is bitterness it is our heart that is the problem.  By nature it seems to me that few bother with serious thinking or actual discipline.  But the lack of thoughtfulness and discipline in others is no reason – ever – to abandon thoughtfulness and discipline ourself.

 

The Traveler

I am not American but I do admire and respect your civic virtue and your determination to serve your homeland, regardless what you were facing. I can only gingerly fathom what it must have been like to be the exception of having served twice in a secular and also in a spiritual way and making great sacrifices while being disregarded at home. 

Know this, I have nothing but respect as I can accept this more than a missionary who simply goes because it is to him a bothersome tradition for a rite of passage. You have my admiration and my appreciation to be just that: a good man and a responsible citizen to your homelands. 

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Just be sure you're not going into things with a big chip on your shoulder. No one wants to hug a cactus. 

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