Virtual Reality verses Reality

[Traveler]

I have read a number of articles about virtual reality verses reality that suggest that what we think is real is just a very good virtual reality.  I have thought this to be somewhat silly until recently I was invited to view and use new virtual reality technology.  I was very amazed.  What is coming with new virtual reality is going to change the gaming industry as well as pornography.  Currently the new technology is intended to target marketing.  Another possible application of this new stuff would allow a visitor at temple square to stroll through the temple in much more detail than is currently experienced at temple open houses. 

But this thread is not about the good and bad a virtual reality (VR) but how the technology is already getting so advanced – it is difficult to realize what is real and what is not - VR is capable of utilizing real walls to create virtual barriers.  What is so strange is that you can walk through most walls and then suddenly there is a wall you can’t because it is a real wall outside of VR – really weird.

The point of VR verses reality – is that it is much easier and economical to create a VR universe and set parameters than to create the real thing.  So here is a thought – Did G-d create our physical circumstance as a virtual reality?  I do not think it is possible, with current technology and science, to actually know.  And I see a lot of possibilities in scripture that what we think is our universe – is not as real as we may think.

 

The Traveler

[Awakened]

To quote the late and great Morpheus, how do you define "real?" How many subatomic particles must we find before we finally agree that our reality is real? Anyway. I think the most real thing in this world is how we interact with and affect others. Because that is what will truly last when we all inevitably die. So technically, in that sense, no, our world isn't "real", but our choices with others very much are.

Unless you want to reallllyyy start questioning stuff and get into Plato's The Cave. In which case, I would have the greatest sympathy for you if you did because that line of reasoning can only go so far before you hit a very final dead end which is, there's no way at all to find out and speculation is utterly pointless and we need to just do the best with what we're given.

[james12]

What we call reality is simply what we perceive with our senses. If one can fool seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, and finally thinking, then there is almost no way to tell the difference between reality and some virtual reality. I believe that is exactly what we find here in the mortal realm. As evidence, take the fact that the spirit world is here on the earth, yet we cannot perceive it. We are at best living in a partial reality. But we should not think that this world is meaningless, or that what we do doesn't matter. After all, we believe that this earth must be transformed (not done away with) and become the celestial kingdom, a sea of glass as Joseph said. 

In many ways, spirituality is about taping into other realities we cannot see or perceive with our five senses. Our spirit has a depth and understanding beyond the physical. When we tune in, we begin to further perceive these other realities. This perception not only change our understanding about what is around us, but ultimately about who we are.  

[CV75]

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

The point of VR verses reality – is that it is much easier and economical to create a VR universe and set parameters than to create the real thing.  So here is a thought – Did G-d create our physical circumstance as a virtual reality?  I do not think it is possible, with current technology and science, to actually know.  And I see a lot of possibilities in scripture that what we think is our universe – is not as real as we may think.

Alma 32 defines what is real, so it doesn't matter how we obtain or secure that reality. But we do take it on faith that God does not lie when He says He created all things spiritually before they were naturally (not virtually!) upon the face of the earth. A virtual resurrection is not what the Lord said He performed.

[tesuji]

19 hours ago, Traveler said:

And I see a lot of possibilities in scripture that what we think is our universe – is not as real as we may think.

I need your scripture quotes!!

Fascinating topic

[Traveler]

23 hours ago, tesuji said:

I need your scripture quotes!!

Fascinating topic

Some examples - scriptures that deal with the possibility:

1 - Physically minded is death -- spiritually minded is life.

2 - All things are possible to those that believe

3 - We live by faith

There are also scriptures that would seem to indicate that the empirical universe is not virtual.  One possible purpose of this thread is to create thinking and the possibility that we may not know as much as we think we know – especially understanding things we are told in scripture.  Not that anyone should doubt but consider adding to our reservoir of understanding.  

I have thought somewhat concerning this matter and I find the possibilities very interesting – I thought others would add ideas and impressions.  But for many reasons – I wonder as others have wondered – what is real and what is true?

 

The Traveler

[Blackmarch]

On 8/4/2016 at 1:35 PM, Traveler said:

I have read a number of articles about virtual reality verses reality that suggest that what we think is real is just a very good virtual reality.  I have thought this to be somewhat silly until recently I was invited to view and use new virtual reality technology.  I was very amazed.  What is coming with new virtual reality is going to change the gaming industry as well as pornography.  Currently the new technology is intended to target marketing.  Another possible application of this new stuff would allow a visitor at temple square to stroll through the temple in much more detail than is currently experienced at temple open houses. 

But this thread is not about the good and bad a virtual reality (VR) but how the technology is already getting so advanced – it is difficult to realize what is real and what is not - VR is capable of utilizing real walls to create virtual barriers.  What is so strange is that you can walk through most walls and then suddenly there is a wall you can’t because it is a real wall outside of VR – really weird.

The point of VR verses reality – is that it is much easier and economical to create a VR universe and set parameters than to create the real thing.  So here is a thought – Did G-d create our physical circumstance as a virtual reality?  I do not think it is possible, with current technology and science, to actually know.  And I see a lot of possibilities in scripture that what we think is our universe – is not as real as we may think.

 

The Traveler

If so, I think i'd go with Tealc's view from Stargate - then it is ours that only matters.

 

[tesuji]

On 8/6/2016 at 9:14 AM, Traveler said:

Some examples - scriptures that deal with the possibility:

1 - Physically minded is death -- spiritually minded is life.

2 - All things are possible to those that believe

3 - We live by faith

There are also scriptures that would seem to indicate that the empirical universe is not virtual.  One possible purpose of this thread is to create thinking and the possibility that we may not know as much as we think we know – especially understanding things we are told in scripture.  Not that anyone should doubt but consider adding to our reservoir of understanding.  

I have thought somewhat concerning this matter and I find the possibilities very interesting – I thought others would add ideas and impressions.  But for many reasons – I wonder as others have wondered – what is real and what is true?

 

The Traveler

From the scriptures you've quoted so far, I don't see anything that indicates to me that our world is virtual.

However, to your other point --

I certainly think we (and I) don't know as much as we think we do. We must be like infants compared to God.

Part of the problem is I think that just to function, our brains have to construct a worldview, to make sense of what we see around us. This initial worldview is created when we're children, so it's going to be lacking. Careful attention, education and the Holy Spirit are needed to improve this worldview as we get older.

We also all get only limited input, a small subset of reality, to inform our worldviews. The current social media political echo chambers are a great example. Facebook only shows stuff that it knows you already like and believe. But also necessarily, because I occupy only one point in space, I don't see what's going on in most of the cosmos.

Also, our senses are limited. We only see a narrow range of the EM spectrum, for example. Who knows what's going on around us that we can't even see, just because it's not at the right EM frequency?

What is reality? Will we ever see a "real" reality, or will we just keep constructing over more acccurate mental models of it? I imagine God sees "real" reality, but who knows.

One of the things that's fascinating about Mormonism is that we believe in the supernatural. I don't mean ghosts, ESP, and such, not necessarily.

What I mean is that we believe there is a wider, hidden reality. That there is a world beyond, above this natural one ("nature" - the material world, especially as surrounding humankind and existing independently of human activities.) 

Spirit is just another type of matter, but more refined that we can't see. God and angels travel somehow through the universe, apparently faster than the speed of light. Time is a thing only for this mortal life. The Light of Christ emanates from God and somehow through this medium he sees, communicates with, and controls all his creation. Hyrum Andrus says God inhabits the universe like a hand in a glove, not physically, but his mind, awareness, and control are present everywhere.

This is all mind blowing stuff, way beyond what our current physicists and psychologists understand.

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by tesuji

[Traveler]

6 hours ago, tesuji said:

From the scriptures you've quoted so far, I don't see anything that indicates to me that our world is virtual.

......

 

It is all in “possible” interpretations and understanding.  For example if we assume that multiple universes or multiple kingdom can exist in the same “space” one certain possibility is that the multiple universes are virtual overlays.  Thus it could be that all kingdoms of Glory occupy the same actual space but differ from the virtual principles that govern any particular experience.  In this manner one could understand the “True” reality to be Celestial and other kingdoms to be a virtual copy (subset) of the Celestial reality.   An ancient way of describing this difference or reality could be to reference one as “life” and others a “death” or separation from the presents of the reality of G-d.

Please understand that I am not trying to demand that this is doctrine or the way that scriptures must or should be understood – just as a possibility.   A reason that those in higher kingdoms could be aware and observe those in lower kingdoms but those in the lower kingdoms could not be aware of those in higher kingdoms unless given special “windows” are opened to the lower virtual levels.  I will not go into all the reasons this is possible because I do not want to give the impression that I am trying to sell the idea.  But it does provide some nifty possibilities as to why certain things may be the way they are.

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is all in “possible” interpretations and understanding.  For example if we assume that multiple universes or multiple kingdom can exist in the same “space” one certain possibility is that the multiple universes are virtual overlays.  Thus it could be that all kingdoms of Glory occupy the same actual space but differ from the virtual principles that govern any particular experience.  In this manner one could understand the “True” reality to be Celestial and other kingdoms to be a virtual copy (subset) of the Celestial reality.   An ancient way of describing this difference or reality could be to reference one as “life” and others a “death” or separation from the presents of the reality of G-d.

Please understand that I am not trying to demand that this is doctrine or the way that scriptures must or should be understood – just as a possibility.   A reason that those in higher kingdoms could be aware and observe those in lower kingdoms but those in the lower kingdoms could not be aware of those in higher kingdoms unless given special “windows” are opened to the lower virtual levels.  I will not go into all the reasons this is possible because I do not want to give the impression that I am trying to sell the idea.  But it does provide some nifty possibilities as to why certain things may be the way they are.

 

The Traveler

Something that might support this idea 1 Corinthans 15:40... Paul talks about the levels of Glory... But he does it using the resurrection and our bodies.  This leads some to question the idea of the kingdoms being a location... rather then a state.  If the Kingdoms/degrees of Glory are a state of being... then the interaction could be much like the interaction of the physical world and the spirit world.  We don't understand that interaction much either but it opens up the idea that a Celestial being could be in the presence of all their loved ones even those in lesser kingdoms...  But those in the lesser kingdoms couldn't sense it.

[FogCity]

interesting topic, but too deep for my simple mind.  However, this story/scripture immediately came to mind as I was reading this topic. 

Quote

 

Ether 3:6

6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

 

things that make you go hmmmmm

In this instance, you could argue that the brother of Jared was in reality, while the rest of the world at that time was in an altered reality.

[tesuji]

It's interesting to speculate. I personally expect God's reality to be something we haven't even imagined yet. 

The whole multiverse idea strikes me as a false idea, but what do I know. The same with the idea that we're just living in a simulation, or a hologram, or other such recent ideas from physics. But what do I know.

We don't even know how much we don't know and our senses are so limited, I'm not sure we can even imagine. We can't even perceive spirit matter.

Edited August 8, 2016 by tesuji