Is post mortal death an option?

[zil]

Now, on a purely theoretical note, our ignorant imaginations might want to say: "Well, maybe immortality is a choice.  Maybe I can simply choose to cease being immortal, and thereby cease existing."

But it defies logic.  If it were possible to cease being conscious of ourselves, we would not be immortal.  There would have to be a flaw or mechanism which allowed cessation, something to sever our consciousness from the matter of which we are made.  The matter could go back to base elements, but where would our consciousness go?  How, pray tell, could a consciousness unthink itself?

"OK, I'm going to stop thinking now, and thereby cease."  (There are a few mortals who would accidentally cease their immortal existence were this an option )

or "OK, I'm going to think my own destruction." (Isn't the act of thinking continuing your existence?  How does an act of existence cause an end of existence?)

or "OK, I'm going to think the magic word that ends me."  (How did you learn the magic word / method without thinking it and thereby killing yourself in the learning of how to kill yourself?  How did the person who taught you teach you without killing themselves?  OK, we could imagine some combination of things which could be taught separately and only work when done simultaneously, but really?  I think we're stretching our readers' ability to suspend disbelief.)

It defies logic.  And if that thing which allows cessation of an otherwise immortal being existed, and the being knew it, every other being would know it.   (If they didn't, where did the one who knew it learn it?)   And, by definition, an omniscient being would know how to use it, and could thereby end the existence of another immortal - thus making said other immortal not so immortal - said other immortal (indeed, all of them) would be subject to death (cessation of existence).

See?  There are too many plot holes.  Until / unless we can plug all those holes and come up with a logical scenario in which the existence of an immortal could be terminated without defying the meaning of "immortal", we cannot write this story - our readers would skewer us!  (And yes, this is very much the same process as coming up with the foundation for a fictional story.)

As for reality, that scripture kinda clinches it.

[LeSellers]

10 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Will they again be able to choose death (as in the permanent discontinuation of life and consciousness) over life, and be able to implement that decision?

No. death, as you define it, cannot occur. There was no beginning to our existences, and there will be no end.

10 hours ago, askandanswer said:

If they are not able to do so, is that a reduction in their ability to choose?

If the options A, B, and C are before you, you can legitimately choose among them. But if "C" is only imaginary, is it reasonable to claim that your options are limited? Makes no sense to me.

10 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Are they condemned to live out an eternity that they might not want?

The premise is faulty. What on earth (or what in infinity) could lead anyone to imagine that anything in immortality, to which he had been assigned based on its being what would make him happiest, would be undesirable?

Lehi

Edited August 8, 2016 by LeSellers

[Traveler]

@askandanswer 

One reason to desire death is an escape from reality.   Some methods currently in use in mortal life are – substance abuse or even pretend (mental) adjustments.  You may want to consider my recent post in the virtual reality thread.  There may be ways to escape reality.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

@askandanswer 

One reason to desire death is an escape from reality.   Some methods currently in use in mortal life are – substance abuse or even pretend (mental) adjustments.  You may want to consider my recent post in the virtual reality thread.  There may be ways to escape reality.

 

The Traveler

[Edspringer]

I`d like to add some personal insights to the comments of LeSellers and Zil about being happy in a kingdom of glory:

 

In 2 Nephi 2:25 we read that “men are that they might have joy”. Happiness is the very core of the reason a plan was design by our Heavenly Father, as His work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). That being said, we need to understand that, except the sons of perdition, all children of Heavenly Father will be saved in a degree of glory, as stated before. This means happiness, for no one can have the fullness of joy without a body (D&C 93:33-34). Those who will inherit the Celestial Kingdom will be able to receive the fullness of the blessings of the Father (D&C 93:20,27;132:19 ). Those who will inherit the other kingdoms (terrestrial and telestial) will receive the fullness of those kingdoms (D&C 88:30-31). So, happiness will be in all kingdoms, but only in the Celestial Glory the fullness of joy will be found.

 

Now, concerning the power to decide to live on or not after the resurrection:

 

1) Our bodies are gifts from our Heavenly Father and constitute part of our obedience in the pre-mortal world. Though we can’t recall, we all decided to come down to earth and were happy with the idea of having a body like Heavenly Father. Without a body, our spirt could not progress. Regardless of the importance of our bodies for our eternal progression, it is known to us that diseases and all kinds of mental and physical challenges would afflict us because of the flesh. Depression and the desire to die are bound to the body, not to the spirt.

 

2) Death, though part of the plan, is not meant to linger. Because of the Fall, death was introduced into the world, but because of the perfect atonement of Jesus Christ, all children of Heavenly Father that had, has or will have a body will be able to come forth from the grave and reunite with his/her spirit to separate no more;

 

3) Amulek teaches us that the same spirt that possessed out bodies will have power to possess them after the resurrection (Alma 34:34). What will give and maintain life after the resurrection will be the spirt, not blood. It indicates that our spirits will have power over death (for they are eternal). It also indicates that through pre-mortal, mortal and post-mortal experiences our spirits were added knowledge, light, glory. Jacob tells us that our knowledge in the resurrection will be perfect (2 Nephi 9:13-14). It means that there won’t be veil of forgetfulness anymore. All knowledge we once possessed in all stages of progress will be restored to us and will qualify us for the kingdoms of glory, whatever they may be. Plus, our bodies won’t experiment corruption anymore (Alma 11:45; 12:18).

 

So I believe that there won’t be a desire to quit life. Our understanding of God’s plan will be perfect and we will surely be glad with our inheritance. Those who will inherit any kingdom of glory will still be God’s children and will enjoy their inheritance. People will enjoy working, learning and serving in the kingdoms of glory. There won’t be ‘nothing to do’ in Heaven.

 

Now, as we won’t be told the details of the Outer Darkness, it is hard to know how life will be like there, except that it will be like a lake of fire and brimstone (see D&C 76:31-38). Still it will be life.

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Edspringer
misspelled words

[tesuji]

On August 7, 2016 at 11:11 PM, NightSG said:

But what about pigs?

 

I mean, if it's so wonderful there, there must be bacon there, and that's generally not terribly pleasant for the pig.  It would have to be agony for a pig that can't die.  Or do they like being dismantled, smoked and fried there?

The answer: replicator machines like in Star Trek

[tesuji]

Everything I know about gospel doctrine says that we are immortal, and that our next life will be joyful. God will give us as much joy as we were willing to allow him to, determined by our level of obedience.

In the short term we may have to suffer until we pay for sins, if we don't repent. 

So no one is going to cease to exist, and ultimately no one will want to.

Those in outer darkness may be some kind of exception. We don't know much about them, and I hope none of us find out... It's very hard to go there, luckily

Edited August 9, 2016 by tesuji

[askandanswer]

14 hours ago, zil said:

Now, on a purely theoretical note, our ignorant imaginations might want to say: "Well, maybe immortality is a choice.  Maybe I can simply choose to cease being immortal, and thereby cease existing."

But it defies logic.  If it were possible to cease being conscious of ourselves, we would not be immortal.  There would have to be a flaw or mechanism which allowed cessation, something to sever our consciousness from the matter of which we are made.  The matter could go back to base elements, but where would our consciousness go?  How, pray tell, could a consciousness unthink itself?

"OK, I'm going to stop thinking now, and thereby cease."  (There are a few mortals who would accidentally cease their immortal existence were this an option )

or "OK, I'm going to think my own destruction." (Isn't the act of thinking continuing your existence?  How does an act of existence cause an end of existence?)

or "OK, I'm going to think the magic word that ends me."  (How did you learn the magic word / method without thinking it and thereby killing yourself in the learning of how to kill yourself?  How did the person who taught you teach you without killing themselves?  OK, we could imagine some combination of things which could be taught separately and only work when done simultaneously, but really?  I think we're stretching our readers' ability to suspend disbelief.)

It defies logic.  And if that thing which allows cessation of an otherwise immortal being existed, and the being knew it, every other being would know it.   (If they didn't, where did the one who knew it learn it?)   And, by definition, an omniscient being would know how to use it, and could thereby end the existence of another immortal - thus making said other immortal not so immortal - said other immortal (indeed, all of them) would be subject to death (cessation of existence).

See?  There are too many plot holes.  Until / unless we can plug all those holes and come up with a logical scenario in which the existence of an immortal could be terminated without defying the meaning of "immortal", we cannot write this story - our readers would skewer us!  (And yes, this is very much the same process as coming up with the foundation for a fictional story.)

As for reality, that scripture kinda clinches it.

Thank you Zil, it looks like this answers my questions pretty well. Much appreciated.

[zil]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Thank you Zil, it looks like this answers my questions pretty well. Much appreciated.

When I allow myself to depart from reality (the truth as we know it from scripture, prophets, revelation, etc.), I'm pretty good at exploring an idea to find out whether it would work...

Meanwhile, FWIW, I tripped over Alma 42:9, 16 this morning in my scripture study - the soul can never die (in this case, "soul" appears to mean our spirits, and not the resurrected body & spirit together).

[tesuji]

I ran across a great talk by Neal Maxwell today, which included this quote. We kept our first estate (siding with God in the war in heaven) and so he gave us this second estate (mortal life). We can't reject this now that we're in the middle of it:

Quote

In some ways, our second estate, in relationship to our first estate, is like agreeing in advance to surgery. Then the anesthetic of forgetfulness settles in upon us.

Just as doctors do not de-anesthetize a patient in the midst of authorized surgery to ask him again if the surgery should be continued, so, after divine tutoring, we agreed to come here and to submit ourselves to certain experiences; it was an irrevocable decision.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/02/a-more-determined-discipleship?lang=eng

 

[tesuji]

(duplicate deleted)

Edited August 9, 2016 by tesuji

[Blueskye2]

On 8/7/2016 at 6:16 PM, askandanswer said:

I can imagine a resurrected being, in the telestial kingdom or in outer darkness, being unhappy at the thought of facing an eternity of damnation, whereby their prospects for progress and their ability to meet with their loved ones in higher kingdoms are eternally limited. In such a hopeless and unhappy situation, such a being might decide that there is no point in continuing their existence. This does not seem like an unrealistic scenario given how frequently it happens here and now. But even if it is unrealistic, or unlikely, does that being then the choice, or the ability, to end their unhappiness by ending their existence? If they can end their existence and commit suicide, would that rob justice because they have escaped their eternal punishment? If they can’t end their existence, and are forced to continue living against their will, is that denying them one of the most important choices provided by free agency – the right to choose whether to live or not? Who wins – justice or agency? The church teaches that after this life, there will be no more death and that the body and spirit will be eternally joined together. If that is true, then it would seem that a resurrected being would not have the ability to choose to end their eternal existence. Perhaps agency loses out to justice. Or perhaps, when formulating the teaching that there will be no death after this life, the formulators or promulgators of that teaching did not give any consideration to the possibility of post mortal suicide.

 

I don’t have a particular position on this question and I’m not saying that I believe or disbelieve any of the speculation or assumptions contained in the above question. I also don’t see a discussion of this question as resulting in any immediate, practical outcomes, or any direct outcomes that are likely to have any impact on how we should be living our daily lives. However, I think there is a reasonable possibility that a good discussion of this question could lead to a greater understanding of God, and His laws and operations, and that would certainly be a good thing.

 

I'm not LDS, but I see a similar question asked in regards to hell. ie, wouldn't it be better for God to destroy then to allow hell.

It is a similar answer for both, I think, in the concept of free will (though it has differences between religious teachings, which is another topic  ). Anyway! Hell is a choice that is made in this life. Either one chooses to serve God, according to their understanding of who God is, or, they choose to not serve God. So, the problem I see with your scenario is one of wanting your cake and eating it to. Atheists and unrepentant sinners, willfully reject God, but want the graces that come with serving God. Or, another analogy I've seen is, if you choose to kill your parents, you've made yourself an orphan. It isn't an outside force (God) that has made you an orphan, it is a consequence of your choices and actions.

Hell then (or lower kingdoms and outer darkness) are a choice, made using the gift of free will that God has given us. If you don't want the consequences, then don't take the actions (or lack of action) that lead to the consequences. It is your choice.

Beyond that, I see this "solution" of destruction, as denying God's sovereignty. Our lives are His, not ours. We are created by Him. He had no obligation to create us. God desires that we LIVE. God has never revealed a desire for our death. He's gone to extreme lengths to bring us to everlasting life. A Son, nailed to a Cross, who died! What more do people want?? He has given us all we need, and provides all the graces for each person, to attain heaven! It is rejecting what God has done, that removes us from His presence. HE does not remove us from His presence, we remove ourselves.

Further, He created us with a desire for us to align our will to His, aka, righteousness. This is why we have free will, in order to freely follow God. We neither merit our own creation or our own death. We are gifted with the ability to choose to follow God, or not. Both have consequences, and thinking, "I do what I want", and then thinking, "well crap, I did what I want now I want God to do what I want and just destroy me", is just a furthering of the initial problem. That of, following one's own desires and rejecting God.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Blueskye2

[Jane_Doe]

On August 7, 2016 at 6:16 PM, askandanswer said:

I can imagine a resurrected being, in the telestial kingdom or in outer darkness, being unhappy at the thought of facing an eternity of damnation, whereby their prospects for progress and their ability to meet with their loved ones in higher kingdoms are eternally limited. In such a hopeless and unhappy situation, such a being might decide that there is no point in continuing their existence.

 

Who said people is telestial kingdom were unhappy?  

[Jane_Doe]

On August 7, 2016 at 6:16 PM, askandanswer said:

On August 8, 2016 at 1:01 AM, askandanswer said:

Ok, there seems to be a theme amongst many of the responses so far, saying something like whatever kingdom we end up in in the next life, it will be a good place for us to be and we will be happy there so no one will want to commit eternal suicide, even if they could.

So lets change the scenario a little. There are many  who were once in this life who, by their own hand, and following a conscious well thought out decision, have gladly chosen death over life. I can well imagine some of them entering the next life and their first thoughts being something like “darn, I thought I ended all this, and now here I am, alive again, despite my best efforts. I better try again.” Will they again be able to choose death (as in the permanent discontinuation of life and consciousness) over life, and be able to implement that decision? If they are not able to do so, is that a reduction in their ability to choose? Are they condemned to live out an eternity that they might not want? That doesn’t sound like a position of fun and happiness for them.

I can imagine a resurrected being, in the telestial kingdom or in outer darkness, being unhappy at the thought of facing an eternity of damnation, whereby their prospects for progress and their ability to meet with their loved ones in higher kingdoms are eternally limited. In such a hopeless and unhappy situation, such a being might decide that there is no point in continuing their existence.

 

Who said people is telestial kingdom were unhappy?  

[JonnieZ]

On 8/6/2016 at 11:11 PM, NightSG said:

But what about pigs?

 

I mean, if it's so wonderful there, there must be bacon there, and that's generally not terribly pleasant for the pig.  It would have to be agony for a pig that can't die.  Or do they like being dismantled, smoked and fried there?

Bacon is the gateway meat. - Anthony Bourdain