Sabbath vs. School activities? Lower grades...

[zil]

JST, Luke 6:29-30 (I'm sure you're familiar with other instances of similar teachings)

1 Corinthians 6:7

Yes, I know others will choose to interpret these differently, nevertheless, I choose to apply the "nor anything like unto it" principle.  IMO, principles relating to forgiveness and being peacemakers and being generous and humble, and the like, all relate.  Suing a school to ruin, IMO, has no redeeming value as an activity worthy of the efforts required (assuming it could even be done).  Walking away from it, on the other hand, or working with like-minded people to improve it, those are worth-while activities.

@LeSellers (just added so you'd know I replied)

Edited August 10, 2016 by zil
note that this is a response for Lehi

[LeSellers]

7 minutes ago, zil said:

Suing a school to ruin, IMO, has no redeeming value

If it keeps even one child from suffering under the delusion of education and the reality of indoctrination, then it has great value indeed.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

11 minutes ago, zil said:

principles relating to forgiveness and being peacemakers and being generous and humble, and the like, all relate.

And yet we are given stewardship over our children, and that does not mean to allow the government to take them and their minds to mold them into servile, docile wards of the state.

Luke 6: 29~30 (JST)

Quote

29 And unto him who smiteth thee on the cheek, offer also the other; or, in other words, it is better to offer the other, than to revile again. And him who taketh away thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 For it is better that thou suffer thine enemy to take these things, than to contend with him. Verily I say unto you, Your heavenly Father who seeth in secret, shall bring that wicked one into judgment.

An offense against me, personally, I can forgive. One against my wife or child, or grandchild, one responsibility against another, it's up to me to determine which is the greater. And there is no contest.

Lehi

[zil]

I wish only to note that there are more options than:

1. Send child to state-run school
2. or Sue state-run school to ruin (consider the realities of what this would entail)

...many of which are far more practical, effective, and compatible with being both a follower of Christ and a good citizen.  That you don't like #1 does not automatically make #2 the only, let alone best, alternative.

I am not arguing in favor of keeping state-run schools around.  I am arguing against attempting to use our law-suit-happy court system to attempt to shut them down.

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Do you need me to find you the scripture which says this is wrong?  Or would you like to do that on your own?

LeSellers has encouraged you to provide the scripture. I suspect he believes you'll include the admonishment of Paul against BELIEVERS WITHIN THE CHURCH suing one another in public courts. Paul sees this as very embarrassing, encouraging members to resolve their differences with their brothers/sisters through church mediation.  Nothing in this passage would require Christians to give up their legal rights against government injustice. In fact, this same Paul used his Roman citizenship (i.e. legal rights) on several occasions--even appealing to Caesar. 

BTW, I am not opposed to government-run schools--though I find the centralization of power at the state and federal levels troubling. Local district-run schools are often quite good.

Edited August 10, 2016 by prisonchaplain

[zil]

3 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

LeSellers has encouraged you to provide the scripture. I suspect he believes you'll include the admonishment of Paul against BELIEVERS WITHIN THE CHURCH suing one another in public courts. Paul sees this as very embarrassing, encouraging members to resolve their differences with their brothers/sisters through church mediation.  Nothing in this passage would require Christians to give up their legal rights against government injustice. In fact, this same Paul used his Roman citizenship (i.e. legal rights) on several occasions--even appealing to Caesar. 

As I said, I choose to apply the principle Paul teaches more broadly.  It's fine if other people choose to apply it as narrowly as it started.  And as I posted later, I don't think trying to use the courts is the best way to shut down said schools (I don't even understand why any rational person would think it possible to do it that way).  These are not the same as saying we should keep said schools around.

[prisonchaplain]

We posted almost simultaneously, Zil...so, I get your point.  Rather than shut the school down, I just want the judge to tell them not to downgrade a student who chooses Sabbath over a graded weekend sports event.

[NightSG]

9 hours ago, MrShorty said:

This. Though, in a little bit different discussion direction, how different is "my school class requires me to participate in this activity on Sunday so I think it is okay to participate" from "my employer (including the NFL for LDS professional football players) requires me to work on Sunday, so it is okay."?

I can freely seek other employment at any time.  (And if I had to work Sundays without some serious additional compensation, I would.)  Sort of hard to just pull your kids out of government schools unless you have either the time to homeschool or the money for a private school.  While there are generally alternatives for the (usually P.E.) requirements that these activities fulfill, being stuck in the generic class lacks a lot of the prestige that, for example, debate would bring for one seeking admission to a law school.

[anatess2]

23 minutes ago, zil said:

1. or Sue state-run school to ruin (consider the realities of what this would entail)

 

 

16 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

We posted almost simultaneously, Zil...so, I get your point.  Rather than shut the school down, I just want the judge to tell them not to downgrade a student who chooses Sabbath over a graded weekend sports event.

 

I read that as a figure of speech.

[zil]

18 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

We posted almost simultaneously, Zil...so, I get your point.  Rather than shut the school down, I just want the judge to tell them not to downgrade a student who chooses Sabbath over a graded weekend sports event.

Yes, I don't disagree with that part (if some law is being violated; if not, there are other methods).  It's the "sue them to ruin" part I was commenting on.

[Backroads]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Of course, God is.  But, that doesn't mean you should just give up on school because it conflicts.

This is the anatess-family way - if school conflicts with God, we work our buns off to resolve that conflict.  It is, of course, important to get good grades.  It is a test for a kid to figure out how he can succeed under an authority figure whose rules may not be fair or may conflict with one's morality - and succeed without sacrificing one's principles..

As @MormonGator stated, the grade doesn't necessarily mean you mastered or failed your academics.  Rather, the grade is something you achieve to learn how you can work under someone's imperfect authority.  Yes, learning to brown-nose while sticking to one's principles is a useful skill...

 

Do you have any specific examples your family has been through? I'm curious.

[paracaidista508]

5 hours ago, zil said:

Do you need me to find you the scripture which says this is wrong?  Or would you like to do that on your own?

I'm not going to look for anything. Knock yourself out.I'm doubtful the bible has a problem with suing people who are anti religous. And if it does???

Well dont sue the school then.

Also, perhaps you need to take a lude and not take everything I write so seriously. 

[zil]

7 minutes ago, paracaidista508 said:

Also, perhaps you need to take a lude ...

I would, but it's against my religion...

[paracaidista508]

Nothing in sec 89 bout that...right there with caffeineted sodas and endless desserts

[Blackmarch]

8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Of course, God is.  But, that doesn't mean you should just give up on school because it conflicts.

This is the anatess-family way - if school conflicts with God, we work our buns off to resolve that conflict.  It is, of course, important to get good grades.  It is a test for a kid to figure out how he can succeed under an authority figure whose rules may not be fair or may conflict with one's morality - and succeed without sacrificing one's principles..

As @MormonGator stated, the grade doesn't necessarily mean you mastered or failed your academics.  Rather, the grade is something you achieve to learn how you can work under someone's imperfect authority.  Yes, learning to brown-nose while sticking to one's principles is a useful skill...

 

I agree. In general if you do all you can, god usually provides some means to succeed at both.

But if not, after youve done all you can do to resolve the dilemma, and there is still conflict- the choice then will indicate which master one values most, at that moment.... But i think that is the key; doing all you can do in any given situation.

As for a grade, that is only a system label, given to help that system make a judgement on an individual.

 

[Traveler]

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 6:46 AM, NeedleinA said:

Well school for the kiddos is almost upon us in our area of the world again. I'm not sure how it is in your areas, but for us here, the schools have a huge chunk of their high school activities routinely on Sunday: Cross country, band concerts, show choir, etc. It has been this way for as long as I can remember now. One of the school board members was a Sister in our last Ward. This concern was brought up to her in an open forum discussion at Church. She said her hands are basically tied, and that useless enough parents complained, there was unfortunately nothing she could do.

If the students don't attend these Sunday events, it "does" hurt their grades.

So, curious what you would do?
Have them participate and get an "A".
Have them miss the event and get a "B" or a "C" instead?

I'm of the thought that it is better to take a B or a C ? How about you?

Hmmmmmm:  I would make it very clear to every teacher and ever school administrator that my children would not participate in any school sponsored activities that take place on Sunday.  I would also make it clear that any effort to affect my children/s grades for non-participation in Sabbath activities would result in a law suit directly citing them as well as any administrator personally (as well as an institution) for supporting in any way such a policy or grading for Sunday activity.  Clearly not that they have activities on Sunday but that they in any way use or intend to use such in any way to determine grades.

I would include all my claims in an open letter to the editor of the local newspaper as well as to all the local news outlets. That school can only require Monday through Friday attendance, That any other “required” attendance must not be mandatory for any grade.  I would also provide – through Facebook and twitter opportunity for anyone in the school district to join with me.

 

The Traveler

Edited August 11, 2016 by Traveler