Do we come close to worshipping Joseph Smith?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

  No. Joking and laughing are immoral. Gator is not amused by your attempt at shenanigans and tomfoolery Carb. 

Oh, yes.  Loud laughter and light mindedness.  Right.  Forgive me.  Let me go and repent.  I'll be back in a bit.

[Guest MormonGator]

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

That is awesome!!

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That is awesome!!

It's because I am awesome, @Carborendum. :: throws hair back and gives his best James Dean :: 

[Traveler]

59 minutes ago, zil said:

By that argument, traditional Christians, and lots of others, worship the NFL and NASCAR too.

 

Anciently it was considered that to provide money (offerings) for non-necessary items – or if you will, entertainment, that such was considered to be a form of worship of that entertainment.  The most famous example of this in scripture is considered the worship of Baal by the “children” of Israel; or as was spoken anciently – to serve two masters.  The idea of offerings as a form or worship could easily transcend into criticism of what we generally classify as pagan religion – in particular – the pagan idea that we worship by making offerings or paying for divine favor. 

By this same logic many worship violence and adultery just by the logic of the entertainment they purchase (give offerings for).  It could be argued that paying taxes is a form or worship of the “political g-ds” that “govern” our various countries.

What we humans tend to do; is blame others for their “offenses” and then in the same mind set turn around to forgive ourselves of the same kind of offenses.  There is a term for this process and it is called hypocrisy.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's because I am awesome, @Carborendum. :: throws hair back and gives his best James Dean :: 

Wait, so the Queen is really James Dean after he had an operation?  That's just wrong!!

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Wait, so the Queen is really James Dean after he had an operation?  That's just wrong!!

What's with you and gay/transgender jokes bro? Do you have anything you want to tell us? Not that there is anything wrong with that. 

Edited August 15, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

What's with you and gay/transgender jokes bro? Do you have anything you want to tell us?

Alright.  I might as well come out of the closet.  I have at times said some things that might indicate something similar to a sort of unusual sense of humor about things regarding the subject akin to a topic similar to liking spaghetti more than I like kim chee.

Yes, I know.  I'm Korean.  And as much as I like kim chee... doggonit, I like Italian food.  I blame it on the cheese.  And I am what I eat.  I eat a lot of ham and cheese.  So...

[Traveler]

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Alright.  I might as well come out of the closet.  I have at times said some things that might indicate something similar to a sort of unusual sense of humor about things regarding the subject akin to a topic similar to liking spaghetti more than I like kim chee.

Yes, I know.  I'm Korean.  And as much as I like kim chee... doggonit, I like Italian food.  I blame it on the cheese.  And I am what I eat.  I eat a lot of ham and cheese.  So...

 

Hmmmmmmmmm - so can we assume that you enjoy being in "deep" kim chee?

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Hmmmmmmmmm - so can we assume that you enjoy being in "deep" kim chee?

 

The Traveler

I could see the possibility of being found dead in the bathtub filled with spaghetti and kim chee.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I could see the possibility of being found dead in the bathtub filled with spaghetti and kim chee.

Don't be offended, but I may skip that episode of Criminal Minds.

[Nothing]

I think some people come close to worshipping Joseph Smith as a demigod, but not as God.

 

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 8:48 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, this is one of the enduring criticisms that really just doesn't have even the tiniest leg to stand on.  The thing was written right after Joseph's martyrdom, for pete's sake.  Ever been to a funeral where the deceased wasn't praised?  Is mormondom to be condemned for the sin of grieving over a lost great man?  For remembering the prophet who ushered in the last dispensation?  What sort of messed-up, cold-hearted critic would deny a song marking the passing of an important person?  

I see what you mean here. People say nice things about a guy and ignore negative things when he dies. But should a eulogy become doctrine? I think it's kind of weird to sing a hymn of praise about Joseph. Here are some other hymns of praise that we sing:

-Praise to the Lord, the Almighty

-Praise the Lord with Heart and Voice

-Praise Ye the Lord

-Praise God, from Whom All Blessings Flow

 

I wonder if singing a hymn of praise makes the word "praise" mean more than to "express warm approval or admiration of."

 

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 7:07 AM, NeedleinA said:

Sadly, this is in fact a dangerous thing to do... a pedestal of worship. If someone has elevated Joseph Smith to worshiping status they are often times "crushed" once they learn some historical fact about him that they didn't know previously. Rather than simply seeing him as an imperfect human, which he was, there is a tendency by some to go off the deep end and revolt against him entirely instead, doing a 180.

This is a good point. Having excessively high expectations for someone can lead to painful disillusionment. So why do some people place Joseph on a pedestal?

Edited August 15, 2016 by Nothing

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, Nothing said:

t. So why do some people place Joseph on a pedestal?

Because they don't understand Mormonism, and that might (key word, might) include many active LDS. That's not an insult. A lot Catholics don't understand Catholicism. A lot of protestants don't under protestantism. 

 

Edited August 15, 2016 by MormonGator

[NeuroTypical]

I think many/most of us, at some point in our lives, have heroes and engage in some sort of hero worship.  When one of them falls from our expected bar of grace and proves themselves human, it can be quite a shock.

A Catholic once told me this joke: 

"The Catholic Pope is infallible, but Catholics don't believe it.   The LDS prophet is fallible, but Mormons don't believe it."

But other than that, the phenomenon seems to be a human thing, not a Mormon thing.

Edited August 15, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[Jane_Doe]

26 minutes ago, Nothing said:

I see what you mean here. People say nice things about a guy and ignore negative things when he dies. But should a eulogy become doctrine? I think it's kind of weird to sing a hymn of praise about Joseph. Here are some other hymns of praise that we sing:

-Praise to the Lord, the Almighty

-Praise the Lord with Heart and Voice

-Praise Ye the Lord

-Praise God, from Whom All Blessings Flow

 

I wonder if singing a hymn of praise makes the word "praise" mean more than to "express warm approval or admiration of."

A would you make the same argument for the words "awesome" or "great"?  We can and often do praise people by calling them awesome and great, and no one think that is worshiping.

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 

"The Catholic Pope is infallible, but Catholics don't believe it.   The LDS prophet is fallible, but Mormons don't believe it."

 

 Catholics and LDS have a lot more in common than people think (yes, some major differences as well) and this issue is one of the big ones. It can be obnoxious when people are convinced we worship Smith Jr, just like it can obnoxious when people think Catholics worship Mary.  

[zil]

"Praise" is not equal to "worship".

One can praise without worshiping.

One can praise and worship the same being.

I'm not sure one can worship without praising (though it may be possible).

This is that "elephants are gray, elephants are animals, therefore animals are gray" error - "We worship God.  We praise God.  Therefore praise is the same as worship."  That's a logic error.  The two do not have to equate.

Try this on for size: We worship God.  We love God.  Does that mean we cannot love anyone else without worshiping them?

[Nothing]

47 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Because they don't understand Mormonism, and that might (key word, might) include many active LDS. That's not an insult. A lot Catholics don't understand Catholicism. A lot of protestants don't under protestantism. 

 

31 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I think many/most of us, at some point in our lives, have heroes and engage in some sort of hero worship.  When one of them falls from our expected bar of grace and proves themselves human, it can be quite a shock.

A Catholic once told me this joke: 

"The Catholic Pope is infallible, but Catholics don't believe it.   The LDS prophet is fallible, but Mormons don't believe it."

But other than that, the phenomenon seems to be a human thing, not a Mormon thing.

Haven’t we been taught through official channels to see Joseph Smith as a hero and place him on a very high pedestal? John Taylor “the Book of Mormon, and this book of Doctrine and Covenants of the church, cost the best blood of the nineteenth century to bring them forth for the salvation of a ruined world…” (D&C 135:6). The hymn says “Death cannot conquer the hero again.” Following are some quotes about Joseph Smith by presidents of the Church found in Teachings of Presidents of the Church manuals:

 

Quote

If Jesus lives, and is the Savior of the world, Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, and lives in the bosom of his father Abraham. Though they have killed his body, yet he lives and beholds the face of his Father in Heaven; and his garments are pure as the angels that surround the throne of God; and no man on the earth can say that Jesus lives, and deny, at the same time, my assertion about the Prophet Joseph. This is my testimony, and it is strong. (emphasis added, Brigham Young, link to lds.org)

 

…I testify before God, angels, and men, that he was a good, honorable, virtuous man—that his doctrines were good, scriptural, and wholesome—that his precepts were such as became a man of God—that his private and public character was unimpeachable—and that he lived and died as a man of God and a gentleman. This is my testimony…When I reflected that our noble chieftain, the Prophet of the living God, had fallen, and that I had seen his brother in the cold embrace of death,…I thought, why must God’s nobility, the salt of the earth, the most exalted of the human family, and the most perfect types of all excellence, fall victims to the cruel, fiendish hate of incarnate devils? (emphasis added, John Taylor, link to lds.org)

 

There never was a man that possessed a higher degree of integrity and more devotedness to the interest of mankind than the Prophet Joseph Smith…I knew him to be a man of God, full of the spirit of his calling—a man whose integrity could not be disputed, and who was honest in all his endeavors. No one that was as intimately acquainted with him as I was could find any fault with him, so far as his moral character was concerned…One day he called the brethren of the Twelve Apostles together and other prominent Elders of the Church to appoint them to their several labors and missions. Each sat and waited with much anxiety to hear the word of the Prophet concerning his future duties. They felt that they were in the presence of a superior being. (emphasis added, Lorenzo Snow, link to lds.org)

 

To me it is very strange indeed that there should be so much extreme ill feeling manifested by the world against Joseph Smith. He wronged no man. I am a witness of that, for I know his life. I have seen him in the flesh, and I have read of his sayings. I have read the revelations that the Lord gave to him. I am familiar with his work, and I know that he never wronged a living soul. He did not injure his fellowmen, but he did much to exalt them. (emphasis added, Joseph F. Smith, link to lds.org)

 

Thus did the Prophet Joseph Smith climax his earth life and fulfill the mortal part of his divinely appointed mission. This mortal mission, he made clear, was not to end until fully completed. Like the mission of the Savior, “a lamb slain before the foundation of the world,” Joseph was truly foreordained to his great mission…I testify to you that Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God, one of the truly great prophets of all time, a man of destiny, a man of character, a man of courage, a man of deep spirituality, a God-like prophet of the Lord, a truly noble and great one of all time. (emphasis added, Ezra Taft Benson, link to lds.org)

 

We are taught that no one can have a testimony of Christ without having a testimony of Joseph Smith. We are taught that his character was unimpeachable, he was the most exalted of people, his moral character was without fault, he never wronged anyone, he was God-like, and some people considered him to be a superior being. What concerns me the most is how he was likened to the Savior. When speaking of “a lamb slain before the foundation of the world,” only Jesus Christ should be mentioned.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Nothing

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Nothing said:

 

Haven’t we been taught through official channels to see Joseph Smith as a hero and place him on a very high pedestal?

First off, you are asking great questions. I apologize if I came across as snarky. Not my intention, just my sense of humor. I apologize again. 

Second, it does seem like we worship Joseph Smith Jr sometimes. Some LDS probably cross a line that I personally am not comfortable with (again, some. Not all. Not an insult against LDS). 

We venerate (respect, hold in esteem, etc)  Smith Jr because we believe that God choose him to restore His church.  To the outsider (and yes, even to LDS) I can easily see why they would get confused. At first, shouldn't we worship someone who God choose (for reasons we don't know about) to restore HIs church?

The answer  is no. We are told several times to only worship Christ. Smith Jr himself didn't accept personal worship. That's why we don't close prayers in Smith Jrs name, only the name of Christ. So it can be a struggle, but we need to learn the difference between "venerate" and worship. 

Hope this helps. 

Edited August 15, 2016 by MormonGator

[Nothing]

22 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

First off, you are asking great questions. I apologize if I came across as snarky. Not my intention, just my sense of humor. I apologize again...

...We are told several times to only worship Christ. Smith Jr himself didn't accept personal worship. That's why we don't close prayers in Smith Jrs name, only the name of Christ. So it can be a struggle, but we need to learn the difference between "venerate" and worship. 

Hope this helps. 

There's no need to apologize. I do see the difference between venerate and worship.

I am not saying people worship Joseph Smith as a God, but I think some people come close to worshipping Joseph Smith as a demigod. I am concerned that hyperbole has effectively become official Church doctrine and it causes some people to hold Joseph to an excessively high standard.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Nothing said:

. I am concerned that hyperbole has effectively become official Church doctrine and it causes some people to hold Joseph to an excessively high standard.

I am concerned about this too, actually.

I've seen it with people who refuse to believe or simply can't handle negative things about Smith Jr. They wrongly expect perfection from him and when they don't get it, their faith falls apart. 

[FogCity]

there is a beautiful old LDS chapel on about 27th south and 4th east in Salt Lake City that has a huge stained glass window of the first vision right behind the pulpit.  I believe it just shows Joseph on his knees and two light beams . 

this is another topic, but when did we become so boring in the design of our ward/stake buildings, did the church outsource its architect dept. to Ikea ?

Edited August 15, 2016 by FogCity

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, FogCity said:

there is a beautiful old LDS chapel on about 27th south and 4th east in Salt Lake City that has a huge stained glass window of the first vision right behind the pulpit.  I believe it just shows Joseph on his knees and two light beams . 

this is another topic, but when did we become so boring in the design of our ward/stake buildings, did the church outsource its architect dept. to Ikea ?

No, but the new, functional buildings are designed for economic effectiveness. We don't need cathedrals with their "sermons in stone" to preach the Gospel: most of our people can read, and stained glass, beautiful as it can be, preaches no finer sermon than one from the Holy Ghost.

The money saved in building simple chapels and other edifices goes toward the important second and third prongs of the mission of the Church: preaching the Gospel and redeeming the dead, not to mention caring for the poor and the needy.

Lehi

[zil]

1 hour ago, FogCity said:

when did we become so boring in the design of our ward/stake buildings, did the church outsource its architect dept. to Ikea ?

And I have also heard that part of it is to ensure we are focused on the right things (worshiping God, feeling the Spirit) and neither distracted by the architecture / decorations, nor accused of idol worship (via statues / paintings / other artwork), nor at risk of it (speaking of putting people on pedestals).

Personally, I often lower my head and close my eyes, to concentrate on what I'm hearing (seeing the speaker generally doesn't add anything to the experience for me); the rest of the time, I'm actually taking notes, so the decorations are irrelevant. :)  <-- Poor abandoned punctuation-symbol-combination. Their emoji has gone away.

 

[Guest]

Another question. Do we worship the Holy Ghost? He's part of the God head and blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the unpardonable sin.