Preferred Means of Supernatural Rapid Transit

[zil]

So, I'm pondering fictional / hypothetical methods of moving rapidly from one location to another (not necessarily in this universe), and would appreciate others' thoughts on the "believability" (as in "suspension of disbelief") of the various methods we've seen in fiction, or on methods we haven't seen, but which seem believable to you.  My intended use is for moving people and things around on a single planet*, and cannot involve spaceships moving at warp speed (for example), but mostly I'm interested in thoughts on possible mechanics / methodologies and which ones are somewhat conceivable.  The methods I can think of are:

1) Beam me up, Scotty -style (convert matter to energy or more basic particles, move them rapidly, reassemble at the other end)

2) Worm holes (ala Stargate SG-1) or other means of opening some sort of portal / tube through which one can move at very high speeds

3) Folding / bending space to make two distant places "touch" (seems like this would require another dimension or something)

4) Manipulating time, so that one still travels as normal, but either at ridiculous speeds (seems to present mechanical problems) or outside normal time

5) Time travel? (You get there in normal time, then travel back, thereby basically having made your travel instantaneous?  Or it's merged with some sort of manipulation of space as well as time?)

6) Use of alternate dimensions (which presumably bypass "local" time?)

7) Superman -style (person capable of moving self and near people / objects at high speed - you know, without the wind ripping your skin off...)

8) Whatever you can think of

There's always the totally-unexplained magic methodology that no one questions or explains, but I really don't like that.  I'd much prefer something which has at least some sort of vaguely-explainable mechanism.  Some of these seem like they'd be more believable if there were some sort of device or marker at each end of the trip.  Others don't seem to necessarily need that.  Some seem like they could facilitate basically instant travel, others seem like some noticeable duration would be involved, even if it were very short.

Opinions of science geeks with thoughts on the viability / possibility of these various options greatly appreciated.

(*Though there's an inter-planetary-without-ships possibility, but that's still in the vague-ideas stage.)

Thanks!

[Blackmarch]

15 minutes ago, zil said:

So, I'm pondering fictional / hypothetical methods of moving rapidly from one location to another (not necessarily in this universe), and would appreciate others' thoughts on the "believability" (as in "suspension of disbelief") of the various methods we've seen in fiction, or on methods we haven't seen, but which seem believable to you.  My intended use is for moving people and things around on a single planet*, and cannot involve spaceships moving at warp speed (for example), but mostly I'm interested in thoughts on possible mechanics / methodologies and which ones are somewhat conceivable.  The methods I can think of are:

1) Beam me up, Scotty -style (convert matter to energy or more basic particles, move them rapidly, reassemble at the other end)

2) Worm holes (ala Stargate SG-1) or other means of opening some sort of portal / tube through which one can move at very high speeds

3) Folding / bending space to make two distant places "touch" (seems like this would require another dimension or something)

4) Manipulating time, so that one still travels as normal, but either at ridiculous speeds (seems to present mechanical problems) or outside normal time

5) Time travel? (You get there in normal time, then travel back, thereby basically having made your travel instantaneous?  Or it's merged with some sort of manipulation of space as well as time?)

6) Use of alternate dimensions (which presumably bypass "local" time?)

7) Superman -style (person capable of moving self and near people / objects at high speed - you know, without the wind ripping your skin off...)

8) Whatever you can think of

There's always the totally-unexplained magic methodology that no one questions or explains, but I really don't like that.  I'd much prefer something which has at least some sort of vaguely-explainable mechanism.  Some of these seem like they'd be more believable if there were some sort of device or marker at each end of the trip.  Others don't seem to necessarily need that.  Some seem like they could facilitate basically instant travel, others seem like some noticeable duration would be involved, even if it were very short.

Opinions of science geeks with thoughts on the viability / possibility of these various options greatly appreciated.

(*Though there's an inter-planetary-without-ships possibility, but that's still in the vague-ideas stage.)

Thanks!

1) If one could figure out how to manipulate atomic structure precisely on a massive scale this would be feasible- however Dr. McCoy's fear is quite reasonable- how do you know you're not killing yourself and creating a duplicate?

2 and 3 are basically the same- and theoretically it's feasible... just that the energy requirements are what put it out of reach, as well as finding something other than mass that can warp spacetime.

4 would be a spinoff of 2 and 3. this would only be useful for long lived items/beings in relation to the rest of the universe in terms of travel. however as a means of combat or storage this would be insanely useful.

6) this is what hyperspace is. basically if you can go to another existance that overlaps with ours that has a different spacial structure (so that say going a mile there would translate to going one AU here or something.. the problem would be transitioning between the two supposing that such an alternate reality sort of thing existed)

7) youd need a combination of force fields, possible warp tech, as well as a way to change one's inertial status without using brute force.. or be able to apply the same force to all atoms in the traveling object/person equally and simultaneously. generally higher speeds demand higher energy tho.

8) could always go for a hitchhikers guide improbability drive
 

[zil]

8 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

8) could always go for a hitchhikers guide improbability drive

Ha!  Forgot that one.  It's certainly the most amusing, but I think Douglas Adams could easily sue me out of existence.

[Blackmarch]

for personnel transport, warping of some sort is probably going to be the best bet for FTL transport, barring that the next one would probably be atomic superassembly over distance one (ie transporters and replicators). But for non paranormal transport, having a super efficient brute force system works too.

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Blackmarch

[estradling75]

There is also E.E Smith's Inertialess Drive

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertialess_drive

[Guest]

There's really only those that you mentioned or variations on those themes.  Think about it:

1) You've got time and space to play with.
2) You've got alternative dimensions which inlcudes both wormholes and folding space.
3) Teleportation (which can be done by matter-energy exchange or by "zapping").
4) You've got high speed transport -- if you get something from point A to point B really fast, that's the same as teleportation, really.
5) Then you have the inexplicable that may as well be magic type (like the improbability drive).

But any way you look at it, you've got to get the object from Point A to Point B.  There are only so many variations on that theme.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

for personnel transport, warping of some sort is probably going to be the best bet for FTL transport

"Warping" meaning warping of space time or...?  (Just want to be sure I'm understanding, cuz frankly, I have no idea how the Star Trek -style "Warp speed" is supposed to work.)

10 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

1) If one could figure out how to manipulate atomic structure precisely on a massive scale this would be feasible- however Dr. McCoy's fear is quite reasonable- how do you know you're not killing yourself and creating a duplicate?

2 and 3 are basically the same- and theoretically it's feasible... just that the energy requirements are what put it out of reach, as well as finding something other than mass that can warp spacetime.

6) this is what hyperspace is. basically if you can go to another existance that overlaps with ours that has a different spacial structure (so that say going a mile there would translate to going one AU here or something.. the problem would be transitioning between the two supposing that such an alternate reality sort of thing existed)

1) In the universe I have created, this is definitely feasible (that is, the ability to correctly manipulate atomic structure precisely on any scale), though the learning of how to do it without screwing up royally and destroying the person/thing you're trying to move is certainly a concern.

2 & 3) Will do more pondering.  Something in the back of my brain says this should be doable in the universe in question, I'm just not sure how - the mass would not be there, but the energy could be.

4) I'm rather liking this.  I think this is the idea used in Anne McCaffrey's Pern series - I think the dragons go into something like hyperspace - though theirs includes time travel (and actually, now I'm not sure they move rapidly through space, it might only be time travel - I'll have to go refresh my memory - still the concept seems feasible).

Off to read about an inertialess drive now.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

"Warping" meaning warping of space time or...?  (Just want to be sure I'm understanding, cuz frankly, I have no idea how the Star Trek -style "Warp speed" is supposed to work.)

There's "warping" and there's "warp speed".

Warping simply means that time/space is being manipulated in a manner that is non-standard or non-intuitive.  Depending on the fictional or theoretical realm you're working with, this can mean a variety of things.  Folding space falls into this category.  Travelling from the Wheel of Time fits this category.  Stargate never really explained how the gate worked (that I'm aware of) but one explanation would be that warped space between gates.

Warp Speed is based on the base of the natural log.  The idea was that per relativity, anything that approached the speed of light would become so effectively massive that it could never be accelerated to the speed of light.  But if somehow we were to have a "jump" in speed from C/e to e*C (Warp 1) then we would see reverse asymptotic behavior in the relativistic effects of mass and speed on the other side of the speed of light.  The warp nacelles somehow allowed the ship to go into subspace in such a manner that its mass was tremendously reduced in an instant.  So, the normal F=ma equation would be modified by several orders of magnitude to allow the jump to Warp 1 or beyond.  

Then the trick was how the warp engines worked.  They would have to create a reactive force that was not based on mass, but on other forces such as EM.  But I never heard how that was supposed to create propulsion.  If it were mass, then the subspace field would also lower their mass.  However, it could be like the spinning skater changing its radius for a change in angular velocity.

[zil]

21 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

There is also E.E Smith's Inertialess Drive

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertialess_drive

This reminds me of Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series - where some characters can store and retrieve their own mass in physical objects (somehow without altering the mass of the object itself).  Of course, he never offers anything like an explanation of how the storage / retrieval works, so maybe I'm worrying over nothing... :)

[estradling75]

Give how established all these methods are in Sci-Fi pretty much any of them are going to be "believable"  The kicker is what about the ramifications of this technology on society.  That usually were a story will hold together or fall apart on believably..

Think about World were everyone can get nearly anywhere in the blink of an eye.  What happens cities, to the suburbs, to the rural areas, to nations and countries?

[zil]

6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Give how established all these methods are in Sci-Fi pretty much any of them are going to be "believable"  The kicker is what about the ramifications of this technology on society.  That usually were a story will hold together or fall apart on believably..

Think about World were everyone can get nearly anywhere in the blink of an eye.  What happens cities, to the suburbs, to the rural areas, to nations and countries?

Yes, well, there's the kicker - technology in this world is very horses-and-swords*, but with "magic".  But the magic system cannot defy the laws of the universe, but rather, it uses them (there are some different forces in the universe, and some mortals who can control said forces - something that's been done in tons of fantasy fiction).  This is partly why I said no spaceships would be involved and we'd be staying on one planet, and also why I'm more interested in the mechanics - magic will be used, but it must be used in a believable way.  For example, some people can create whatever they can dream up, but they can't create it from nothing, they must break an existing object (even if it's dirt) down to base molecules and then reassemble them - and they can't create something they can't imagine (e.g. if you don't know what an engine is, let alone what all the internal mechanisms are, you couldn't create it - but if you knew what all that was, you could whip one up out of dirt, literally - though it's not easy and not everyone has this ability).

*It was once more advanced, prior to global catastrophe, and no-doubt will advance just like any civilization (only with "magic" thrown in the mix).

Still, yes, the ability for some to travel rapidly between two points, and who can do it, and how much they can move, and how quickly all impact the story greatly.  There are some people who already know how to do this, and my main character is trying to figure out how (which is why I'm trying to figure out how ).  This ability seems to be necessary to the story (every time I try to remove it, lots of things fall apart), but the details can be tweaked - I'm still working on that.

[estradling75]

Ahhh ok that is why you had Supernatural in the title.

You could use them all...  Some magicians fold space and time and "step" to the other side...  other convert to light or electricity or something and then convert back... others stop/accelerate time...  others dimension travel...  All based on how their individual minds understand and work with what is "real"

[zil]

Sometimes I think that the method of supernatural travel in my universe is the same as whatever angels use in this one.  Of course, there's all kinds of presumption in there, since I have no idea how angels move in our universe. For all I know, their movement requires time (or duration), and they're dispatched at exactly the right time by an omniscient God to ensure they get here where and when they're needed.  Yet part of me thinks they can move (near) instantly, which makes me wonder about  @Traveler's virtual reality thread and about comments I've read (and can't go look up right now) which essentially say that we make our own reality through thought and belief - that the world is how we see it, rather than that we see it as it is.  Perhaps if I had sufficient faith that I was actually in Jerusalem right this very instant rather than where I "know" myself to be (which is not Jerusalem), I would actually be in Jerusalem, by the "simple" fact that I believe it.

[rpframe]

I think there is a lot of power in using understandable physics as a basis for "magic". It gives the technology vulnerabilities. and you can build culture around those weaknesses. Additionally, it can add flavor to stories that involve the technology. You can come up with some sort of "believable" reason why that technology is or is not available.. or why its not safe to use in whatever situation.

examples:

• Some characters may have a fear of being demolecularized.
• There may be some moral implications relative to the technology. (someone mentioned transporters making copies of people.. and I wanted to note there is actually an episode about that http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Chances_(episode))
• I can't beam up because of radiation blocking the transporter lock.
• It's not safe to jump to warp until the transport is complete because the transporter beam must complete the transfer (or whatever).
• Stargate Goa'uld transport rings use a "matter stream" that is "intercepted" by another ship in multiple episodes.

Anyway.. having rules engages your logical mind and makes it fun.

I'd also like to add to the list of technology examples... "Mass Effect" basically uses a magical material "element zero" to establish space tunnels in which everything inside's mass is reduced to zero (near zero?), allowing small forces to propel things at great velocities.

Sounds like you already have a world you are working in.. so.. some additional characteristics about the world may lend itself to a solution growing more organically from the story.

Like... do they have a complex satellite system? Maybe some sort of matter stream or space lightning needs to be bounced between points in space between origin and destination.

I've always like the idea of "subspace currents/tunnels" that have some sort of natural occurrence. Or in other words.. maybe there are natural energy conduits (like.. predictable currents in the ocean) that exist is some sort of "subspace/dimension" that occur naturally and can be used as currents/wormholes. Meaning that they have the technology to find and use them where they already exist, but they don't have a clue how to create them, or maybe it would be impractical to try.

Idk.. I have lots of ideas about this sort of thing

 

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, zil said:

Sometimes I think that the method of supernatural travel in my universe is the same as whatever angels use in this one.  Of course, there's all kinds of presumption in there, since I have no idea how angels move in our universe. For all I know, their movement requires time (or duration), and they're dispatched at exactly the right time by an omniscient God to ensure they get here where and when they're needed.  Yet part of me thinks they can move (near) instantly, which makes me wonder about  @Traveler's virtual reality thread and about comments I've read (and can't go look up right now) which essentially say that we make our own reality through thought and belief - that the world is how we see it, rather than that we see it as it is.  Perhaps if I had sufficient faith that I was actually in Jerusalem right this very instant rather than where I "know" myself to be (which is not Jerusalem), I would actually be in Jerusalem, by the "simple" fact that I believe it.

To quote Morphus:  Your mind makes it real

[zil]

Thanks, everyone.  Please keep the ideas coming.  I may not have much time to reply the rest of today (have an RS activity to prep for and attend), but I'll be reading and replying as soon as I can.  @rpframe - interesting additional thoughts - I shall be pondering.  (No satellites (other than moons) around this world - the planet never reached that level of technology.)

[rpframe]

oh so.. I just read the *horses and swords* comment.

So... if we are talking with magic/supernatural powers as the basis for instantaneous movement... needs to have a few restrictions.

Like... don't want to make it so effortless that at dinnertime your character would find it easier to instantly teleport from the couch to the table, pick it up, and then teleport back to the couch. (or in other words, probably don't want an ability to become a defining characteristic).

I think the sorts of restrictions you want to work with will help define the medium.

Like...

How often would you like the character(s) to be able to teleport (every few seconds/minutes/days/harvest-moons/lifetimes)?

How costly should it be (effortless/slightly-draining/half-of-my-strength/sacrifice-a-virgin/sacrifice-myself)? 

What kinds of conditional restrictions should it have? This may come naturally from a need to control the power.. since... being anywhere you want whenever you want can be an obstacle to putting your character in danger. So like

• How do I activate the power?
  • snap fingers
    • possible weakness: encasing hands in stone/ice
  • complex ritual
    • possible weakness: time constraints/space
  • just by thinking
    • possible weakness: lack-of-consciousness
  • be in certain location(s)
  • catalyst required
    • e.g. must be in possession of magical artifact/person

Anyway.. you can only a few restrictions to make it mostly available (but try not to make it hokey... like... superman being vulnerable to only cryptonite, magic, and red suns)

Or have lots of restrictions to make it so that you can only do it once ever.. or.. once in a while... or.. only a couple times in a row...or only when absolutely necessary...

[mordorbund]

I like variations on the time(less) dimension.

Did you know that when you disappear an object, it's not really gone? It enters the Pantry - an unseen spiral shelf the world is wound around. Some people have learned to disappear themselves into the Pantry and reappear wherever they want (turns out it's wherever someone else wants, they have to have a trusted partner work the incantation for them).

There's another space world that overlays this one - it is the Void from which it was created. Time is a construct of this world. When you enter the Void, you are always in the Void. Think of entering/exiting the Void as passing through a trap door. You cannot pass through if someone is standing on it. And since this world is timeless, everywhere you travel you remain. So you can only enter or exit each location no more than once because you are blocking it if you've entered it before or if you passed over it.

Or perhaps it's an Inception-type layer. Time is 1/5 as you traverse each layer. These layers are transparent, so you will still be visible and interact with everyone, but 5-times as fast (or 25, 125, etc). It also goes in the other direction, so you can slip into a lower layer and finish a boring 5 minute conversation in 1 minute.

Yet another one with an adjacent world has time but it is completely separate from ours (Narnia-style) requires focus. Only a certain class of people have learned the necessary focus and knowledge (the knowledge needed is trivial but kept secret). This other world is heaven. It is beautiful, glorious, filled with the highest class of angels (you can even stick dead loved ones here if it helps). Once they've entered this realm, that is where the focused discipline comes into play. They have to want to leave or else they will stay. Initiates are always introduced through a ceremony where they are escorted through by a circle of mentors who attempt to block out distractions. As their resolve becomes stronger they make the trip with fewer aides. They are given guards when a loved one dies.

A variation on the above - did I mention that the heaven in question is Valhalla? Good luck with your trip.

 

[Guest]

So, have you ever been looking for something and just couldn't see it?  You just left it on your desk.  You're looking all over your desk under and over papers, notebooks, etc.  But it appears to be gone.  Then you look over at the window sill near the phone for a moment.  It's not there.  Then you look back at your desk and it's right in front of you on top of all the papers.

Here's what's happening:

An angel is playing a prank on you.  You're working on a paper.  You turn a way for just a couple of seconds.  The angel takes it and hides it in his robe.  Then when you turn back, it's gone.  So you look all over.  When you turn away, he puts it back on your desk.  You turn back, there it is.

[Guest]

Here's a thought.

If you're moving something from point A to point B I figure you can do combinations of three things:

1) Play with the point A and point B.
2) Play with the object being moved -- this would include change in speed or de-molecularization.
3) Play with the dimension between A & B.

What if?

You make the dimension zero by finding a significant commonality unique between the two locations and making them one location.  Then you must move a zero distance and unlink the two locations again.  You could even have a description of what it is like to move a zero distance.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Guest

[Blackmarch]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

There's "warping" and there's "warp speed".

Warping simply means that time/space is being manipulated in a manner that is non-standard or non-intuitive.  Depending on the fictional or theoretical realm you're working with, this can mean a variety of things.  Folding space falls into this category.  Travelling from the Wheel of Time fits this category.  Stargate never really explained how the gate worked (that I'm aware of) but one explanation would be that warped space between gates.

Warp Speed is based on the base of the natural log.  The idea was that per relativity, anything that approached the speed of light would become so effectively massive that it could never be accelerated to the speed of light.  But if somehow we were to have a "jump" in speed from C/e to e*C (Warp 1) then we would see reverse asymptotic behavior in the relativistic effects of mass and speed on the other side of the speed of light.  The warp nacelles somehow allowed the ship to go into subspace in such a manner that its mass was tremendously reduced in an instant.  So, the normal F=ma equation would be modified by several orders of magnitude to allow the jump to Warp 1 or beyond.  

Then the trick was how the warp engines worked.  They would have to create a reactive force that was not based on mass, but on other forces such as EM.  But I never heard how that was supposed to create propulsion.  If it were mass, then the subspace field would also lower their mass.  However, it could be like the spinning skater changing its radius for a change in angular velocity.

stargates use  a form of wormhole

[NeuroTypical]

I can't believe astral projection hasn't been mentioned yet.  

Why take your body, when you can project your consciousness? 

I maintain my open offer for anyone who wants to take me up on it.

[Blackmarch]

4 hours ago, zil said:

"Warping" meaning warping of space time or...?  (Just want to be sure I'm understanding, cuz frankly, I have no idea how the Star Trek -style "Warp speed" is supposed to work.)

1) In the universe I have created, this is definitely feasible (that is, the ability to correctly manipulate atomic structure precisely on any scale), though the learning of how to do it without screwing up royally and destroying the person/thing you're trying to move is certainly a concern.

2 & 3) Will do more pondering.  Something in the back of my brain says this should be doable in the universe in question, I'm just not sure how - the mass would not be there, but the energy could be.

4) I'm rather liking this.  I think this is the idea used in Anne McCaffrey's Pern series - I think the dragons go into something like hyperspace - though theirs includes time travel (and actually, now I'm not sure they move rapidly through space, it might only be time travel - I'll have to go refresh my memory - still the concept seems feasible).

Off to read about an inertialess drive now.

I've always thought it was along the lines of bending and compressing spacetime altho it may have a couple voodoo hijinks to go along with that.

[zil]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I can't believe astral projection hasn't been mentioned yet.  

Why take your body, when you can project your consciousness? 

I maintain my open offer for anyone who wants to take me up on it.

Nope, gotta travel physically.

You folk are awfully creative!  Maybe you should think about writing books.

 

[Blackmarch]

I was assuming physical movement, and generally tend to put esp with things along more the lines of magic.....

however, if you implement telepethy of some sort i suppose you could have a waldo/avatar at a target point that is capable of being interfaced telepathically that could offer some or all the physical inputs.
you could explain it with some mumbo jumbo of how the brain has some active quantum tunneling or some such going on.

Another ESP idea i've come across was the ability through sheer force of will to rend and remake reality.