Just_A_Guy Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 I'm not sure if we've discussed previously the American Bar Association's investigation (probably spurred by the complaint of a group called FreeBYU) into BYU's practice of denying ecclesiastical endorsements to students, including law students, who leave the LDS Church during the course of their studies. Anyways . . . for what it's worth, the ABA appears to have dropped their investigation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said: who leave the LDS Church during the course of their studies. Jag, I don't know much about BYU. Do you have to be LDS to go there? If you are and leave the church, are you kicked out of the school? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 From the linked article Quote "BYU previously has said that Mormons who leave the faith are held to a different standard than those who begin their first semester having never been part of the LDS Church. The school stresses that the rule applies to students who leave the church and not those who wrestle with faith issues temporarily. Non-LDS students pay twice what a Mormon student does at BYU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, MormonGator said: Jag, I don't know much about BYU. Do you have to be LDS to go there? If you are and leave the church, are you kicked out of the school? You don't have to be LDS to go there; but you have to sign on to the school's honor code which provides that, for LDS students, "Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the loss of good Honor Code standing". You also usually have to have a current ecclesiastical endorsement from your bishop or other spiritual leader, though there is an exemption from that requirement under certain conditions. BYU recently tweaked the exemption process a bit, which apparently is giving FreeBYU the excuse it needs to declare victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said: You don't have to be LDS to go there; but you have to sign on to the school's honor code which provides that, for LDS students, "Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the loss of good Honor Code standing". You also usually have to have a current ecclesiastical endorsement from your bishop or other spiritual leader, though there is an exemption from that requirement under certain conditions. BYU recently tweaked the exemption process a bit, which apparently is giving FreeBYU the excuse it needs to declare victory. And for all us dummies who don't know what FreeBYU is....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 6 minutes ago, MormonGator said: And for all us dummies who don't know what FreeBYU is....? They're the numbskulls that made the complaint that initiated the investigation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 32 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said: numbskulls And JAG continues his verbal rampage... Not that I disapprove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 So these cats go to BYU knowing the rules then deliberately try to ignore them? That doesn't make any sense. Before anyone says "Pot calling kettle!" remember that I never went to BYU for that very reason-I don't want to live by their appearance code rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 16 minutes ago, MormonGator said: So these cats go to BYU knowing the rules then deliberately try to ignore them? That doesn't make any sense. Remember we are talking about some special snowflakes here... The group that thinks that if the world doesn't work they way they want it to they sue and get the courts to make it do so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, estradling75 said: Remember we are talking about some special snowflakes here... I'm pretty special too. I have an aura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 This case reminds me of the law that was being proposed in California to withdraw any government monies from schools that "discriminated" on the basis of religion. Obviously, that would be nearly all religious schools. It also reminds me of the Trinity Western case in Canada. Two province's barristers associations have banned Trinity graduates from practicing law--claiming that since students sign an honor code, agreeing not to engage in sex outside of heterosexual marriage, that they would, by default, be unable to fairly represent LGBT clients. Fortunately, the California law was dropped. Unfortunately, Trinity Western seems to be losing its appeals. Blackmarch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 8 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said: This case reminds me of the law that was being proposed in California to withdraw any government monies from schools that "discriminated" on the basis of religion. Obviously, that would be nearly all religious schools. At the time I went to BYU, the school did get some government funds. But it was a very small percentage. And from what I knew of it, the funds may have only been for specific research projects that the school was hired to do. Since then I've heard that the school no longer receives any government funding. But I haven't seen any backup for that claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Carborendum said: At the time I went to BYU, the school did get some government funds. But it was a very small percentage. And from what I knew of it, the funds may have only been for specific research projects that the school was hired to do. Since then I've heard that the school no longer receives any government funding. But I haven't seen any backup for that claim. They do, however, accept payment via student Pell grants and federally subsidized loans; which can theoretically be tied to similar conditions. IIRC, that was the elephant in the room with the Bob Jones University case. The school could probably do without the tax exemption--but they couldn't do without all those students whose tuition was ultimately being paid, or lent, by Uncle Sam. Edited August 18, 2016 by Just_A_Guy LeSellers and Blackmarch 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 What's especially irrigating is that government-backed student loans are generally issued by private banks. The government is like a co-signer, in case the student defaults. Nevertheless, that's the only tie it takes. LeSellers and Blackmarch 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said: What's especially irrigating None of the wise-cracks I thought of seemed wise. Sunday21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 On August 18, 2016 at 2:37 PM, zil said: None of the wise-cracks I thought of seemed wise. I know how you feel! zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 On August 18, 2016 at 11:09 AM, MormonGator said: So these cats go to BYU knowing the rules then deliberately try to ignore them? That doesn't make any sense. Before anyone says "Pot calling kettle!" remember that I never went to BYU for that very reason-I don't want to live by their appearance code rules. No idea how thoroughly students read the disclosure statements and etc... Before signing. But id wager its mostly a type of entitlement culture... Especially if someone turns away from the church, once a person does that, rarely do they keep respect for the church. At that point anything church related probably seems small to them, whereas they still take their college degrees seriously. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 19 minutes ago, Blackmarch said: No idea how thoroughly students read the disclosure statements and etc... Before signing. But id wager its mostly a type of entitlement culture... Especially if someone turns away from the church, once a person does that, rarely do they keep respect for the church. At that point anything church related probably seems small to them, whereas they still take their college degrees seriously. Great points my friend. And you are so right, I've rarely seen a former LDS without a chip on their shoulder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 So, you are getting 1/2 tuition, and you want what? I mean if you really want to leave the church, can't you just wait until you leave school. Seems like it's just as deceitful either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 6 minutes ago, bytebear said: Seems like it's just as deceitful either way. Perhaps. Sometimes it's deceitful and sometimes it's due to honest disagreements with the church or the church teachings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Fine, but if your disagreements are such that you are willing to walk away, you should live with the consequences of that choice. Blackmarch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 10 minutes ago, bytebear said: Fine, but if your disagreements are such that you are willing to walk away, you should live with the consequences of that choice. Yup, I agree. You are free to choose your actions but not free to choose the consequences of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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