I can think of only 2 reasons why men would want polygamy

[NeedleinA]

11 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

In fairness,  I don't think you can project the above graph backwards through time and show a smooth rise in marriage ages since the 1800s.  

10 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

It is easy to perhaps see where global marriage ages are headed and perhaps where they have been.  

Agreed. I wouldn't/wasn't trying to suggest we use a 35 year sampling period to go all the way back to the 1800's. If we followed the United Nation pace of increase and worked it backwards to the 1800s some of the women would have been infants when they were married.

[Guest MormonGator]

11 hours ago, Eowyn said:

Especiaally when you feed them.

Isn't that the truth? When you decide that you can't help yourself, throw your hands up and declare victimhood status you are bound to your bad habits forever. It could be thinking about polygamy and being obsessed with it. It could be drinking or drugs. Anything really.

[Sunday21]

So glad as an unmarried female that Poligamy is off the table. Imagine feeling nervous that the husband of your friend was about to pop the question. Shudder. I have a dear friend who I rarely see. She lives in another part of the country. Whenever she or I are travelling for work I always try to see her sans hubby. The poor woman suffers from the delusion that someone might steal hubby away. In fact, we call him Mr Potato Head. Even her Mormon friends can't stand him. We grit our teeth a lot. This couple have a rule that neither of them are allowed to be alone with a member of the opposiate gender. Good rule. The sisters and and I might kill him!

[classylady]

On August 18, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Zarahemla said:

After that whole episode where it seemed like I was obsessed with polygamy, I realized in men's minds there's usually only 1 of 2 reasons why men would want polygamy in the first place. These reasons are:

1. More women to open your heart to. This was the reason for me thinking about it. You love all your children equally and all your family equally hopefully, and having multiple spouses means you'd open your heart to love many different people and be showered with love. As someone who's never had a girl love me it would seem like bliss to have so many people show love and be in your heart.

 

The reality of polygamy, for both men and women, is not all that easy. The love you imagine there would be as mentioned in your above quote, in this mortal sphere of imperfection, is and was not as simple as you think. In my opinion, it is a sacrifice for both sexes.

For men, the sacrifice is several fold. Two of them being that of maintaining the peace between the wives and children, and sacrificing his financial means to several different households. True, these are all his households, but the more family he has to provide for, the less he has for himself and each individual person. Can you imagine buying shoes for more than 15 children? Plus, food and clothing for all your wives and children? In most polygamous relationships the women each had their own home. Or there was a large enough home where each wife had their own area of the house. If a man had three wives like my great-great grandfather, he built three homes. So, he had to buy property for three different homes, and then build three different houses. Each house had to be fairly equal in size, because if it wasn't, one of the wives would feel like he was playing favoritism. My great-great grandfather's brother also was in a polygamous relationship. There is a journal entry where he bought a sack full of beans. He had to individually count out the beans one-by-one into equal piles, so each wife got the exact same amount of beans. I can't imagine that being the most enjoyable way of having to live.

I think of my oldest son when he found out his wife was expecting their sixth child. He nearly had a break down. Their finances are tight, and he is wondering how in the world he is going to provide for all his children. Most people, nowadays, stop at 2 or 3 kids. They feel they can't afford any more than that. Imagine having a "quiver full" of children that you are responsible for. It would be hard! And, many men in the church were not extremely rich back in the 1800s. When I read my ancestor's journals they struggled to provide for their families and struggled to maintain goodwill between their wives.

Traveling between the different homes back then was not an easy 5 or 10 minute drive. It would often take many hours. Another one of my ancestors, when he was old, chose to live the remainder of his days with his first wife in the city. His second wife, my great-grandmother, lived on a farm in the country and her children were much younger than the children from the first wife. How did my great-grandfather make this decision? I know it was not an easy one. But, he was old, and medical help was more readily available if he lived in the city rather than the country. Was this a sacrifice for both of them? Yes, it was. He loved all his children and the children from the second wife were young and needed him. His children with his first wife were mostly grown. But, decisions had to be made. He was in poor health. I'm sure he agonized about this. This is not an easy lifestyle!

For women, polygamy is such an emotional issue. You cannot remove emotion from the equation. In my reading of marriage counseling books, women have the need to feel like they are number one in their husband's life. How can a woman feel like she is number one when her husband has more than one wife? How can true intimacy be had between the couple when the husband cannot share everything with his wife. It would not be appropriate to share intimate details of one spouse with another spouse. And, women are curious. They would want to know details. Plus, they would wonder--do you love her more than me? Does she do xyz? Again, this would be so hard--for both men and women.

Even our ancient prophets in the Old Testament had issues with polygamy. In the bible we read of Jacob's wives, Leah and Rachel. In Genesis chapter 29 we read of Leah's heartache because she felt Jacob loved Rachel more than her. Leah and Rachel were sisters. I'm sure they loved each other, but still there were hurt feelings.

30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. 31 ¶And when the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. 32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the Lord hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me. 33 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the Lord hath heard that I was hated, he hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon. 34 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi. 35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the Lord: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing."

My heart aches for Leah when I read this. We also know of Sarah, Abraham's wife and their issues.  Genesis chapter 21: "9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman, in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

As we can see this has never been an easy law to follow. Both men and women are imperfect and bring into the equation their own issues. When I read my ancestor's journals, I realize that they, both men and women, had to have a lot of faith to make it work.

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2016 by classylady

[Guest]

On 8/20/2016 at 8:46 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

In fairness,  I don't think you can project the above graph backwards through time and show a smooth rise in marriage ages since the 1800s.  My understanding is that average marriage ages diminished significantly around WW2, and then started creeping upwards again.  "Underaged" marriages certainly happened in the 19th century without legal consequences and at a higher rate than now; but even then they weren't exactly the norm.

And with additional fairness we'd also have to say that while underage marriages weren't within the standard deviation of the average age (which is very similar to the early 1900s) the frequency was high enough that few thought it a scandal to find such young brides either.

My main point being that the average is just one number in the overall analysis.  There's much more to the story.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Guest

[kapikui]

A businessman  an artist and an engineer were discussing marital fidelity and whether or not it was acceptable for a man to have a mistress. Thr businessman argued that it was never proper. The artist said that it was probably wrong,  but if he absolutely needed it as a man he should at least have the decency to allow his wife to remain in blissful ignorance. The engineer said that not only should a man have a wife and a mistress, but they should know about each other.  That way he can tell his wife that he's with his mistress and his mistress that he's with his wife and then he can go to the lab and get some work done. 

The same might be said for video games, sporting events, hunting, fishing etc.  

[Guest]

Reading the description in Rough Stone Rolling and how Joseph didn't love his other wives and how upset Emma was. Ya it's been confirmed. Monogamy for me. I'm so embarrassed I was ever hoping for or obsessed with polygamy. Sorry everyone, I have sinned.

[Guest]

My main focus for marriage is eternal love.

[Guest]

The guy who I claimed worships Joseph Smith was the one that got polygamy into my head in the first place, and whenever I would get it out of my head he would get it back into my head. I cut him off from contact since he was damaging my brain thinker.

[Vort]

On 8/19/2016 at 4:53 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

I could easily be wrong; but I think the "evidence" for an older Joseph mostly boils down to third-century (and later) authors who believed in Mary's perpetual virginity and explained the "siblings" of Jesus mentioned in scripture as being from a prior marriage of Joseph.  He most likely was several years older than Mary, but probably not much past twenty.

Though he was obviously dead by the time Jesus was 34, which might support the "old Joseph" theory.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Zarahemla said:

The guy who I claimed worships Joseph Smith was the one that got polygamy into my head in the first place, and whenever I would get it out of my head he would get it back into my head. I cut him off from contact since he was damaging my brain thinker.

Probably wise.

Three of my four grandparents had multiple polygamous roots; one grandmother was actually a daughter of the second wife. People today have some weird idea that polygamy was about keeping a harem for the oversexed husband. While sex was certainly a vitally important part of the deal (what with the reason for plural marriage being to "raise up seed" and all), this view is just silly, a result of our own cultural myopia and the ever-present danger of assigning modern motives to ancient actions.

The truth is, polygamy was hard for all involved, men and women. The idea of some old lecher lusting after young flesh is mostly just so much anti-Mormon garbage. It probably happened, but from what I have read and heard, that was not anything like the norm. These people were making huge sacrifices of comfort and intimacy so that they could live the way God had commanded them. Deep spiritual marital intimacy and "best-friends" couples were simply not part of the common reality of polygamy. Husband and wife tended to have a much more business-like relationship than we like to idolize in marriage today. Plural wives fought and complained over unequal division of resources, and not so much with who got to spend the night with hubby.

Save your opinions on plural marriage until you've done some reading on it. It likely was not very much like you think it was.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Probably wise.

Three of my four grandparents had multiple polygamous roots; one grandmother was actually a daughter of the second wife. People today have some weird idea that polygamy was about keeping a harem for the oversexed husband. While sex was certainly a vitally important part of the deal (what with the reason for plural marriage being to "raise up seed" and all), this view is just silly, a result of our own cultural myopia and the ever-present danger of assigning modern motives to ancient actions.

The truth is, polygamy was hard for all involved, men and women. The idea of some old lecher lusting after young flesh is mostly just so much anti-Mormon garbage. It probably happened, but from what I have read and heard, that was not anything like the norm. These people were making huge sacrifices of comfort and intimacy so that they could live the way God had commanded them. Deep spiritual marital intimacy and "best-friends" couples were simply not part of the common reality of polygamy. Husband and wife tended to have a much more business-like relationship than we like to idolize in marriage today. Plural wives fought and complained over unequal division of resources, and not so much with who got to spend the night with hubby.

Save your opinions on plural marriage until you've done some reading on it. It likely was not very much like you think it was.

Ya it was crazy. I never even thought about polygamy until the beginning of 2015 when he planted it in my head. It's like if someone were to plant a porn addiction in your brain and it'd take you a year and a half to overcome it. That's what it felt like. Oh pretend for my example that you weren't the type to look at porn.

[yjacket]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Husband and wife tended to have a much more business-like relationship than we like to idolize in marriage today.

It has been like that for the majority of recorded history.  Marriage for "love", "true love", etc. is very much a modern phenomena. Not to say that romantic love didn't happen in the past-just that romantic love was very much out of the norm.

Arraigned marriages were very common and honestly the older I've gotten the more I have to say there is a certain appeal to arraigned marriages. When you are younger and stricken by the "love bug" one can make some very stupid mistakes.  Having a parent or trusted guardian help guide that decision could work out very well and help solve a lot of heartache.  It's just the simple fact that after being married for 20 years a parent can see pretty quickly what relationships would work well and which ones wouldn't. Experience is a great teacher.

[Larry Cotrell]

There are many verses in the Book of Mormon that blatantly forbid polygamy-Jacob 1:15, Jacob 2:24, Jacob 2:27, Mosiah 11:2, Ether 10:5-just to name a few. So why did many of the early church leaders such as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young practice polygamy.

[Larry Cotrell]

There are many verses in the Book of Mormon that blatantly forbid polygamy-Jacob 1:15, Jacob 2:24, Jacob 2:27, Mosiah 11:2, Ether 10:5-just to name a few. So why did many of the early church leaders such as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young practice polygamy?

Edited August 29, 2016 by Larry Cotrell
Incorrect Grammar

[Guest]

Jacob 2:30

Quote

 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

There are many verses in the Book of Mormon that blatantly forbid polygamy-Jacob 1:15, Jacob 2:24, Jacob 2:27, Mosiah 11:2, Ether 10:5-just to name a few. So why did many of the early church leaders such as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young practice polygamy?

In addition to Eowyn's quote. there is also the treatment of women in each of those verses.  Many reasons why polygamy was practiced in the past was for quite sexist and hedonistic reasons.  It is this manner of practice that the Lord does not approve of and forbids.  It is this reason why Muslims who practice it even today are held under condemnation before the Lord. And some in the pre-Manifesto years even practiced it that way.  But they were often found and disciplined for it.  

Our treatment of women in those days, particularly those in plural marriages is never given enough credit.  For one thing, in many polygyny-cultures, women cannot divorce their husbands -- not in a practical sense -- and never without severe penalties.  But Brigham Young specifically said that he would never deny a woman a writ of divorcement from a plural marriage.  And there were many other concessions made to the women of the era because it was understood that it would be a difficult thing for many of them.

Some found the practice to be somewhat liberating -- for the women.  Women took turns getting education while the others took care of families and housework.

The details of the practice were quite different than almost any others that we hear of which were otherwise known as abominations.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Guest

[Larry Cotrell]

Thank you for your replies,

However, one thing still is not clear to me: Why would God command Joseph Smith to practice polygamy but call it an abomination (Jacob 2:24) for someone else to practice? 

[Just_A_Guy]

23 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Thank you for your replies,

However, one thing still is not clear to me: Why would God command Joseph Smith to practice polygamy but call it an abomination (Jacob 2:24) for someone else to practice? 

The problem in the instances you cite wasn't the practice per se; it was the underlying motives and the lack of divine authorization.  The possibility of its being authorized in other instances at least for the purpose of raising up seed, is acknowledged in Jacob 2:30; as Eowyn has already pointed out.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Thank you for your replies,

However, one thing still is not clear to me: Why would God command Joseph Smith to practice polygamy but call it an abomination (Jacob 2:24) for someone else to practice? 

I believe we had almost simultaneous posts.  I'd ask you to look at my post as a possible explanation.

[Guest]

If polygamy was commanded to Joseph to raise up seed how come he didn't have any children with his plural wives?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

If polygamy was commanded to Joseph to raise up seed how come he didn't have any children with his plural wives?

Someone pointed out before... how could a prophet expect people to follow a commandment that he himself wasn't following? 

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Zarahemla said:

If polygamy was commanded to Joseph to raise up seed how come he didn't have any children with his plural wives?

If Brian Hales' paradigm is correct, then part of the answer to your question would be that Joseph--either out of consideration for Emma's feelings, or due to his own sense of revulsion--started out (after Fanny Alger) by "going through the motions", entering into platonic "eternity-only" sealings with women who were already civilly married.  Only after the third visit of the "angel with a drawn sword", in early 1843, did he start routinely entering polygamous marriages with procreation in mind--thus, new wives during this period tended to be younger women who had never been married. 

So, that's only about a one-year window to sire children, and as Nauvoo's leading citizen it was no small feat to meet a polygamous wife by night unobserved.  And if Smith, towards the end of 1843, dissolved other polygamous marriages the way he dissolved his marriage to the Partridge sisters; then that window of opportunity gets even smaller.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

It's just a whole confusing practice that I wish the church never got involved in.

[Larry Cotrell]

" 23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."-Mark 22:23-30 KJV

This sounds like Jesus is saying there won't be marriage after this life.

Please correct me if I'm wrong