Potential convert who feels terribly conflicted

[estradling75]

11 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@zil  I agree with the importance of being a good guest--especially in spiritual environs.  It's just too easy for me to imagine many people having no exposure to the belief in eternal matter, assuming that God-creation is out of nothing. Thus, when they hear the doctrine of Premortality they might presume that LDS do not believe in God-as-Creator. In past years I have had my own conversations with LDS in which I asked, "Doesn't that make God more of a fashioner or inventor, rather than I creator?"  I must have been cautious enough in my wording, as I do not recall come across abrasively, and I got a response very similar to @jerome1232's.

Undoubtedly you were... 

 

In all the usage of the word Creator, or creation... it is only and exclusively with God (and ex-nihilo creation) that the idea of from nothing has any traction.  In all other instance Creation/Creator is synonymous with organizer, fashioner, inventor.  Does the fact that they use preexisting stuff somehow make what they did less important, less valuable, less creative?

  The LDS faith simply doesn't change the definition and usage of the word just because we are talking about God.

[prisonchaplain]

I'll tell a story that gets immediate laughs and applause in traditional Christian circles (where creation ex-nihilo is assumed), which makes little sense in LDS thinking.

 

There once was an atheist scientist, who decided upon an experiment.  He would pray one time to the non-existent God, and thus prove, at least to himself, once and for all, that God does not exist. 

God, if you are out there, I've got news for you.  We've mapped human DNA, and we can now create life.  So, you can go away now.

Suddenly the scientist finds himself in a formless void.  From out of the darkness he hears a voice.

Really?  You can create life?  That's great.  Show me, and if you succeed, I'll leave.

The scientist begins to look around, and out in the distance he sees a pile of dirt.  So, he starts walking towards it.

Where are you going, scientist?

I'm going to use that dirt over there to create human life, like you asked me to.

The last words he ever heard were from God, who said:  Get your own dirt.

[jerome1232]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Meanwhile, I'd like to see one of your paintings.

I actually have one! I made it at a date night with my wife where they walk you through a painting that everyone does, it was a lot of fun and it didn't turn out half bad in my humble opinion.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, idontknow said:

Nothing can possibly be easier to understand and simple-minded than the belief that God is a really big human being living inside the universe.

This just goes to show you that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, jerome1232 said:

I actually have one! I made it at a date night with my wife where they walk you through a painting that everyone does, it was a lot of fun and it didn't turn out half bad in my humble opinion.

During drawing class (the glories of a liberal arts education) I spent three and a half hours once trying to draw an egg that was seated on a white, crumpled sheet.  The result proves that the opposite of creation ex nihilo is possible:  I managed to take pre-existing material and turn it into nothing. 

[summer]

Hi! You have gotten wonderful replies on your question (I haven't had a chance to read all of them) so I just wanted to share something else with you. This is just me personally and how I look at things...there are some things that I don't completely understand when it comes to this beautiful Gospel, but in my mind that is what make it true and right! If everything made sense and I had no questions then I wouldn't have to have faith...if everything made sense to me that would be too easy and in my mind if it was all easy and laid out perfectly so there was never a need to wonder then where would the faith come in? I too have had too many personal spiritual experiences that I KNOW without a doubt that this Gospel is true. It brings purpose and meaning into every aspect of my life.

Edited September 13, 2016 by summer

[askandanswer]

On 9/3/2016 at 9:07 AM, idontknow said:

I am thinking about converting to Mormonism based on a religious experience...

So a few months ago I had a really strong religious experience while reading the Book of Mormon.  I never had such an overpowering experience in my life.  I just can’t stop thinking about that experience ever since it happened.  It has haunted me every day since it occurred and I am sure it will continue to haunt me in the future. 

In addition to this religious experience, I also really like the practical side of Mormonism.  I like the fact that Mormons have a really strong sense of community and have a far more active church life in comparison to the non-Mormon churches I visited.  I've seen quite a few people complain about the fact that the Mormon Church is so demanding.  But that's one of the things I like about it.  I want a church that is going to play a large role in my life because nothing is more important to me than further developing my relationship with my Creator.    I’m a little hesitant to admit this but I also like the fact that there's much less of an emphasis on Hell in Mormonism, too.    

Now the problem I have with fully accepting Mormonism is that I just can't bring myself to accept the Mormon belief that God is a 'perfected' human being who lives on another planet near the star Kolob.  I personally believe in the classical theistic conception of God – a disembodied spirit who is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and eternal.  And unfortunately a big human being just doesn’t fit such a description.  What’s even worse about the Mormon concept of God is that I can’t even call him my “creator”.  Instead, my spirit is co-eternal with His.  So if I am a Mormon then I can’t even say God is my “creator”, he's just the “molder” of my pre-existing “intelligence”.

So my question is does a Mormon *have* to believe God is literally a human being?  What is the Mormon basis for asserting that God is a ‘perfected’ human being anyways?  I feel so conflicted right now.  The religious experience I had and the time I spent in the church feels like it is telling me to do one thing that conflicts with my deeply held beliefs about the nature of God.  I don’t know what to do other than to cry. 

 

 

I haven't read all the posts, so what I am about to say here might have been said already. If you can recall what you were doing that led to you having the spiritual experience with the Book of Mormon and coming to feel that it is true: whatever led to that experience, do you think you could also do the same thing in relation beliefs about God and understanding His true nature?

[unixknight]

I'm just trying to figure out why teachings from denominations that didn't trigger the strong religious experience seem to carry more weight than the one that did. 

[Sunday21]

13 hours ago, unixknight said:

I'm just trying to figure out why teachings from denominations that didn't trigger the strong religious experience seem to carry more weight than the one that did. 

Beautiful!

[chasingthewind]

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 9:24 AM, zil said:

It is really illogical for a non-believer to tell a believer what said believer believes.

I'm a believer (a Mormon).  I know that we (Mormons) teach and believe that there is a creator - God our Father in Heaven.  And actually, there are two.  The second is Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Your first mistake is your statement that it is possible for there to be multiple creators.  A God who is truly omnipotent and sovereign must be the sole creator of the world.

Your second mistake is the belief that there are any "creators" in Mormonism.  Your 'god' didn't actually create the material that constitutes the world.  Instead the material that constitutes the world existed alongside your 'god' from eternity, and your 'god' merely rearranged it in a new pattern.  Thus, there are no creators in Mormonism. 

In fact, your 'god' - as a material body - is actually nothing more than a part of that pre-existing matter.  Thus Mormonism entails that there is just matter re-arranging itself for eternity - a view known as materialism.  So who is the real non-believer here?  On closer inspection, Mormonism turns out to be form of atheism.

 

Edited September 14, 2016 by idontknow

[Jane_Doe]

9 minutes ago, idontknow said:

Your first mistake is your statement that it is possible for there to be multiple creators.  A God who is truly omnipotent and sovereign must be the sole creator of the world.

Do you not believe the Father commissioned the world's creation and Jesus Christ did it?  That is the mainstream Christian belief, and the LDS one also.

9 minutes ago, idontknow said:

Your second mistake is the belief that there are any "creators" in Mormonism.  Your 'god' didn't actually create the material that constitutes the world.  Instead the material that constitutes the world existed alongside your 'god' from eternity.  Thus, there are no creators in Mormonism. 

Again, this is a false statement.  "Creation" is not constrained to "only creation ex nhilio".  In fact, the Bible doesn't say anything about specifying ex nihilio creation.   

9 minutes ago, idontknow said:

So who is the real non-believer here?  On closer inspection, Mormonism turns out to be form of atheism.

 

This is a false statement and very disrespectful.  It's ok that you don't agree with LDS beliefs, but please be respectful.  

[chasingthewind]

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 3:57 PM, estradling75 said:

Undoubtedly you were... 

 

In all the usage of the word Creator, or creation... it is only and exclusively with God (and ex-nihilo creation) that the idea of from nothing has any traction.  In all other instance Creation/Creator is synonymous with organizer, fashioner, inventor.  Does the fact that they use preexisting stuff somehow make what they did less important, less valuable, less creative?

  The LDS faith simply doesn't change the definition and usage of the word just because we are talking about God.

Creation is exclusively an act of God; not man.  Humans do not create anything.  They are themselves created beings.

And yes, this makes all the difference in the world, because if the universe was not created then you basically have what amounts to atheism.

[Jane_Doe]

5 minutes ago, idontknow said:

Creation is exclusively an act of God; not man.  Humans do not create anything.  They are themselves created beings.

And yes, this makes all the difference in the world, because if the universe was not created then you basically have what amounts to atheism.

Do you realize that the philosophy you are promoting here is from pagan philosophers? 

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, idontknow said:

Creation is exclusively an act of God; not man.  Humans do not create anything.  They are themselves created beings.

And yes, this makes all the difference in the world, because if the universe was not created then you basically have what amounts to atheism.

And what you have is a failure to understand basic English words...

The word Creator is not as narrowly defined as you wish it were.

Also please note the Rules of this site that you agreed to when you created your account...  Continued attacks on the LDS Faith will get you booted.  (Calling, declaring, or otherwise implying that we are all Atheists is an attack)

[Guest MormonGator]

59 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

 

Also please note the Rules of this site that you agreed to when you created your account...  Continued attacks on the LDS Faith will get you booted.

Speaking as a convert, there are times when we say things things might be offensive to LDS without us knowing it. I'm sure I've said things that are offensive or could be viewed as an attack on the faith without knowing it. If I have, I sincerely apologize for it, for sure. 

[zil]

@idontknow: My original recommendations stand, should you wish to pursue study.  The principles therein are valid regardless of what you want to study (i.e. which religion, denomination, science, art, whatever).  Continued debate here (on the nature of God) will be fruitless.  I assume you intend to continue your search for a faith you can be active in, and that you are seeking to draw closer to God.  If this is your desire, I wish you success in your efforts.

[estradling75]

50 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Speaking as a convert, there are times when we say things things might be offensive to LDS without us knowing it. I'm sure I've said things that are offensive or could be viewed as an attack on the faith without knowing it. If I have, I sincerely apologize for it, for sure. 

Sure...  But would you have ever told a group who claims to believe in God that they were really atheist?  I mean I totally get the potential for misunderstanding, but I think it safe to draw the line at someone calling us a bunch of liars.

[bytebear]

I wonder how new parents would feel if someone said "you didn't create that child.  It already existed in pre-existing material that you just organized into a baby." 

[bytebear]

A couple other points.  There is only one Father of our spirits.  And there is only one creator of the physical world, Jehovah who we know is the Lord Jesus Christ.  But, the odd thing is this notion that there must only be one supreme being, when "God" is a singular that represents a plurality.  Similar to the word "family", a singular that represents a collection of persons.  And the notion that God even lives within the confines of our universe is not even true.  God is infinite.  The Father's creations are infinite.  But even if there are other worlds, or other universes independent from our own, that doesn't mean they diminish infinity.  Because in math, infinity + infinity = infinity.

[jerome1232]

@idontknow Don't sit and dictate to me what I believe. Don't ever tell someone else what it is they believe. That's not how interfaith dialogue works. The second you move from "I see it this way" to "my logic dictates that you believe x" you are not seeking dialogue, understanding, or sincerely trying to understand another faith. No one tells me what I believe but me. I believe that God is my creator. That is my belief regardless of what you *think* it is I believe.

[Guest]

On 9/12/2016 at 8:02 AM, idontknow said:

There is no creator in Mormonism.

On 9/12/2016 at 8:01 AM, idontknow said:

Nothing can possibly be easier to understand and simple-minded than the belief that God is a really big human being living inside the universe.

12 hours ago, idontknow said:

Creation is exclusively an act of God; not man.  Humans do not create anything.  They are themselves created beings.

And yes, this makes all the difference in the world, because if the universe was not created then you basically have what amounts to atheism.

12 hours ago, idontknow said:

Your first mistake is your statement that it is possible for there to be multiple creators.  A God who is truly omnipotent and sovereign must be the sole creator of the world.

Your second mistake is the belief that there are any "creators" in Mormonism.  Your 'god' didn't actually create the material that constitutes the world.  Instead the material that constitutes the world existed alongside your 'god' from eternity, and your 'god' merely rearranged it in a new pattern.  Thus, there are no creators in Mormonism. 

In fact, your 'god' - as a material body - is actually nothing more than a part of that pre-existing matter.  Thus Mormonism entails that there is just matter re-arranging itself for eternity - a view known as materialism.  So who is the real non-believer here?  On closer inspection, Mormonism turns out to be form of atheism.

If you already knew, why bother asking a question?  Why say you were "terribly conflicted".  Why call yourself "Idontknow"? Oh, of course, deception.  I wonder whose tool that is.