Signs of the Times

[zil]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I know you know that He knows.  But what you don't know is that I know you don't know that I don't know whether He might know or not.

I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

[Blackmarch]

Signs are given to give the faithful hope and encouragement and the lazy and wicked some incentive to repent.. Or be damned.

[Guest]

If the Cubs win the World Series then Armageddon is nigh.

[Traveler]

 

There is great misunderstanding because the world does not understand symbolism.  I have already posted that there is no single hour or day for the earth but there is more to the symbolism.  Anciently calendars were very important - not so much for knowing the day but to understand prophesy and to keep covenants.  The concept of covenant has largely been lost in the religious community.  In our day we have a constitution by which the laws of our society is governed.  In ancient kingdom the laws were based in covenants.  When a king spoke, in order for his words to become law - he would have to make a covenant with his subjects according to his word.  It was the glue of stability. 

According to the covenants of ancient Israel each year would begin a covenant for that year.  This new covenant would be celebrated by a feast of all Israel.  Part of the feast would be bread and wine.  Think of the idea of a feast at the coming of Christ.  The emblems of the sacrament symbolize this feast.  This feast was important as is the symbolism of the feast as we worship by remembering Jesus and renewing our covenants.  Are you all getting a picture.  There is also other symbolism in preparing for the feast in the parable of the 10 virgins and their preparation of oil for their lamps.

As the day of the new year came close there were signs in the heaven.  First there was the sign of the equinox - the new year could not begin until the sun had been in equinox.  Then there must be a new moon following the equinox.  The new year would then begin after the Sabbath.  This day is known as the day of the sun or Sunday.  It is interesting that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday.  Do we appreciate this symbolism?  Not as an event some 2,000 years ago but as a prophetic symbolism of what is to be?  But before the new year could come there had to be two expert witnesses that would come before a judge and testify that the sign of the equinox and the new moon had taken place.  When the signs had been witnessed than messengers would be dispatched throughout Israel that would light fires on hills - these fires in the night before were the final symbol that the time had come and when the sun rose designating the Sunday and the new covenant - the feast would take place.

Because there were signs for the equinox and new moon - anyone that knew the signs would know of the new year feast and when it would be.  If a traveler were to come to Israel just about anyone could tell them when the new year feast would be.  But sometimes the sky would fill with storm clouds and block the sun and the moon.  It would be impossible to see the signs.  When this happened there was a saying in Israel concerning when the feast would take place - the saying was, "No man knows the hour or the day, not even the angles (messengers) of heaven but G-d (the king of Israel and the proctor of the covenant) only knows.   But dispute the storm clouds there were "experts" that were called prophets that would determine that the signs had taken place though obstructed by the storm clouds and the fires would be lit and the feast of the new year covenant would occur.

I find the symbolism that surrounds the feast most interesting - especially that in order to be prepared for the feast when the storm clouds gather - which they will in the last days - that only those that wait on the living prophets will be ready with the oil in their lamps.  The prophetic nature symbolizes not just the coming of the King and the new covenant - but that it will come in a time when many will think the scripture are enough - but that storm clouds will obstruct and cause doubt.  And only those that believe in and follow the living prophets among us will be prepared and ready when the hour and the day actually comes.

 

The Traveler

 

[CV75]

21 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Why would He know now if He didn't know then? Why would God have recently decided to tell Him?

I'm thinking that while Jesus grew from grace to grace throughout His mortal life, He still knew less while in mortality than after He ascended to His Father and received all that the Father has (Philippians 2:6-10, D&C 20:24).

[Anddenex]

On September 7, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Traveler said:

 

How much advance notice was Nephi given in the Book of Mormon to the first advent of Christ? 

As little as I know and understand - when two prophets are killed and left on the streets of Jerusalem - I will be able to tell you or anyone else that wants to know - easily within 24 hours - when the second coming will be.

 

The Traveler

Ah Traveler, you took my thunder. I was about to say, I know one sign that gives me three days to repent and make my life right with the Lord (the last statement is just for fun about getting my life in order).

[Anddenex]

On September 7, 2016 at 1:27 PM, zil said:

Because it was after his resurrection that he received all that God has (including knowledge)?  I think it's safe to believe Christ knows everything now.

But, I'm not sure we can be sure whether Christ knew during his mortality:

In Mark 13:32, Christ includes himself in the list of people who don't know.  Compare that to Matthew 24:36 (including Joseph Smith - Matthew 24:40 ) and D&C 49:7 - Christ does not include himself in the list of people who didn't know.  So maybe he knew during mortality and maybe he didn't (or maybe he didn't at some point, and later in mortality learned it).  Who knows.  I am not overly concerned either way.

I am certain he knows now.  (Though if I'm wrong, I don't think it'll hurt anything.)

I am pretty certain he did know, even when he made that statement, or stated in another way, I believe Jehovah knew when he would be born (the signs that would proceed) as he knew the day he would die (the signs that would follow his death), and the day Jehovah will return (as he knows the signs before his return). Abraham and other prophets were revealed the beginning and then end, due to their righteousness and faith. Jehovah (Jesus), there was none more faithful than him. Yes, personally, I believe he even knew even when he made the statement as pertaining to revelation, or in other terms, the Prophets know more than they have revealed, and they also could say, "No man knows save the Son, and the Father," because the Father has commanded them not to reveal.

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Ah Traveler, you took my thunder. I was about to say, I know one sign that gives me three days to repent and make my life right with the Lord (the last statement is just for fun about getting my life in order).

 

Be careful with the 3 days buddy.  The ancients did not understand the concept of zero or fractions in their numbering system – so the day of, would be counted as one full day; even if it was just before sundown (example the death of Jesus).  It could be as shorter than 1 ½ days or 36 hours.

Since I need all the friends I can get – I want to make sure you have your repentance in order so you can help sneak me in.

 

The Traveler

[lds2]

A lot of LDS folk are confused thinking that there is only one coming and some here seem to be stuck believing that I am prophesying that something in the OP pertains to His final coming when I am talking the season we are currently in. There are many things that must happen before His final coming...and some of those the scriptures and prophets tell us will be His Signs and Wonders including.Signs in the Heavens.

The odds obviously are good that there will be another eclipse...But if one were to fall on one of His Holy Days given to us by Him in Leviticus...that could raise a flag that it could be something from Him to watch.  But then to have six lunar eclipses in a row associated with Passover in the Spring and then Tabernacles in the fall...with four solar eclipses in a row exactly on the beginning of the last four of these seasons...that should cause people to wonder I would think...not ridicule. Is it so hard to believe in divine intelligence?

 

It is important to understand that the second coming is a progressive event as described by President Benson here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SwvueHy-Jg start at 1:00 about signs in the heavens, then at 2:00 listen to his important message...at 2:25 he talks about his 4 appearances. If you can make it through without your heart being touched...

"One appearance to righteous Saints...

Another appearance to the Jews...[with seven months and then seven years of picking up garbage after]

Yet another appearance of Christ will be to the rest of the world...

Youth of Zion, do you realize you are living in the days of the fulfillment of these signs and wonders? You are among those who will see many of these prophecies fulfilled. Just as certain as was the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews, so shall these words of the Savior be certain to your generation.

We know not the day nor the hour of His coming, but of this you may feel assured: You stand close to the great day of the Lord!"

Prepare Yourself for the Great Day of the Lord, May 1982, President Ezra Taft Bensonhttps://www.lds.org/new-era/1982/05/prepare-yourself-for-the-great-day-of-the-lord?lang=eng

 

Edited September 9, 2016 by lds2

[lds2]

I personally do not believe we have a couple of hundred years before the next of His comings...

President Benson gave a talk at least twice that was quoted from by President Monson in conference where he said, “…God has saved for the final inning some of his strongest children, who will help bear off the Kingdom triumphantly. And that is where you come in, for you are the generation that must be prepared to meet your God…"

President Ezra Taft Benson, “In His Steps,” CES Fireside, Feb. 1987; “In His Steps,” BYU Devotional 1979 most of which was quoted by President Thomas S. Monson in his “Closing Remarks,” October 2009

Edited September 9, 2016 by lds2

[FogCity]

I read that the influx of new missionaries (due to the mission age change) did not equate to a similar percentage increase in convert baptisms.  For example, the LDS Church welcomed a 15% increase in its missionary force, but only a 7% increase in convert baptisms. 

I recall entering the mission field as an excited 19 year old back in the 90's.  I served a stateside mission.  It didn't take long to realize that my enthusiasm for the gospel wasn't matched by any non-members in the field.  To be perfectly honest, the few convert baptisms that we had, we had to pull and prod to get them to join, and 6 months later they had little to nothing to do with the LDS faith.   

Membership of the LDS Church is currently somewhere North of 15 million.  But, to be honest, I'd argue that a 1/3 of those listed might be on Church membership roles, but personally wouldn't consider themselves LDS.  They may have tried it out on a temporary basis, but it didn't stick.

This part of the plan of salvation has me perplexed.  LDS numbers are so small compared with the overall population of the planet that 99.5% of the people will live and die without an opportunity to hear or learn the gospel.  That seems incredibly unfair and inequitable to me.

Just another one of those things that perplexes me. 

 

[NightSG]

On 9/7/2016 at 0:19 PM, Traveler said:

As little as I know and understand - when two prophets are killed and left on the streets of Jerusalem - I will be able to tell you or anyone else that wants to know - easily within 24 hours - when the second coming will be.

Remember that they'll be preaching for years, with people trying in vain to kill them before that, so there's actually a lot more advance notice.

Unfortunately, that whole preaching for 1,260 days thing sounds like they might be Southern Baptists.  

[lds2]

41 minutes ago, FogCity said:

I read that the influx of new missionaries (due to the mission age change) did not equate to a similar percentage increase in convert baptisms.  For example, the LDS Church welcomed a 15% increase in its missionary force, but only a 7% increase in convert baptisms. 

I recall entering the mission field as an excited 19 year old back in the 90's.  I served a stateside mission.  It didn't take long to realize that my enthusiasm for the gospel wasn't matched by any non-members in the field.  To be perfectly honest, the few convert baptisms that we had, we had to pull and prod to get them to join, and 6 months later they had little to nothing to do with the LDS faith.   

Membership of the LDS Church is currently somewhere North of 15 million.  But, to be honest, I'd argue that a 1/3 of those listed might be on Church membership roles, but personally wouldn't consider themselves LDS.  They may have tried it out on a temporary basis, but it didn't stick.

This part of the plan of salvation has me perplexed.  LDS numbers are so small compared with the overall population of the planet that 99.5% of the people will live and die without an opportunity to hear or learn the gospel.  That seems incredibly unfair and inequitable to me.

Just another one of those things that perplexes me. 

 

It is painful when those we love leave, I'm sorry that some of yours have left. But when things get tough folks tend to turn to God as we see so often in the BofM. All will have their chance. We will be helping people and all those that came before them through the millennium. I'm sure the number of missionaries on the other side is vast and they have, I imagine, some pretty great technology to reach multitudes at one time. There are still 144,000 folks who will yet take the gospel to the folks remaining (after the tribulations) on the Earth as well. There are still probably a lot of years before He comes finally to all in glory and the internet is pretty far reaching today and technology seems to just keep improving. Now the calamities/tribulations themselves could effect our neck of the woods (wherever that is) at any time. But seriously, if you want to pursue your topic further could you please take the off topic post to a new thread as this is about His Signs and Wonders in the Heavens? Thanks!

Edited September 9, 2016 by lds2

[NightSG]

19 minutes ago, lds2 said:

I'm sure the number of missionaries on the other side is vast

Ah, so the whole loaves and fishes thing was just Christ practicing for when it's His turn to have them over for dinner.  

[FogCity]

2 hours ago, lds2 said:

It is painful when those we love leave, I'm sorry that some of yours have left. But when things get tough folks tend to turn to God as we see so often in the BofM. All will have their chance. We will be helping people and all those that came before them through the millennium. I'm sure the number of missionaries on the other side is vast and they have, I imagine, some pretty great technology to reach multitudes at one time. There are still 144,000 folks who will yet take the gospel to the folks remaining (after the tribulations) on the Earth as well. There are still probably a lot of years before He comes finally to all in glory and the internet is pretty far reaching today and technology seems to just keep improving. Now the calamities/tribulations themselves could effect our neck of the woods (wherever that is) at any time. But seriously, if you want to pursue your topic further could you please take the off topic post to a new thread as this is about His Signs and Wonders in the Heavens? Thanks!

sorry, I guess that post probably deserved a thread of its own

[lds2]

Tomorrow 9/11 is the Day of Atonement which makes it a full year since the Jubilee year began. I will be "watching"...I invite all believers to join me.

[pam]

59 minutes ago, lds2 said:

Tomorrow 9/11 is the Day of Atonement which makes it a full year since the Jubilee year began. I will be "watching"...I invite all believers to join me.

I thought it was October 11th and ends the eve of the 12th.

[Larry Cotrell]

24 minutes ago, pam said:

I thought it was October 11th and ends the eve of the 12th.

True, Leviticus 16:29 says " And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you"

The seventh month of the Jewish Calendar is Tishri, which starts on the second of October. Thus the tenth day of the seventh month would be equivalent to October 11/12th.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Larry Cotrell

[jerome1232]

19 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

True, Leviticus 16:29 says " And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you"

The seventh month of the Jewish Calendar is Tishri, which starts on the second of October. Thus the tenth day of the seventh month would be equivalent to October 11/12th.

I thought their months were lunar based and can kind of shift around. That's why Easter (just an example) can sometimes shift between months.

Edited September 12, 2016 by jerome1232

[zil]

6 minutes ago, jerome1232 said:

I thought their months were lunar based and can kind of shift around. That's why Easter (just an example) can sometimes shift between months.

True enough, but this year, Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) is Oct 11/12.

[Sunday21]

On September 8, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Traveler said:

 

There is great misunderstanding because the world does not understand symbolism.  I have already posted that there is no single hour or day for the earth but there is more to the symbolism.  Anciently calendars were very important - not so much for knowing the day but to understand prophesy and to keep covenants.  The concept of covenant has largely been lost in the religious community.  In our day we have a constitution by which the laws of our society is governed.  In ancient kingdom the laws were based in covenants.  When a king spoke, in order for his words to become law - he would have to make a covenant with his subjects according to his word.  It was the glue of stability. 

According to the covenants of ancient Israel each year would begin a covenant for that year.  This new covenant would be celebrated by a feast of all Israel.  Part of the feast would be bread and wine.  Think of the idea of a feast at the coming of Christ.  The emblems of the sacrament symbolize this feast.  This feast was important as is the symbolism of the feast as we worship by remembering Jesus and renewing our covenants.  Are you all getting a picture.  There is also other symbolism in preparing for the feast in the parable of the 10 virgins and their preparation of oil for their lamps.

As the day of the new year came close there were signs in the heaven.  First there was the sign of the equinox - the new year could not begin until the sun had been in equinox.  Then there must be a new moon following the equinox.  The new year would then begin after the Sabbath.  This day is known as the day of the sun or Sunday.  It is interesting that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday.  Do we appreciate this symbolism?  Not as an event some 2,000 years ago but as a prophetic symbolism of what is to be?  But before the new year could come there had to be two expert witnesses that would come before a judge and testify that the sign of the equinox and the new moon had taken place.  When the signs had been witnessed than messengers would be dispatched throughout Israel that would light fires on hills - these fires in the night before were the final symbol that the time had come and when the sun rose designating the Sunday and the new covenant - the feast would take place.

Because there were signs for the equinox and new moon - anyone that knew the signs would know of the new year feast and when it would be.  If a traveler were to come to Israel just about anyone could tell them when the new year feast would be.  But sometimes the sky would fill with storm clouds and block the sun and the moon.  It would be impossible to see the signs.  When this happened there was a saying in Israel concerning when the feast would take place - the saying was, "No man knows the hour or the day, not even the angles (messengers) of heaven but G-d (the king of Israel and the proctor of the covenant) only knows.   But dispute the storm clouds there were "experts" that were called prophets that would determine that the signs had taken place though obstructed by the storm clouds and the fires would be lit and the feast of the new year covenant would occur.

I find the symbolism that surrounds the feast most interesting - especially that in order to be prepared for the feast when the storm clouds gather - which they will in the last days - that only those that wait on the living prophets will be ready with the oil in their lamps.  The prophetic nature symbolizes not just the coming of the King and the new covenant - but that it will come in a time when many will think the scripture are enough - but that storm clouds will obstruct and cause doubt.  And only those that believe in and follow the living prophets among us will be prepared and ready when the hour and the day actually comes.

 

The Traveler

 

Really? I thought Christ rise on the Monday. Easter Monday?

[Larry Cotrell]

5 hours ago, jerome1232 said:

I thought their months were lunar based and can kind of shift around. That's why Easter (just an example) can sometimes shift between months.

Yes, the Jewish calendar is lunar. The information I gave was for this year, but it does change from year to year.

[zil]

8 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Really? I thought Christ rise on the Monday. Easter Monday?

No, crucifixion happened on a Friday, burial just before sunset on Friday (sunset being the start of the Sabbath, Saturday); was in the tomb all day Saturday, rose early in the morning on Sunday (which began at sunset Saturday).

[Traveler]

A great deal of significates has been lost in our modern calendar and no one seem to care.  For example, September means 7th month, October means 8th month, November means 9th month and December means 10th month.  In contrast the ancients went through a great deal of effort to make their calendars meaningful and relevant.  We think of our modern time as being enlightened and rational – but I wonder what future eras will think of us – I am quite sure that enlightened, rational and intelligent will not be in the mix.  I think we will be known for our violence, crime, intolerant disregard of others and an irrational fixation and pursuit of personal pleasures and individual importance.   I believe all this is the result of a trend in thinking religion has no place (or minor place) in our modern society and educational institutions.

 

The Traveler

[lds2]

Val Brinkerhoff I believe said it started at Sunday 9/11 and will continue through today.

After the diaspora the Jews were unable to start their calendar as commanded in the bible and so they went to a way of figuring the calendar untied to the priests (now dispersed) who were commanded to establish the beginning of the year based on the moon and the ripeness of the barley harvest (as the wave offering with ripe barley would have to happen soon after the beginning of the new year.) The diaspora calendar started later was convenient because you could count on dates being a certain time year after year which is not something that can be done the way the House of Israel was commanded to start the year.

This year the Sanhedrin started the year as commanded in the bible a month earlier than the diaspora calendar that you find on the internet. I am not saying their cannot be significance to Elul 29 next month as there is a reference to an "unclean" calendar in the scriptures I am told. But a friend who studies these things and has done the math said that the Day of Atonement started last night and will continue today, so I am watching...all of these dates including those this month and next month. 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2016 by lds2