Time to Stop Eating Meat?

[Third Hour]

To eat meat, or not to eat meat: that isn't the question Hamlet asked himself as he contemplated suicide, nor is it the question most members of the Church ask themselves as they dig into the latest relief society casserole — but maybe it should be. 1. We Have Access to Grains All Year Round 12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; 13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine. D&C 89 In the Word of Wisdom we are admonished to use flesh "sparingly" and not to use it unless we're in "times of winter or of cold, or famine." Today — in most developed countries — winter, cold, and famine are nearly inconsequential when it comes to the foods we choose to eat. Globalization has brought access to all foods, year round. Fruits, vegetables, and grains exist in...

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[Guest MormonGator]

Vegetarians rule. 

[NeuroTypical]

4 hours ago, ldsnet said:

And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

I know you're cutting/pasting from our modern scriptures, but take a look at the original scripture.  Take a good, close look at where the commas used to be in the original.

Yep, it's pleasing to God that meat isn't used only in times of winter.  Sounds to me like a scriptural refutation of the notion that you should only use meat in times of winter.  

(That said, I'm totally fine with people eating or not eating whatever they want, whenever they want.  Go be a vegan if you want.  Or one of those deluded folks that think organic is healthier and GMO is full of poison.  I don't care.  Just don't tell me that I'm breaking the WoW when I enjoy my summer pizza.

Edited September 7, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[zil]

11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I know you're cutting/pasting from our modern scriptures, but take a look at the original scripture.  Take a good, close look at where the commas used to be in the original.

...

Well, that's fascinating:

"Let's eat Grandma!"

"Let's eat, Grandma!"

...commas save lives.

Meanwhile, back to topic, I think the footnote for "used" (with or without the comma) is helpful: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/59.20.16-20?lang=eng#19  ...as is: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/49.18-19?lang=eng#17

Personally, I have found the scriptures are most meaningful for direction when you take the whole of them into account rather than individual verses or phrases.

I also don't find modern technology a necessarily compelling reason for why the Lord might have said only in winter / cold / famine - the art of food preservation and storage has been around for a long, long time, and I don't think (could be wrong) having sufficient calories (from other sources) in winter / cold is something unique to our  age.  (Famine, of course, would cause exception to almost any rule.)  I tend to think if it were strictly about technology, the Lord might have given us further instruction by now.  (Again, could be wrong.)  There could be other reasons (biological reasons) for eating more protein in winter / cold weather.

(That said, I also don't care what anyone else eats, as long as they don't eat (some things) while I'm watching... )

[Guest]

Quote

In the Word of Wisdom we are admonished to use flesh “sparingly” and not to use it unless we’re in “times of winter or of cold, or famine.” 

Quote

Yep, it's pleasing to God that meat isn't used only in times of winter.

I'm afraid both have a slight problem with the quote and application.

Re-read both while replacing the word "only" with "except".  In their vernacular, that was the meaning.  As in,"I hate broccoli. Only, I do like it with garlic and onion dip."  Come to think of it, I'm not sure if today's generation is even familiar with that usage.

Here's how it would look.

Quote

And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used except in times of winter...

With this substitution, the "except" reads the same with or without the comma.

Quote

and why to be used in famine? because all domesticated animals would naturally die, and may as well be made use of by man, as not,

--Hyrum Smith 1842

This was an excerpt from a much larger address on the Word of Wisdom.  Without modern agriculture and factory farms, winter is a natural time of famine for most animals. Many would die anyway if man wasn't there.  So, why not kill them for food?

So, it isn't that it is unhealthy (although it isn't healthy to eat too much meat).  It is the idea of slaughtering animals needlessly that Hyrum was pointing out.  We need to "care" for our stewardship, not waste it.  This is a particularly difficult question to ponder when considering that if it weren't for man, most of these animals wouldn't even be born.  Many breeds of cattle would be extinct or have never been bred in the first place.  Difficult to think about.

It also lends itself to the idea that milk and eggs should be fine.  Nothing is being killed in that process.  

So, we get the idea that we are to use meat sparingly all the time, but we can eat more during winter because of the moral issues involved.  We are also encouraged to go vegetarian, but are not constrained to do so.  This was the final conclusion of the article.  But I do disagree with the paraphrasing of the statement the author made in the quote I pasted above.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Guest

[unixknight]

I don't understand why, with all the rules we already have to observe, some people go looking for more.  If the intent was for us to not eat meat then the First Presidency would have made a clear statement to that effect.

As I recently reminded someone else on this forum, you don't get to make up your own sins.

[pam]

I have always said that if there is no steak in heaven, I'm just not going.

[zil]

4 minutes ago, pam said:

I have always said that if there is no steak in heaven, I'm just not going.

Put some Daddy Hinkle's on that and cook it over charcoal or wood (no gas, no lighter fluid!) and I'm already in heaven...

[gloosle]

18 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I know you're cutting/pasting from our modern scriptures, but take a look at the original scripture.  Take a good, close look at where the commas used to be in the original.

 

Wow, this is really interesting. Looking back at the older text always brings to light potentially different meanings. I think this is a great example of that. But of course, we use the most recent edition of D&C which lacks the commas. I'm not discrediting the original by any means, but you have to wonder why they eventually chose to omit the commas in our modern scripture. 

[Maureen]

41 minutes ago, gloosle said:

Wow, this is really interesting. Looking back at the older text always brings to light potentially different meanings. I think this is a great example of that. But of course, we use the most recent edition of D&C which lacks the commas. I'm not discrediting the original by any means, but you have to wonder why they eventually chose to omit the commas in our modern scripture. 

D&C 89 at lds.org shows the commas, it's the original D&C 89 that does not show the commas.

M.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, gloosle said:

 but you have to wonder why they eventually chose to omit the commas in our modern scripture. 

First, notice @Maureen's correction.  Then see my previous post about the meaning of the word "only".  Then you'll see why.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Guest

[NeuroTypical]

It's so easy to get thrown off here.  One comma moves, one comma is added.  English grammar nazis get it, the rest of us have to go slow and struggle. 

Current:  And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used[COMMA] only in times of winter[COMMA] or of cold[COMMA] or famine.
Rephrased: God likes it when we don't use meat, except for winter/cold/famine. 

Original:  And it is pleasing unto me[COMMA] that they should not be used only in times of winter or of cold[COMMA] or famine.
Rephrased: God likes it when people don't restrict use of meat to winter/cold/famine.

Church leaders, to the best of my knowledge, have never commented on why the commas and meaning shifted.  Church leaders have also been mixed in what they think about the use of meat, and how much they care.  Frontier America days saw them much more strongly opinionated than theese days, and the opinions seemed to favor abstenence.  I've only seen qualifiers like "I think" and "I am of the opinion that", I've never seen "The Lord said" or "The spirit witnesses". At the end of the day, D&C 49 settles things about vegetarianism for me.

Quote

 

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

 

 

God says beasts and fowl are for food.  More than that, beasts and fowls are ORDAINED for man's use as food.  It's in cannonized scripture, and trumps anyone's opinion, no matter what office they hold. 

We can seek to advance our various opinions about how much, how often, how rarely.  But we can't really say that D&C 49:19 doesn't say what it says.

Edited September 8, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[NightSG]

5 hours ago, unixknight said:

If the intent was for us to not eat meat then the First Presidency would have made a clear statement to that effect.

Commanding to abstain from meats?

Not sure it would be in the best interest of the Church for the FP to fulfill any part of I Timothy 4:1-3 themselves, and 4:4 sure doesn't sound like we should cut back on meat.

[SpiritDragon]

I found the article to have great potential to be really fascinating, but then disappointing that so many words seemed to be used to say nothing.

Whether the comma is there or not the meaning is clear. As Carb mentioned the "only" is more appropriately used as "except" in the way we currently use the terms. The idea of the Word of Wisdom involving judicious use of eating flesh has been around as long as the Word of Wisdom because it's the clear intention. Nothing in scripture contradicts this idea. There are certainly references to meat being for the use of man and not commanding others to ABSTAIN. However, the story of Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego eating pulses instead of the meat and wine of the king offers some insight into the intent as well. How much meat to eat is a decision that should not be taken lightly for spiritual and health reasons, but is very personal. vegetarianism and veganism can be healthy ways of eating, but they can also be junk food diets of sugar and plant oil with processed garbage that do nothing for the promotion of health and are also likely not in the spirit of the word of wisdom although not as clearly spelled out as restricting meat. I guess my point being that the word of wisdom certainly leans toward the vegetarian side of the spectrum, but to enforce vegetarianism is not ordained of God. I personally believe that eating meat about once a week is about right for me... I came from a family that ate meat almost every day, but usually only for dinner. My wife comes from a family where meat was eaten three times a day. Eating meat less frequently isn't always easy, and isn't always successful, but I believe there are blessings for the effort. Interestingly science is continuing to show that a diet high in plants and low in animal products has very powerful effects in reducing cancer risk and reversing heart disease and diabetes... sounds like the inner workings for health that would allow one to "walk and not be weary and run and not faint."

 

[james12]

On 9/8/2016 at 0:28 PM, NeuroTypical said:

It's so easy to get thrown off here.  One comma moves, one comma is added.  English grammar nazis get it, the rest of us have to go slow and struggle. 

Current:  And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used[COMMA] only in times of winter[COMMA] or of cold[COMMA] or famine.
Rephrased: God likes it when we don't use meat, except for winter/cold/famine. 

Original:  And it is pleasing unto me[COMMA] that they should not be used only in times of winter or of cold[COMMA] or famine.
Rephrased: God likes it when people don't restrict use of meat to winter/cold/famine.

Church leaders, to the best of my knowledge, have never commented on why the commas and meaning shifted.  Church leaders have also been mixed in what they think about the use of meat, and how much they care.  Frontier America days saw them much more strongly opinionated than theese days, and the opinions seemed to favor abstenence.  I've only seen qualifiers like "I think" and "I am of the opinion that", I've never seen "The Lord said" or "The spirit witnesses". At the end of the day, D&C 49 settles things about vegetarianism for me.

"For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance." (D&C 49:19) 

God says beasts and fowl are for food.  More than that, beasts and fowls are ORDAINED for man's use as food.  It's in cannonized scripture, and trumps anyone's opinion, no matter what office they hold. 

We can seek to advance our various opinions about how much, how often, how rarely.  But we can't really say that D&C 49:19 doesn't say what it says.

Sure, D&C 49 does say that animals are ordained for the use of man. This scripture was given in regards to questions Laman Copley had, who previously held beliefs of the Shakers. Some or that sect did not eat any meat and the Lord clarified that meat was given for the use of man. But it is very important to define what the Lord is concerned about. Verse 21 of the same section clarifies, "And wo be unto man that shedeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need." If there is any doubt about the matter we have the Joseph Smith translation of Genesis 9. Here the Lord says, "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you: even as the green herb have I given you all things, But, the blood of all flesh which I have given you for meat, shall be shed upon the ground, which taketh life therof, and the blood ye shall not eat. And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands." (Gen 9:3, 10-11 JST). The Lord is concerned about us taking the life of animals wantonly. 

The question is, do we take the life of animals unjustifiably? Over and again the Lord clarifies what is unjustifiable for he says, "only for meat, to save your lives" or "only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine". Are we in first world countries suffering through famine? Do we lack food to eat? Moreover, is the way we treat the animals we eat justifiable before the Lord? I for one have felt that I am not keeping this commandment as I should. 

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, james12 said:

The question is, do we take the life of animals unjustifiably? Over and again the Lord clarifies what is unjustifiable for he says, "only for meat, to save your lives" or "only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine". Are we in first world countries suffering through famine? Do we lack food to eat? Moreover, is the way we treat the animals we eat justifiable before the Lord? I for one have felt that I am not keeping this commandment as I should. 

Good post, james12.  Be warned folks, if you decide to start learning where the world's meat comes from, you will learn about the worldwide plight of the chicken.  You will not come out of this process happier than you started.   

I am no fan of idiot activist groups like PETA, but having availed myself of the same information they've found, yes indeed, intellectual and ethical honesty demands a strong response. 

[Just_A_Guy]

If I remember my reading of Stephen Ambrose's Undaunted Courage accurately, the men of the Lewis and Clark expedition were capable of consuming monumental amounts of meat--I think sometimes as much as ten pounds per man per day.  If frontier Americans were still eating like that thirty years later, it may well be that we have nothing to worry about.

[zil]

13 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If I remember my reading of Stephen Ambrose's Undaunted Courage accurately, the men of the Lewis and Clark expedition were capable of consuming monumental amounts of meat--I think sometimes as much as ten pounds per man per day.  If frontier Americans were still eating like that thirty years later, it may well be that we have nothing to worry about.

I forget the details, but in one episode of The Joseph Smith Papers, they did talk about just how much meat folks at in Joseph's day, and it was a LOT.  I doubt even steak-lovers eat that much meat in a single day (or that was my thought when I heard it - I can't remember the amount now).

[Jojo Bags]

On 9/7/2016 at 0:00 PM, ldsnet said:

To eat meat, or not to eat meat: that isn't the question Hamlet asked himself as he contemplated suicide, nor is it the question most members of the Church ask themselves as they dig into the latest relief society casserole — but maybe it should be. 1. We Have Access to Grains All Year Round 12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; 13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine. D&C 89 In the Word of Wisdom we are admonished to use flesh "sparingly" and not to use it unless we're in "times of winter or of cold, or famine." Today — in most developed countries — winter, cold, and famine are nearly inconsequential when it comes to the foods we choose to eat. Globalization has brought access to all foods, year round. Fruits, vegetables, and grains exist in...

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And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;
(Doctrine and Covenants 49:18)

Nuf said.

[curious_mormon]

On 9/7/2016 at 2:00 PM, ldsnet said:

To eat meat, or not to eat meat: that isn't the question Hamlet asked himself as he contemplated suicide, nor is it the question most members of the Church ask themselves as they dig into the latest relief society casserole — but maybe it should be. 1. We Have Access to Grains All Year Round 12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; 13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine. D&C 89 In the Word of Wisdom we are admonished to use flesh "sparingly" and not to use it unless we're in "times of winter or of cold, or famine." Today — in most developed countries — winter, cold, and famine are nearly inconsequential when it comes to the foods we choose to eat. Globalization has brought access to all foods, year round. Fruits, vegetables, and grains exist in...

View the full article

My family eats meat all the time. Everyday. I recently have been eating less meat...and I feel better. As in, I don't that much "fatique". I tried doing that for at least 2 weeks. But then I "love" meat. I probably should have a balanced diet anyway. Eat meat and Veggies equally ...

[anatess2]

So... we had somebody in our ward invite a bunch of people from the ward to his house for after-stake-conference dinner get-together.  There were about 30 people there and he fired up the grill and brought out these super thick steaks!  I looked at the package and they were $10.99/lb and he had well over 10 lbs on that grill... It was sooo good - right out of the grill onto the plate and into my stomach - no steak sauce needed.  I must've eaten a pound of it just by myself...

 

[Jojo Bags]

I love animals very much...especially barbequed over mesquite coals, then slobbered with tangy honey BBQ sauce.

[NightSG]

14 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

I love animals very much...especially barbequed over mesquite coals, then slobbered with tangy honey BBQ sauce.

One of the best things about this area is that mesquite is so plentiful, as long as you've got a chainsaw and an axe, people will pay you to take some.  If you're willing to take it for free, you have to keep that a secret or people won't let you rest. 

Back when I had my lathe set up, I'd make a lot of mesquite pens, bowls, etc.  All the scrap went in the grill, and in cold weather, sawdust went in a burner i used to heat the shop.  It would get to where hot mesquite was all I could smell or taste for days...and I was fine with that.

[Guest]

People tend to associate Korean cuisine with kim chee more than anything else.  But what makes Korean Cuisine is their BBQ.  The special marinade that is Korean BBQ.  Mmmm.

[anatess2]

16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

People tend to associate Korean cuisine with kim chee more than anything else.  But what makes Korean Cuisine is their BBQ.  The special marinade that is Korean BBQ.  Mmmm.

The couple that had us over with the $10.99/lb steaks?  They're Korean... and they had this big giant jar of kimchee in their fridge and had a small plate of it on the table... they also had this big giant jar of shredded chicken BBQ in the fridge and had a big plate of it on the table that they had to refill over and over.