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In the beginning, when all else was perfect, Satan was also an angel...and I know he was cast down from heaven because he opposed God. But my question is...did Satan get tempted by another angel or something? how did he know how to do evil and oppose God if he was perfect. Does that mean that in heaven at that time, the angels had free will?

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30 minutes ago, curious_mormon said:

In the beginning, when all else was perfect, Satan was also an angel...and I know he was cast down from heaven because he opposed God. But my question is...did Satan get tempted by another angel or something?

Official answer: We have no idea.

Speculation: By another angel - probably not, but possible, and clearly he had is followers who no doubt encouraged him.  We had knowledge and intelligence.  We had agency (see below).  I think Satan thought it out for himself and let his arrogance take over from there.  Were there examples (e.g. already-existing worlds and/or people and/or records) he could have known about and used to influence his choices?  Perhaps (certainly they existed; what exposure we had to them is unknown).  In the end, good and evil (as possibilities) must exist wherever there is sufficient knowledge to understand opposition.  Once you understand, you have a choice.  Satan clearly understood enough to choose, and his choice led to consequences.  Were he ignorant (like a child), God would surely not have punished him for what he did in ignorance (i.e. that he was punished indicates he understood what he as doing and had agency (see below)).

28 minutes ago, curious_mormon said:

I how did he know how to do evil and oppose God if he was perfect.

(Not sure who "he" is in "if he was perfect" - if you mean Satan, clearly he wasn't perfect, nor do we have reason to believe any of us were perfect - I think perfection requires an exalted immortal body - though certainly Christ and the Holy Ghost were perfect enough to be part of the Godhead (just not complete yet?).)

28 minutes ago, curious_mormon said:

Does that mean that in heaven at that time, the angels had free will?

See:

Quote

Moses 4:3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

"had" - past tense - we already had agency.  (How else could we have chosen which plan to support and suffered / enjoyed the consequences of our choice?)

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Who tempted Satan... nobody.  He had perfect knowledge.  He chose to defy the Father in his own free will.  He is, then, the father of all lies and he is actively trying to win us to his own kingdom of darkness.

Edited by anatess2

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On 9/7/2016 at 2:08 PM, curious_mormon said:

In the beginning, when all else was perfect, Satan was also an angel...and I know he was cast down from heaven because he opposed God. But my question is...did Satan get tempted by another angel or something? how did he know how to do evil and oppose God if he was perfect. Does that mean that in heaven at that time, the angels had free will?

no idea if something else tempted him... however i find that once your pride gets to a point one doesn't really need an outside source for temptation.

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It is interesting to see that temptation is not a prerequisite to doing something "bad". Children, unable to be tempted by Satan or his cohorts until the age of accountability, are capable of doing "bad" things. I believe we learn that Satan was able to repeat things he had learned about or seen done on other worlds as well, thus in the very early stages of his rebellion, he possibly could have been mimicking the bad behavior of others.

With that said, I wasn't there, so what do I know?

Edited by NeedleinA

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On September 7, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Larry Cotrell said:

I googled "who tempted Satan," and one of the results was an old discussion on this. Maybe there's some wisdom in here from eight years ago, maybe not.

 

@Larry Cotrell the mainstream Christian view of Satan is also that he is a fallen angel, yes?

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30 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Well then, where were you when the foundations of the earth were laid? Declare it, if you have understanding.

Pretty sure I was on Jimmy Johns run and simply slipped through the cracks. 

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

@Larry Cotrell the mainstream Christian view of Satan is also that he is a fallen angel, yes?

Yes, most Christians I have heard believe that Lucifer was an angel that rebelled (Ezekiel 28:12-18), and a third of the angels rebelled with Him (Revelation 12:4). The Bible never uses the word angel to describe him however, it refers to him as a cherub which essentially means the same thing.

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On September 7, 2016 at 2:08 PM, curious_mormon said:

Does that mean that in heaven at that time, the angels had free will?

Yes.  Our Heavenly Father never restricts someone's free will.    

Granted: there are some other Christian churches which will disagree with the LDS Church on this and say that angels never had/have any sort of free will.   

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On 9/7/2016 at 2:08 PM, curious_mormon said:

In the beginning, when all else was perfect, Satan was also an angel...and I know he was cast down from heaven because he opposed God. But my question is...did Satan get tempted by another angel or something? how did he know how to do evil and oppose God if he was perfect. Does that mean that in heaven at that time, the angels had free will?

 

On 9/9/2016 at 10:55 AM, anatess2 said:

Who tempted Satan... nobody.  He had perfect knowledge.  He chose to defy the Father in his own free will.  He is, then, the father of all lies and he is actively trying to win us to his own kingdom of darkness.

I do not understand (or do not agree) that Satan had or could have had perfect knowledge.  How could someone with perfect knowledge want to or try to defy God. Perfect knowledge means he knows God's plan as well as the consequences of opposing it. A person with perfect knowledge could not do that unless he was insane.

If someone - Satan - with perfect knowledge - can oppose God and His plan, then even God himself can oppose the plan.

So Satan must not have had perfect knowledge. He might not have known much at all. He was, after all, in the role of a servant. Servants obey; they are not privy to the consultations of their masters that lead to the instructions they are given.  

 

Edited by Lorenzo

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1 hour ago, Lorenzo said:

 

I do not understand (or do not agree) that Satan had or could have had perfect knowledge.  How could someone with perfect knowledge want to or try to defy God. Perfect knowledge means he knows God's plan as well as the consequences of opposing it. A person with perfect knowledge could not do that unless he was insane.

If someone - Satan - with perfect knowledge - can oppose God and His plan, then even God himself can oppose the plan.

So Satan must not have had perfect knowledge. He might not have known much at all. He was, after all, in the role of a servant. Servants obey; they are not privy to the consultations of their masters that lead to the instructions they are given.  

 

Well, if you like, you can call him insane.

Yes, God Himself can oppose the plan.  That will make Him cease to be God.  It is HIS WILL made freely with perfect knowledge that makes Him God.  It is that same WILL made freely with perfect knowledge that makes Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost Gods.  It is Satan's Will to oppose the Father made freely with perfect knowledge that got him cast out of God's Kingdom.

It is this FREE WILL to choose completely and perfectly the Will of the Father after gaining Perfect Knowledge that will qualify us to be Gods ourselves.

Perfect Knowledge alone does not make one a God.  Perfect UNITY with the Will of the Father after gaining Perfect Knowledge makes one a God.  Rejection of the Will of the Father after gaining Perfect Knowledge earns one a seat with Satan in Outer Darkness.  Final Judgment is made after we have attained Knowledge and not before.  Rejecting Christ without perfect knowledge doesn't get us cast out.  Rather, it keeps us in the spirit world to keep progressing in knowledge until all is revealed to us.  If, after gaining knowledge, we accept Christ, then we are saved through repentance and Christ's atoning sacrifice.  If, after gaining knowledge, we reject Christ, then we are cast out to outer darkness.

Edited by anatess2

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On "angels" or pre-mortal spirits having free will, we should look at D&C 93.

Quote

 

 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

 31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

 

 

When I read this, the Lord correlates intelligence, agency and existence.  We don't know what "intelligences" are and how they differ from spirits, but I would propose that, in our premortal progression, an intelligence occurs when we become self-aware.  When we become self-aware, we can start to exercise agency.  Otherwise there is no existence.  

Satan or any of us can choose not to follow the will of God at any point in our existence.  We don't need to be tempted by another.  I can't recall where I read it long ago, but Joseph Smith said that the devil doesn't get credit for all the evil in the world.  Much of the evil comes from us and our choices.  If solely he was responsible, we'd could not be held accountable.  

As it relates to the OP's question, Lucifer didn't have to be tempted by any external being or force.  The existence of choices makes it possible to act contrary to the Lord's will.  

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On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 11:34 AM, Larry Cotrell said:

Yes, most Christians I have heard believe that Lucifer was an angel that rebelled (Ezekiel 28:12-18), and a third of the angels rebelled with Him (Revelation 12:4). The Bible never uses the word angel to describe him however, it refers to him as a cherub which essentially means the same thing.

Just wondering if you really realize what you are saying and making reference to.  Ezekiel does not say Lucifer was a fallen angel but rather it refers to him as "the anointed cherub that covereth".  This would indicate that Satan was one of the cherubim made reference to at the end of Genesis chapter 3.  Also that the only cherubim that covereth would reference the Mercy Seat – Ark of the Covenant – in the tabernacle and temple of G-d spoken of in the Old Testament Scripture.  In addition the term “anointed” actually means “Messiah”

The word cherub is a Greek word and in ancient Greek Mythology - which is most likely a better source than early Christian Tradition – that a cherub is a classification of type of g-d and not an angel.   The notion that a cherub is an angel is entirely an unfounded fabrication of early Christianity following the loss of Apostles to the Christian Church – what we LDS refer to as – The Apostasy.

 

The Traveler

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16 hours ago, Traveler said:

The word cherub is a Greek word and in ancient Greek Mythology - which is most likely a better source than early Christian Tradition – that a cherub is a classification of type of g-d and not an angel.   The notion that a cherub is an angel is entirely an unfounded fabrication of early Christianity following the loss of Apostles to the Christian Church – what we LDS refer to as – The Apostasy.

So, you are saying that Satan was a g-d? 

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1 hour ago, Larry Cotrell said:

So, you are saying that Satan was a g-d? 

No he wasn't because.... tat-tada... To be God, you have to be in Perfect Unity with the Godhead.  He wasn't.

See, this is where the Trinitarian understanding clashes with the LDS.  In Trinitarian thought God is a substance (ousia) difference.  That is - a God is a different species/material so that only God can ever be God because God is the only thing in existence with the material.  Man, no matter how good he becomes can never be God because the Man material is different from the God material.  The LDS do not believe that.  The LDS believe that when Christ said that we can be Gods he did not mean - like God.  He means literally God.  Capital G.  In the same manner that Jesus is God and the Holy Ghost is God.

In LDS belief, the "mystery" that makes the 3 persons ONE God is not the God material but THAT WILL that is God.  Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost are 3 persons who have the material of Exalted Man.  We as earthly beings have temporary bodies.  This is not our eternal exalted body.  This mortal body shrouds an eternal spirits.  Our mortal body dies, our eternal spirits continue until our resurrection when we gain our eternal bodies.  These eternal bodies are the same material that the 3 Persons in the Godhead have.  Therefore, what makes God ONE is not their bodies.  What makes God ONE is the WILL that is Godly.  Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost have this exact same WILL made freely.  Perfect Unity of Will means that the 3 Persons in the Godhead have the same Desires, the same Choices, the same Law, the same Plan, etc. etc.

Lucifer/Satan is the exact same eternal material.  But, he did not attain Godhood as he is not in Perfect Unity of Will with that Will that is God.  He is not a God in the same manner that Baal - who also do not have perfect unity with that Will of God - is also not God.

If the Father, in His free will, chooses to depart from the Will that is God, then He will cease to be God.  That, of course, cannot happen as the Father is Perfect.

We, as mortal beings with free will, are learning to align our Will with that Will that is God.  That is our purpose here.  So that, if we can achieve that perfect unity with the Will that is God, we may join as Persons in that Godhead.

Make sense?

 

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6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

No he wasn't because.... tat-tada... To be God, you have to be in Perfect Unity with the Godhead.  He wasn't.

See, this is where the Trinitarian understanding clashes with the LDS.  In Trinitarian thought God is a substance (ousia) difference.  That is - a God is a different species/material so that only God can ever be God because God is the only thing in existence with the material.  Man, no matter how good he becomes can never be God because the Man material is different from the God material.  The LDS do not believe that.  The LDS believe that when Christ said that we can be Gods he did not mean - like God.  He means literally God.  Capital G.  In the same manner that Jesus is God and the Holy Ghost is God.

In LDS belief, the "mystery" that makes the 3 persons ONE God is not the God material but THAT WILL that is God.  Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost are 3 persons who have the material of Exalted Man.  We as earthly beings have temporary bodies.  This is not our eternal exalted body.  This mortal body shrouds an eternal spirits.  Our mortal body dies, our eternal spirits continue until our resurrection when we gain our eternal bodies.  These eternal bodies are the same material that the 3 Persons in the Godhead have.  Therefore, what makes God ONE is not their bodies.  What makes God ONE is the WILL that is Godly.  Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost have this exact same WILL made freely.  Perfect Unity of Will means that the 3 Persons in the Godhead have the same Desires, the same Choices, the same Law, the same Plan, etc. etc.

Lucifer/Satan is the exact same eternal material.  But, he did not attain Godhood as he is not in Perfect Unity of Will with that Will that is God.  He is not a God in the same manner that Baal - who also do not have perfect unity with that Will of God - is also not God.

If the Father, in His free will, chooses to depart from the Will that is God, then He will cease to be God.  That, of course, cannot happen as the Father is Perfect.

We, as mortal beings with free will, are learning to align our Will with that Will that is God.  That is our purpose here.  So that, if we can achieve that perfect unity with the Will that is God, we may join as Persons in that Godhead.

Make sense?

 

I understand eternal progression (even if I don't agree with it) but @Traveler said that a cherub was a type of g-d. Because the Bible says that Satan was a cherub, I assume that he is saying that the word cherub refers to Satan as a g-d (in his interpretation of the word cherub). I understand that he is not saying that Satan has anything to do with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

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25 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I understand eternal progression (even if I don't agree with it) but @Traveler said that a cherub was a type of g-d. Because the Bible says that Satan was a cherub, I assume that he is saying that the word cherub refers to Satan as a g-d (in his interpretation of the word cherub). I understand that he is not saying that Satan has anything to do with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

That is correct, Satan would has nothing to do with the Godhead.  Notice the lower case "g".  The think is that in LDS theology, it is difficult to differentiate a god from an angel.  And since Satan is considered a fallen angel, it is just a short skip to consider him a god.  

But it is important to remember that his current status (being fallen) leaves him with little actual power except to tempt us and deceive us.  So, to consider him a god in any way shape or form in his current state would be erroneous.

This definition angel/god (which will not be common among Mormons) is only applicable for pre-mortal spirits.  It would be more accurate to say that an "exalted being" is only one who has been, well, exalted.  Satan does not qualify.

Edited by Guest

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6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That is correct, Satan would has nothing to do with the Godhead.  Notice the lower case "g".  The think is that in LDS theology, it is difficult to differentiate a god from an angel.  And since Satan is considered a fallen angel, it is just a short skip to consider him a god.  

But it is important to remember that his current status (being fallen) leaves him with little actual power except to tempt us and deceive us.  So, to consider him a god in any way shape or form in his current state would be erroneous.

Besides, I have it on firsthand authority that @Carborendum is satan. 

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6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That is correct, Satan would has nothing to do with the Godhead.  Notice the lower case "g".  The think is that in LDS theology, it is difficult to differentiate a god from an angel.  And since Satan is considered a fallen angel, it is just a short skip to consider him a god.  

But it is important to remember that his current status (being fallen) leaves him with little actual power except to tempt us and deceive us.  So, to consider him a god in any way shape or form in his current state would be erroneous.

So you're saying that he was a g-d (lower case g) but no longer is?

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4 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

So you're saying that he was a g-d (lower case g) but no longer is?

read my edited third paragraph.

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42 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I understand eternal progression (even if I don't agree with it) but @Traveler said that a cherub was a type of g-d. Because the Bible says that Satan was a cherub, I assume that he is saying that the word cherub refers to Satan as a g-d (in his interpretation of the word cherub). I understand that he is not saying that Satan has anything to do with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Okay, Traveler is using terminology that can get confusing.  He uses god with the lower case g which is different to God with the capital G.

Basically, what he is trying to say is that a cherub is the same material that our spirits are.  In the vast majority of Christianity, it is believed that Cherubs/Angels are also different material than Man is and is a different material than God.  In LDS belief, Cherubs, Angels, Persons, God are all the same material.  Traveler calls all of us gods (small g) until we unite in perfect unity with God and become God ourselves (capital G) or we reject God and join Satan in Outer Darkness (complete separation from God).  So, Satan was a god (potential for Godhood) until he rejected God and has, therefore, no potential to be God anymore.

Edited by anatess2

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