Larry Cotrell

Joseph Smith 1826

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4 minutes ago, Amym73 said:

:) We might be relatives then! Really? That is really really awesome!! Maybe I should be looking for Journals of the people in my tree!

We probably are related in some way.  

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1 hour ago, zil said:

If nothing else, there's always Noah.... ;)

Yes, I believe I'm related to Joseph Smith as a 32th cousin 28 times removed through my adopted family.  And I'm his 61st cousin 57 times removed biologically.

Edited by Guest

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21 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I have heard that Joseph Smith was arrested in 1826 for glass-looking, an occult practice. Here is the document:

Image result for Joseph Smith 1826 trial

I will keep my opinions out of this but I was wondering what LDS people thought.

Joseph Smith used seer stones. I'd imagine that that wasn't any different to the law than glass looking.... no idea what the penalty for breaking or the reason for having such a law on the books was.

however from the court action transcripts i've been able to see of a few, I haven't been able to find one that puts him on the wrong side of God, or as a dishonest person.

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7 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Unless you wish to consider any use of Strength, Intelligence or anything else someone might currently think is a gift of God as "occult practices" you are being a bit hypocritical of your stance

What if someone came to you and said that their spiritual gift was using tarot cards to predict the future?

Here's my opinion:

Jeremiah 18:10-12

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

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22 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

What if someone came to you and said that their spiritual gift was using tarot cards to predict the future?

Here's my opinion:

Jeremiah 18:10-12

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Do you know what the Seer Stones are called in the Bible?   They are otherwise known as Urim and Thummim  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim

It is kind of short sighted to label a scripturally defined, God given, gift as Occult... and compare it to something that the scriptures condemn

 

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27 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

What if someone came to you and said that their spiritual gift was using tarot cards to predict the future?

 

Excellent question. 

I think my response would be "In the modern day church we know that God has given the power to see the future to very few people. They need proper priesthood authority in order to do so, and even then they almost never make predictions for future events." 

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6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Do you know what the Seer Stones are called in the Bible?   They are otherwise known as Urim and Thummim  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim

It is kind of short sighted to label a scripturally defined, God given, gift as Occult... and compare it to something that the scriptures condemn

 

My question to you, @estradling75, is

31 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

What if someone came to you and said that their spiritual gift was using tarot cards to predict the future?

 

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18 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Do you know what the Seer Stones are called in the Bible?   They are otherwise known as Urim and Thummim

Urim and Thummim were a means of casting lots. 1 Samuel 14:41 is a great example of this (you can see the different translations of the verse here http://biblehub.com/1_samuel/14-41.htm). Casting lots is/was a Biblical practice

Proverbs 16:33 

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
 

 

Edited by Larry Cotrell

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Predicting the future is also known as prophecy...  It is a gift God can clearly give per the scripture... it is also a gift that Satan can clearly fake again per the scripture... Clearly one must learn to discern between the two... That requires a knowledge of the scripture and the guidance of the spirit.

No where in the scripture does it tell us that God might use a tarot deck... So that is a indicator against it...  However the scripture do show Seer Stones (aka Urim and Thummim) being used with Gods blessing... So that would be an indicator for there use.

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1 hour ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Urim and Thummim were a means of casting lots. 1 Samuel 14:41 is a great example of this (you can see the different translations of the verse here http://biblehub.com/1_samuel/14-41.htm). Casting lots is/was a Biblical practice

Proverbs 16:33 

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

This is how many, maybe even most, Christian commentators choose to interpret it; but there doesn't seem to be a scholarly consensus.  I understand that Jewish rabbinical sources tend to lean towards the idea that using the U&T involved reading the way the various stones of the high priest's breastplate shone with light.  The idea of light shining out of stones in order to reveal God's will, is definitely in keeping with the traditional Mormon notion of how the U&T functioned. 

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

No where in the scripture does it tell us that God might use a tarot deck... So that is a indicator against it...  However the scripture do show Seer Stones (aka Urim and Thummim) being used with Gods blessing... So that would be an indicator for there use.

Then again . . . Oliver Cowdery was apparently very skilled in the use of a divining rod, and this is what D&C 8:6 is alluding to when it mentions the "Gift of Aaron" (earlier manuscripts of this revelation refer to his "gift of working with the sprout" or "gift of working with the rod" - source).  While the Bible does have reference to God's will being made manifest with rods, as far as I know it never talks about using them in the way Cowdery and other early-19th-century "water witches" did.

IMHO, as long as we aren't disobeying the light and knowledge that we already have, I think that sincerely seeking more of it from God through sub-optimal means is less problematic than trying to dictate to God what He can and can't say or how He must say it.  To me the problem with tarot cards isn't necessarily that God would never reveal Himself through them (Maybe they really are irredeemably evil.  Then again, maybe the issue is that the current cultural baggage pertaining to tarot cards is too much of a distraction for most folks to focus on the spirit of revelation; so God chooses to reveal Himself through other means.  Maybe in a hundred years, our grandkids will look at our aversion to tarot cards as a quaint social taboo, the way many of us now view our Mormon grandparents' avoidance of face cards).  The larger issue, I think, is the historical condemnation of them by LDS church leaders whom I consider to be prophets; the lack of any indication that the Church's stance on the issue has softened in recent years; and the complete absence (so far as I know) of any serious claim by its practitioners that the information gleaned from tarot-card use originates with Jehovah.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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8 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

My question to you, @estradling75, is

 

 

8 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Predicting the future is also known as prophecy...  It is a gift God can clearly give per the scripture... it is also a gift that Satan can clearly fake again per the scripture... Clearly one must learn to discern between the two... That requires a knowledge of the scripture and the guidance of the spirit.

No where in the scripture does it tell us that God might use a tarot deck... So that is a indicator against it...  However the scripture do show Seer Stones (aka Urim and Thummim) being used with Gods blessing... So that would be an indicator for there use.

I believe that moses and the magicians of pharoah, when they turn their staves into snakes, shows a good example. Whether tarot cards, snakes, a sheep rod that blooms, dice that shine, or an ark- God will command his prophet to use it (or authorize it), and it will be the prevailing one while the others will fail. ( there have been other seer stones found- and that situation pretty much repeated itself)

 

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13 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

Whether tarot cards, snakes, a sheep rod that blooms, dice that shine, or an ark- God will command his prophet to use it (or authorize it), and it will be the prevailing one while the others will fail. ( there have been other seer stones found- and that situation pretty much repeated itself)

I don't think God would use things of evil and pagan origins to reveal His truth. (I am reffering to tarot cards)

Edited by Larry Cotrell

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6 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I don't think God would use things of evil and pagan origins to reveal His truth. (I am reffering to tarot cards)

Are you sure about that origin?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot

Their origin is that of simple playing cards.  They were used for tricks.  Tricks evolved into mysticism... But they're still used as playing cards today.

I've found that Satan almost never comes up with something on his own.  He takes something that man or God has already created and twists them for his own purposes.  Take the pentagram for instance.  It used to be a revered Christian symbol.  But somewhere in the past century or so it got twisted into the evil symbol it is today -- in case you're wondering why our older temples carry such symbolism.

The swastika is the same thing.  It used to be as innocent as the four-leafed clover of today.  But it obviously carries sinister meaning today.

I would be careful about placing limits on what God can/will or can't/won't do.

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14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

IMHO, as long as we aren't disobeying the light and knowledge that we already have, I think that sincerely seeking more of it from God through sub-optimal means is less problematic than trying to dictate to God what He can and can't say or how He must say it.  To me the problem with tarot cards isn't necessarily that God would never reveal Himself through them (Maybe they really are irredeemably evil.  Then again, maybe the issue is that the current cultural baggage pertaining to tarot cards is too much of a distraction for most folks to focus on the spirit of revelation; so God chooses to reveal Himself through other means.  Maybe in a hundred years, our grandkids will look at our aversion to tarot cards as a quaint social taboo, the way many of us now view our Mormon grandparents' avoidance of face cards).  The larger issue, I think, is the historical condemnation of them by LDS church leaders whom I consider to be prophets; the lack of any indication that the Church's stance on the issue has softened in recent years; and the complete absence (so far as I know) of any serious claim by its practitioners that the information gleaned from tarot-card use originates with Jehovah.

I said the lack of cards being used that way in the scriptures would be a negative indicator... I didn't say it was the only indicator or that it could not be overcome by more positive indicators...

 

After all I am not just going to accept a prophesy from someone who says they have a seer stone... just because they (seer stones) are found in the scriptures and God has used that method before...  If I did that I would be ignoring the scriptures and the lessons the Lord taught in the D&C (aka the Hyrum Page incident)

Edited by estradling75

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19 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I don't think God would use things of evil and pagan origins to reveal His truth. (I am reffering to tarot cards)

Nor I in general- god's intervening by providing physical objects or blessing physical objects to behave in certain ways is fairly rare (but it should be noted it has happened, more than once), however God has not stated that he won't ever use cards or something that looks like cards- so technically that angle is still open, should God for whatever reason decide to do so. (a couple reasons why as an LDS, I would be more likely to dismiss a card reader would be that God has already given a system to use, and how authority travels.. which only would make it a very narrow range of situations where i would something from such a reader seriously).


pagan and evil things try to mimic or to access the types of things what god has done for people in the past (and if you think about it, every sin tends to be some sort of perversion of something God gave man, from something good to something wicked). If a person who had no idea who moses claimed to be were to see the interaction between him and pharoah's magicians that person would have said they all used magic- if that person were to pay careful attention they might catch Moses saying the lord commandeth thus then they might get a clue of what made moses different from from pharoah's men.
I find the account of when satan tempts Christ to be interesting. in the second attempt Satan uses something that God gave to tempt Christ into sin.

in these cases what was of God's was only given to his chosen servant(s) to use. (so there is one test- from what does the skill come from? the Lord's servants have generally been quick to say that such things are from God or an angel, and that it is done by God's hand)

the biggest test, is likely determining whether that person is a servant of God. To that end I know that Joseph smith was- Not only have had some pretty strong answers to prayer in regards to him, but God has rewarded my patience in continuing to trust that God chose Joseph smith as his servant.

So to answer the question how would I consider a card reader as an LDS it would have to be given from on high- so it would have to be given to the prophet, then to the apostles, then to the seventies and etc and etc... and on down. As this would seem strange it would also require some answers to personal prayer as well.

If I wasn't LDS, I would have to be able to determine if that person was chosen by God to be a servant (altho for them to get through the door they'd have to exhibit qualities of the Holy Spirit). and that certainly isn't a small task.

Edited by Blackmarch

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On 9/9/2016 at 0:00 PM, pam said:

He is my 4th cousin 7X removed. :)  I have ancestors that have written about him in their journals from back in his day.

I have no idea what a 4th cousin 7X removed is. What exactly does this mean? I'm not good at all on family history stuff and don't have a clear idea of what removed cousins are.

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16 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I have no idea what a 4th cousin 7X removed is. What exactly does this mean? I'm not good at all on family history stuff and don't have a clear idea of what removed cousins are.

Say George and Sue have kids.  And then their kids have kids = these are the grandchildren.  All of the grandchildren are 1st cousins to each other.  One of the grandchildren is named Mike.  

Time passes and the grandchildren have kids (George and Sue's great-grandchildren).  All of the great-grandchildren are 2nd cousins to each other.  One of the great-grandchildren is named Sarah.  

And then the great grandchildren have kids!   George and Sue's great-great-grandchildren.  All of the great-great-grandchildren are 3rd cousins to each other.  One of them is named Larry.

And so on for fourth cousins, etc...

 

But what is Mike to Sarah?  After all Mike is a grandchild and Sarah is a great-grandchild.  They can't be first cousins, because Sarah is too far removed. And they aren't normal second cousins either... so they are known as a "second cousins once removed", because there is one generation removed between them.  

Likewise Mike and Larry are 3rd cousins, twice removed because their are two generations between them.  

 

 

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Jane Doe, isn't the degree of cousins between two living people determined by the relationship of the person nearest to the common ancestor to the other person's ancestor in the same generation--making Mike and Larry first cousins twice removed?

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8 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Jane Doe, isn't the degree of cousins between two living people determined by the relationship of the person nearest to the common ancestor to the other person's ancestor in the same generation--making Mike and Larry first cousins twice removed?

It could be.... I've admittedly been out of FH work for a while and feel very rusty here.

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