What advice would you give someone considering divorce over income?


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Chatting with a young associate today who has been married about three years, no children yet. She says she was raised to find a husband who makes a very good income, but her husband has not yet been able to secure a job paying over 30,000$ She is afraid if she has kids she won't be able to stay home. Her parents are encouraging her to divorce her husband if he doesn't find a way to make more money in the next year, and she really considering this. It is indeed a temple marriage. Her reasoning is that while she loves her husband, she doesn't feel he is living up to his duty by not being able to make enough.

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Sounds like a GREAT time to leave mother and father and cleave to her husband. 

 

I assume when she made covenants with this man, she knew his career status. And who of us had great, secure income at 3 years of marriage? 

On the other hand, I'm close to someone whose wife is constantly beating him down because they've never gotten rich, he hasn't gotten her the big beautiful house she "deserves", he hasn't achieved high enough standing in the church... you name it. No, they're not rich, but they have everything they need. This is a good, good man that she is lucky to have, but her stupid pride is blinding her to happiness they could have had for the last 20+ years if she wasn't wishing for more more more. Honestly, I wish HE would have left HER years ago, because he deserves so much more than she's ever given him. 

Edited by Eowyn
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16 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Sounds like a GREAT time to leave mother and father and cleave to her husband. 

 

I assume when she made covenants with this man, she knew his career status. And who of us had great, secure income at 3 years of marriage? 

On the other hand, I'm close to someone whose wife is constantly beating him down because they've never gotten rich, he hasn't gotten her the big beautiful house she "deserves", he hasn't achieved high enough standing in the church... you name it. No, they're not rich, but they have everything they need. This is a good, good man that she is lucky to have, but her stupid pride is blinding her to happiness they could have had for the last 20+ years if she wasn't wishing for more more more. Honestly, I wish HE would have left HER years ago, because he deserves so much more than she's ever given him. 

My understanding is they married in college with her expecting a lot more from his field... and his field has recently changed its job prospects. I told her the same thing happened to my husband, who has incidently found a career he enjoys in another field entirely. Her sisters are all married to men making at least 100 grand.

On your friend's situation... one of the most irritating people on my Facebook feed is a gal who was always aimed at having the big house and the nice things. Well, she married a man who built her the big beauitful house. I know this because it's all she ever posts about on social media is her big beautiful house. That, or how poor they are (probably because of the big, ugly house payments)

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I will repeat a story I've told before here: One day, while riding in the car with my dad, he told me that he had a testimony that had he and my mom decided to wait to have children until after he had better career prospects, the Lord never would have blessed him with the career opportunities he had.  We were certainly not rich, but we didn't go hungry or naked either.

There are numerous scriptures about the generosity of God (and they are not all obviously about generosity, you have to look for them).  They indicate that God is trying to teach us to be generous.  It is my experience that when we are generous with others (which cannot be accomplished grudgingly), God is generous with us (what that looks like will vary from person to person).

My recommendation is to stop considering things the Lord has counseled against, and start doing (more) things the Lord has commanded.  FWIW.

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Guest MormonGator

This is chilling. In modern society it's often thought that men disregard their marriage vows (we've all heard the story of men running off to be with the secretary) but lately on the boards we've seen some stories about women willing to throw it all away for basically no reason. Wow.

Tell her to divorce him so he can find a better wife who wouldn't even entertain this wretched idea. 

Edited by MormonGator
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Darn it, Gator. You edited your post. I was about to have a field day with that error.

I think Satan twists things. God teaches men to aim to be main providers, Satan whispers stuff about men not providing enough.

Edited by Backroads
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16 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Darn it, Gator. You edited your post. I was about to have a field day with that error.

I think Satan twists things. God teaches men to aim to be main providers, Satan whispers stuff about men not providing enough.

Don't tell @zil but the new secretary at the compound will soon be wife #4. 

(and you are on my Facebook so don't tell LadyGator either!) 

Edited by MormonGator
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1 hour ago, Backroads said:

My understanding is they married in college with her expecting a lot more from his field... and his field has recently changed its job prospects. I told her the same thing happened to my husband, who has incidently found a career he enjoys in another field entirely. Her sisters are all married to men making at least 100 grand.

On your friend's situation... one of the most irritating people on my Facebook feed is a gal who was always aimed at having the big house and the nice things. Well, she married a man who built her the big beauitful house. I know this because it's all she ever posts about on social media is her big beautiful house. That, or how poor they are (probably because of the big, ugly house payments)

I've noticed that how much money you make does not mean you have more money.  Rather it is a person's spending habits which determine how much (or little) money they have.

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4 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I've noticed that how much money you make does not mean you have more money.  Rather it is a person's spending habits which determine how much (or little) money they have.

Isn't that the truth? I've also noticed you can't judge the financial stability of a family by what type of car they drive/home they have. Someone who looks well off might be teetering on bankruptcy and someone who looks "poor" might be a closet millionaire.  

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28 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Isn't that the truth? I've also noticed you can't judge the financial stability of a family by what type of car they drive/home they have. Someone who looks well off might be teetering on bankruptcy and someone who looks "poor" might be a closet millionaire.  

 I remember some friends of the family who, as a kid, I figured weren't rich. The house wasn't anything noteworthy and they usually dressed second-hand. Turns out they had plenty of money, they just spent it on vacations. The house had been paid off even then.

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

This is chilling. In modern society it's often thought that men disregard their marriage vows (we've all heard the story of men running off to be with the secretary) but lately on the boards we've seen some stories about women willing to throw it all away for basically no reason. Wow.

Tell her to divorce him so he can find a better wife who wouldn't even entertain this wretched idea. 

As much as men get castigated in today's society it ends up being the woman more often than not that initiates the divorce . . .something like over 70% of divorces are initiated by women.  Society has "liberated" women so much that a commitment and a vow means squat.

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Up front, divorcing over the amount of money the husband makes is not a valid reason for divorce.

However, this husband needs to get his butt in gear and carry out his husband duties. 30k/ year is squat. Now certainly there are some people who only have the capability to make 30k/year, but if you have any bit of initiative, drive, smarts, degree, etc. you can and should do better than 30k/year. Shoot, my first job out of high school as a waiter had I worked for a year would have been over 25k/year and that was over 15 years ago! Much like I'm not willing to give the woman a pass for not carrying out her duties as the heart of the home, I'm not going to give the husband a pass for not carrying out his duties as provider.

This is one of those things that will cause a rift in a marriage and can be difficult to solve, just like if the woman is not nurturing the children properly that will be a major bone of contention, a husband unwilling to provide adequately for his family is derelict in his duties. That is what you do as a provider . . .sometimes you have to take the crap job that pays more and put up with more bull and absolute crap... b/c you have a duty to provide.

Divorce worthy, no- scorn worthy-yes.

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11 hours ago, yjacket said:

something like over 70% of divorces are initiated by women

IMO, that number means nothing unless we can also find the numbers (for all divorces, regardless of who filed the papers) for why they filed the papers.  E.g. What percentage of that 70% were filed because the husband just walked out, as opposed to being because the woman decided to end things?  (IMO, in this case, that the woman filed the papers is irrelevant - the man is the one who ended the marriage, and I for one cannot blame her for not wanting to remain legally bound to someone who's now off the radar and doing who knows what.)

NOTE: I have no idea what the true numbers are regarding who it is that's ending marriages, so I'm not claiming one way or the other.  Just saying that percentage alone doesn't tell a complete picture.  Of course, I also don't much care "who started it" - the solution to the problem of divorce (and any other problem) is found in the gospel of Jesus Christ regardless of what led to it or who filed papers.

Edited by zil
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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Isn't that the truth? I've also noticed you can't judge the financial stability of a family by what type of car they drive/home they have. Someone who looks well off might be teetering on bankruptcy and someone who looks "poor" might be a closet millionaire.  

My husband and I make well <30K a year.  We have one functional car, 20+ years old with 200,000 miles.  Our friends make ~90k a year with no kids.  Who has more money?  My husband and I are debt free, and friends are constantly facing bankruptcy.  

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I think divorce is a GREAT idea, as long as we are talking about her divorcing herself from her parents.

I was unemployed for over 2 years after the high tech crash in 2000, and it wasn't from lack of trying.  I finally got a job that payed the same rate I earned tutoring high school kids while I was in university, where employees were treated like dirt, and it was a 2 hour bus ride there and 2 hours back home every day.  That lasted a couple years then they laid everybody off and I was unemployed for 1.5 years after that.  Were times hard, you bet they were, but even when in-laws, parents, and others were casting a disdainful and suspicious eye my way over my failures, my wife stood by me and pushed back at their less than kind remarks.  She never turned on me and called me a failure or attacked me for what was happening and I needed that because I was down on myself over it enough on my own.

It wasn't until 2008 that I landed a good job that started to set things right, and when I got it I prayed that I would not forget the lessons I learned from that trial.  We came out of it with a stronger marriage than before and a lot more. 

Divorcing somebody you love over a low income is so shallow, so materialistic, so gold-digging, so immature, so short sighted, so selfish, so unchristian, so loving mammon rather than God.  Joseph Smith wasn't wealthy, Christ wasn't wealthy, Lehi lost all his money to Laban and lived in a tent, Job lost all his wealth, would she divorce them if she were married to them?

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1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

My husband and I make well <30K a year.  We have one functional car, 20+ years old with 200,000 miles.  Our friends make ~90k a year with no kids.  Who has more money?  My husband and I are debt free, and friends are constantly facing bankruptcy.  

If you feel comfortable sharing more, i would love to hear how you and your husband make it work!  These days, with the economy being so shaky, we could all use all the advice we can get... 

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11 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

I think divorce is a GREAT idea, as long as we are talking about her divorcing herself from her parents.

I was unemployed for over 2 years after the high tech crash in 2000, and it wasn't from lack of trying.  I finally got a job that payed the same rate I earned tutoring high school kids while I was in university, where employees were treated like dirt, and it was a 2 hour bus ride there and 2 hours back home every day.  That lasted a couple years then they laid everybody off and I was unemployed for 1.5 years after that.  Were times hard, you bet they were, but even when in-laws, parents, and others were casting a disdainful and suspicious eye my way over my failures, my wife stood by me and pushed back at their less than kind remarks.  She never turned on me and called me a failure or attacked me for what was happening and I needed that because I was down on myself over it enough on my own.

It wasn't until 2008 that I landed a good job that started to set things right, and when I got it I prayed that I would not forget the lessons I learned from that trial.  We came out of it with a stronger marriage than before and a lot more. 

Divorcing somebody you love over a low income is so shallow, so materialistic, so gold-digging, so immature, so short sighted, so selfish, so unchristian, so loving mammon rather than God.  Joseph Smith wasn't wealthy, Christ wasn't wealthy, Lehi lost all his money to Laban and lived in a tent, Job lost all his wealth, would she divorce them if she were married to them?

I appreciate you sharing that, LDM.  It sounds like you have a lot of character to get through that kind of trial.  I really respect that.

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4 hours ago, Backroads said:

Her sisters are all married to men making at least 100 grand.

Here appears to be her current downfall, comparing her life to her sisters. 

Is her 30k husband faithful to her, passionately love her, respect her, treat her like a cherished eternal companion, honor his priesthood, worship her like a queen, tend to her emotional needs, etc? Then be grateful for what she has, not what she doesn't. What if her 100k husband became ill/injured/disabled and was unable to work/provide again, is she going to divorce him then when he makes $0k? 

Elder Uchtdorf:

Quote

I want to tell you something that I hope you will take in the right way: God is fully aware that you and I are not perfect.

Let me add: God is also fully aware that the people you think are perfect are not.

And yet we spend so much time and energy comparing ourselves to others—usually comparing our weaknesses to their strengths. This drives us to create expectations for ourselves that are impossible to meet. As a result, we never celebrate our good efforts because they seem to be less than what someone else does (has).

 

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12 hours ago, Backroads said:

Chatting with a young associate today who has been married about three years, no children yet. She says she was raised to find a husband who makes a very good income, but her husband has not yet been able to secure a job paying over 30,000$ She is afraid if she has kids she won't be able to stay home. Her parents are encouraging her to divorce her husband if he doesn't find a way to make more money in the next year, and she really considering this. It is indeed a temple marriage. Her reasoning is that while she loves her husband, she doesn't feel he is living up to his duty by not being able to make enough.

My knee-jerk reaction would be similar to LDM.  But in the effort of giving the benefit of the doubt I'd ask "How hard is he trying?"

First $30k/year is generally considered a low income.  But is anyone starving?  Is there power and running water in the house?  Do they have food, shelter, and clothing?  Are their medical needs taken care of?  And most importantly, does he work hard? Does he have long term goals that he truly dreams about?  Is he working towards them?

You said she was a "young associate".  Well, I always considered you to be young.  If she' your age or younger, then, DUH.  Of course you're only going to make about that much.  Be proud of that.

Tell her that as long as he's got an average level of talent and ability, and he's willing to work hard and keep on trying and has faith in the Lord and honors his priesthood, then she should dump mum and da', and be as supportive as possible to her husband.  When the husband is good (per the above criteria) the biggest factor in increasing his income is a supportive wife.

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I slept on it and I wonder of she were speaking from mostly a place of worry about not being a stay-at-home mom. She sees me working, other teachers at our school with kids, hearing about a teacher (my neighbor, actually) who quit our school the other year to stay home who is now selling Norwex as her husband has a rookie cop salary. Me saying my ward is full of working moms didn't seem to help.

I want to say this gal is about 25, her husband about the same age. He graduated about two years ago and after struggling finding a career in his field went for something entry-level. In my mind it's probably not panic time yet.

But if she is indeed worried about staying home with kids I can approach that worry on its own.

 

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IMHO, unless some other expectation was set prior to marriage, LDS women do have a right to expect that their husbands will be able to earn enough that the wife can be a SAHM if she so chooses.  I agree with @yjacket that a man who isn't doing this--or at least, actively moving towards this as a goal--isn't doing right by his family.  A man who is already willfully shirking his responsibilities before the children even start coming, is putting his wife in the terrible position of having to choose between her husband and her future children; and I'm not prepared to say that the woman who (via divorce) chooses the latter over the former is wrong in every instance.

On the other hand--financial setbacks are part of life; and if the husband's own best efforts aren't enough to pull the family out of the ditch, then the wife can't just harrumph about how money is entirely his responsibility if she has spent the marriage chafing at the notion of "women's work" and insisting that he do fifty percent (and no less!!!) of the cooking, cleaning, laundry, child care, and other tasks that traditionally were traditionally associated with homemaking.  Marriage is all about compromise, give and take, and working together for the family's greater good.  Otherwise, just as men who want the status and perks of a "breadwinner" need to actually win the bread; women who want the status and perks that go with being a homemaker need to actually make the home.

(/rant)

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Adding to @Just_A_Guy 's rant... score-keeping is a guaranteed way to breed resentment and destroy affection in a marriage. 

I think there are a lot of times, maybe even most times, where one spouse is giving or doing more than the other. Part of the advantage of such a partnership is the benefit and privilege of another person to prop you up and make up the difference when you fall. Husband having a slump in his career? Spend less money and, if needed, find a way to supplement. Wife ill? Do more at home, or hire someone to help if able. There are periods of downturn in money, health (physical and mental), and the relationship in general. That's where the rubber hits the road when it comes to covenant keeping. Your loyalty and strength should go toward your eternal companion, not toward fussing over how things "should" be, calculating percentages of contribution, and, even worse, griping to anyone who will listen about where your spouse is letting you down. 

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