What advice would you give someone considering divorce over income?


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Guest MormonGator
47 minutes ago, unixknight said:

This image is high octane nightmare fuel.

What does it say about me that I think I want to keep it as a pet? @zil won't let me. 

(Actually LadyGator would throw me out so fast I really would have to start my own compound!)

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18 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

I take it as meaning that one spouse shouldn't say, 'that's totally your job, I'm not helping'.  I see those statements quoted being in the context of a woman going to work outside the home so they can have an inflated lifestyle, or out of the misguided feminist ideology that puts a career above motherhood.

Yes, but the argument is based on another truth as expressed by both Benson and Hunter:  that providing for the fundamental necessities of life is the husband's role, not the wife's.  I would agree that wives don't get to, in a moment of crisis,tell their husbands "well, stinks to be you!"; but on the other hand--men don't get to say "well, that didn't turn out like I planned--so why don't you go scrub toilets after hours for the next twenty years, while I come home from my eight-hour-a-day job and watch football -- er, the kids."

 

5 hours ago, NightSG said:

If you look at the underlying data (linked at the end of the article), the $50-$100K band of annual income had the lowest incidence of doubters; and no one in this thread has said that a man should be earning more than that.  (Tangent:  The author is also misleading her readers about the effect of education.  Those with postgraduate degrees are 16% more likely to doubt than college graduates.)

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4 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Wrong, your just wrong. I live in one of the most expensive parts of the US and my wife is a SAHM. Could she work sure she is educated and when we had no kids she did work, life was great plenty of $$. We made a decision when we had kids  that we would not let a stranger  raise them. What did this mean for me? Back to school and a career change . Working full-time, school full-time, working 2 jobs at one time 3 to make ends barely meet, and a position in the ward for me. I did it and am still working very hard so that I can be a better provider.

The world does not assume that 2 incomes are required you assume that.  If it means that you have 2 kids instead of 4 have 2. how could it possibly be better to have 4 kids and then not have either parent there for them?

Glad it worked out like that for you, and I hope you are grateful to God for it too.  It doesn't work out like that for everybody.  I know somebody who worked 70+ hours a week to support his family and keep his wife as a SAHM with 3 kids.  He was never around.  She had an affair and the marriage broke up in a bad way.  I spent the better part of a day with him while getting him admitted to a psych ward when he became suicidal. 

Not everybody has the capacity to do what you did, not everybody has the same opportunities for education, not everybody has the same career options, not everybody has the same fortunes or downturns.  People have to balance out their needs and ability and options and to try and get as close to the ideal situation as they can given their circumstances, but that will mean in many cases deliberately falling short in one or more areas to be able to move ahead in another.  What worked for you won't work for everybody, couples have to chart their own course and nobody should be looked down on or criticized by other ward members if they determine their best course is different from the one that you took. 

And I can assure you, when marketing people sit down to decide what to charge for this or that, they are setting the price based on what they expect middle class two income families will be willing and able to pay.  That is the market.

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4 hours ago, NightSG said:

Of course, the easy solution is to have a few extra wives so they can take turns staying home.

As I recall, back in the day there was one polygamous wife who went to the East Coast and became a medical doctor, then came back to SLC to practice medicine.  One of America's first female doctors.  Her kids were cared for by her husband's other wife and he supported her financially while she was away.  Worked out quite well. 

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30k a year?  It's not much. My housing costs $3,500 per month in the PRK and I consider that cheap. 

 

Of of course there's no input on where this guy is in his career and/or his future prospects. When my wife and I married we lived on two part time minimum wage salaries. We were smart enough not to have kids until we could afford it. I graduated and as I made more $$$$ we moved on with kids, house etc. 

The wife needs to take a step back and evaluate her life and what she really believes.

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20 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

The world today is a place where it is assumed a family has two incomes, and many things are priced on that basis. 

...In many cases being a stay at home mother is not realistic, at least some of the time, and it raises the question of what choice is better, to limit how many children you have so you can afford to be a stay at home mom, or have more kids and require two incomes as a result.

False dichotomy.

One of the greatest men I knew was a janitor for the Church.  Single income home.  He had 9 children.  Many of them went to college.  One fell away from the Church.  The rest were model citizens and saints.

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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

False dichotomy.

One of the greatest men I knew was a janitor for the Church.  Single income home.  He had 9 children.  Many of them went to college.  One fell away from the Church.  The rest were model citizens and saints.

Yeap . . .the most important attribute in raising kids for for them to be model citizens and saints, not showing them with toys/gifts/vacations/large homes/etc.  

You can't take the money with you-but you do take your attitudes and how you've treated others with you.

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11 hours ago, NightSG said:

Which has, unfortunately, led to the current attitude of financial overcompensation at the expense of actually being around to be a father.  

Even more unfortunately, that leads to a perception of fathers as somewhere between interchangeable and (when the woman has other means of income, or believes that child support and alimony will be enough) inconvenient and unnecessary.

My dad worked 60-80 hours a week most of the time.  Even then I would gladly have traded the annual vacation, other trips with mom, extra toys, etc. for having him get home in time to do more than say good night 5-6 days a week.

Well it's where the role of a father has changed.  Up until 75 years ago, the father was a role model and mentor.  Until the kid was old enough to help plow the fields (5-6ish) the mother had full reign.  Then the father started training the child in his trade.  The role of the father was one of leadership, authority and love.

Unfortunately now, the father must work away from the home to provide for the family so the children do not temporally see the father as much and thus their time with him to learn from him as a mentor is quite diminished. Now the father is seen as an appendage, that is there only to play with his kids-which is about as far from the true role of Father as you can get.  Kids have friends to play with-that is their role.  The role of a Father is not to play with the kid (it can be a part of bonding,etc, but it isn't the main part).

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13 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

30k a year?  It's not much. My housing costs $3,500 per month in the PRK and I consider that cheap. 

Mine is $300/mo, and while it's only ~550sf plus 450sf of loft, not that long ago had a family of four living in it.  Not one of the foreign families that's used to ten people sharing a small room, either; good old morbidly obese Americans.

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On 9/15/2016 at 6:39 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

Frankly, @anatess2, at this point I don't know where you're getting the basis for your absolutist anti-marital-dissolution argument.

Quite bluntly, you seem to be advancing a Catholic view of marriage on an LDS discussion board.  If that's the perspective you still hold to, that's certainly your choice; but IMHO you should be careful about trying to pass it off as LDS teaching.  Because--quite frankly--it just isn't.

I thought that the views Anatess was trying to advance or pass off were her on views and not those of the Catholic or LDS church. The fact that a person's own views may be similar to or even mirror those of another person or organisation does not change the fact that they are those person's own views. I also think there is much to commend in extreme loyalty and keeping the commitments one has made before God in His temple. However, I would say that when God has made clear, through personal revelation or inspiration in answer to prayer that it is time for a marriage to end, then it would be wrong for that marriage to continue. Ending a marriage as a result of anything less than this would also be wrong. Only He before whom the covenant was made can give approval to the termination of that covenant. 

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We're several pages in, so I can now do this. Based solely on the title:

Quote

What advice would you give someone considering divorce over income?

My advice is: TAKE THE INCOME! This is a no-brainer. Money AND marriage versus no money plus divorce? Why is this even a choice? Take income over divorce any day.

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  • 11 months later...

So... an update a year later. 

Her soon-to-be-ex has a new job, is making twice what he did before.

It's not over a hundred grand. She is planning on leaving him because her parents threatened her about the money income.

And... she has no idea how to support herself on 8$ TA job. Cried Friday about how her parents won't speak to her if she stays, she never finished her degree.

I despise drama.

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On 9/9/2016 at 6:54 PM, Backroads said:

Chatting with a young associate today who has been married about three years, no children yet. She says she was raised to find a husband who makes a very good income, but her husband has not yet been able to secure a job paying over 30,000$ She is afraid if she has kids she won't be able to stay home. Her parents are encouraging her to divorce her husband if he doesn't find a way to make more money in the next year, and she really considering this. It is indeed a temple marriage. Her reasoning is that while she loves her husband, she doesn't feel he is living up to his duty by not being able to make enough.

Can you imagine if Emma had the same thinking when marrying Joseph?

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15 hours ago, Backroads said:

So... an update a year later. 

Her soon-to-be-ex has a new job, is making twice what he did before.

It's not over a hundred grand. She is planning on leaving him because her parents threatened her about the money income.

And... she has no idea how to support herself on 8$ TA job. Cried Friday about how her parents won't speak to her if she stays, she never finished her degree.

I despise drama.

I don't get how people like that.  Her covenant is with God and her husband, not her parents.  How many other couples make a marriage work with those circumstances or worse?  Many.  Does she think she is better than them?  If I were her HT or a friend of her husband I would have some very harsh things to say to her.

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17 hours ago, Backroads said:

So... an update a year later. 

Her soon-to-be-ex has a new job, is making twice what he did before.

It's not over a hundred grand. She is planning on leaving him because her parents threatened her about the money income.

And... she has no idea how to support herself on 8$ TA job. Cried Friday about how her parents won't speak to her if she stays, she never finished her degree.

I despise drama.

Wow... just wow. 

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2 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

I don't get how people like that.  Her covenant is with God and her husband, not her parents.  How many other couples make a marriage work with those circumstances or worse?  Many.  Does she think she is better than them?  If I were her HT or a friend of her husband I would have some very harsh things to say to her.

Knowing her from work, if I may give my uncensored opinion, I think she is an immature princess with a toxic relationship with her parents.

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On 9/9/2016 at 8:54 PM, Backroads said:

Her reasoning is that while she loves her husband, she doesn't feel he is living up to his duty by not being able to make enough.

Wow!  I would be tempted to tell her she's an idiot if she thinks that is a good reason to divorce.  With the same breath I would tell her that after she divorces, her now ex-husband will probably become a millionaire and will get to share it with his next spouse who won't actually care about the money.

That said, for all I know he could be a lazy bum, at which point then she still shouldn't be getting a divorce, but instead, helping him find educational and career opportunities that would suit him, and also be capable of providing a better income for their family.  If her husband refuses, then he is possibly not living up to his commitment to be one with his spouse.

Another note:  My family lives comfortably on less than 30K/year.    I make more than that, but our expenditures are less than 30K.  If they are budgeting properly, 30K with one or two children in modern USA, they would essentially not be paying any taxes once refund rolls around, they would be able to make ends meet and have her stay at home.  Additionally, they would probably still even be able to save additional money for retirement since they would qualify for many government programs.  While I do not advocate using government programs like this, I see no reason why she can't be a homemaker with that level of income.

EDIT:  I just read the update.  If her husband is making around 60K, and she still wants to leave him over money, she is a fool who basically deserves to be alone.  She is what you call a "juice pouch".  This man is likely better off without her, and hopefully he realizes it.  Her parents are terrible people too if money is the real reason they are pushing for this.

Edited by person0
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3 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

How many other couples make a marriage work with those circumstances or worse?

The vast majority of them.  Look at the 3% divorce rate in Chile, where the average net salary is under $17k/year, for example.

Remember, 19 out of every 20 Earthlings don't live in the US.  18+ of those don't have anywhere near the standard of living we think we need.

Edited by NightSG
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23 hours ago, Backroads said:

So... an update a year later. 

Her soon-to-be-ex has a new job, is making twice what he did before.

It's not over a hundred grand. She is planning on leaving him because her parents threatened her about the money income.

And... she has no idea how to support herself on 8$ TA job. Cried Friday about how her parents won't speak to her if she stays, she never finished her degree.

I despise drama.

I'm feeling a lot less sympathetic than I seem to have felt last year.  $60K can still go awfully fast, depending on family size; but . . . the guy doubled his salary in a year!  She didn't exactly marry an inveterate bum here.

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On 9/10/2017 at 0:30 AM, Backroads said:

So... an update a year later. 

Her soon-to-be-ex has a new job, is making twice what he did before.

It's not over a hundred grand. She is planning on leaving him because her parents threatened her about the money income.

And... she has no idea how to support herself on 8$ TA job. Cried Friday about how her parents won't speak to her if she stays, she never finished her degree.

I despise drama.

Grow the <curse> up.

EDIT: FTR, I was thinking "heck".

Edited by Vort
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I wonder if one reason divorce is still pending is because hubby has had it with wifey's idiocy and has quit trying to convince her otherwise. He may have decided that if she wants to leave him, he's better off without her. I would find it hard to blame him in this case.

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I wonder how she would feel if he was complaining in a similar manor about her failure to live up her responsibility?  By her (and her parent's) logic she should have popped out and be raising the next prophet/noble prize winner/etc...  And more then more then likely more then one of them.

 

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On 9/9/2016 at 6:54 PM, Backroads said:

Chatting with a young associate today who has been married about three years, no children yet. She says she was raised to find a husband who makes a very good income, but her husband has not yet been able to secure a job paying over 30,000$ She is afraid if she has kids she won't be able to stay home. Her parents are encouraging her to divorce her husband if he doesn't find a way to make more money in the next year, and she really considering this. It is indeed a temple marriage. Her reasoning is that while she loves her husband, she doesn't feel he is living up to his duty by not being able to make enough.

The epitome of selfishness.

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This is good stuff.  If I would have posted about how women, Mormon women especially, are brought up being taught that you marry a RM with very very high earnings potential if not already filthy rich, (RM not always a prerequisite, but money definitely is) I would have been bashed, scolded, called a woman hater, told I dont know what I am talking about because women dont do that.

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