What advice would you give someone considering divorce over income?

[Just_A_Guy]

6 minutes ago, NightSG said:

If you're living where fast food pays $14.50/hour, you're not going to be able to afford to rent a one bedroom apartment on that, much less the enchanted castle these women are being told they're entitled to.

I think that was Omegaseamaster's point.  $30K per year is not a lot of money; and it's not unreasonable to expect men who aspire to the title and status of "breadwinners" to bring home an income significantly in excess of that amount.

[omegaseamaster75]

14 minutes ago, NightSG said:

If you're living where fast food pays $14.50/hour, you're not going to be able to afford to rent a one bedroom apartment on that, much less the enchanted castle these women are being told they're entitled to.

This is why discussions about parental roles, ambitions, etc  have to be had before you ever put a ring on it. You also need a back up plan. IMHO our wives should be educated to the same level that we are. If they sacrifice for us while we are in school we should sacrifice for them when we finish. Think about it, what if you, the bread winner gets sick? gets injured? becomes impaired in some way? Loses your job? our spouses who should not only be treated as equals but should be equal in every way need to be prepared for the worst. We have failed as spouses if they are unprepared for the real world. Even if your wife has not worked for 10 years because she was busy raising your kids until you got sick and couldn't work anymore she has that degree to fall back on. She won't have to clean house or work fast food to help out she can have a real job making real money until you are back on your feet.

[Just_A_Guy]

6 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

This is why discussions about parental roles, ambitions, etc  have to be had before you ever put a ring on it. You also need a back up plan. IMHO our wives should be educated to the same level that we are. If they sacrifice for us while we are in school we should sacrifice for them when we finish. Think about it, what if you, the bread winner gets sick? gets injured? becomes impaired in some way? Loses your job? our spouses who should not only be treated as equals but should be equal in every way need to be prepared for the worst. We have failed as spouses if they are unprepared for the real world. Even if your wife has not worked for 10 years because she was busy raising your kids until you got sick and couldn't work anymore she has that degree to fall back on. She won't have to clean house or work fast food to help out she can have a real job making real money until you are back on your feet.

I agree with this generally; but would note that many of these contingencies can be planned for by life insurance, unemployment insurance, long-term disability insurance, etc--which might, in the long run, be cheaper and a better option than having the wife complete her professional training.  (Unless, of course, she wants to . . .)

[omegaseamaster75]

11 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I agree with this generally; but would note that many of these contingencies can be planned for by life insurance, unemployment insurance, long-term disability insurance, etc--which might, in the long run, be cheaper and a better option than having the wife complete her professional training.  (Unless, of course, she wants to . . .)

Agreed, we can add that to the list. look at where you live figure out what  your wife and children will need if the worst happens to you and get a policy to cover it. IMHO unemployment insurance and long term disability  are not viable long term options. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by omegaseamaster75

[NightSG]

44 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think that was Omegaseamaster's point.  $30K per year is not a lot of money; and it's not unreasonable to expect men who aspire to the title and status of "breadwinners" to bring home an income significantly in excess of that amount.

In some places.  OTOH, here, you could afford that apartment on minimum wage.  You wouldn't have much else unless you did some OT, but I've kept my rent, bills, groceries and car expenses paid on $17k.

34 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

IMHO our wives should be educated to the same level that we are. If they sacrifice for us while we are in school we should sacrifice for them when we finish. Think about it, what if you, the bread winner gets sick? gets injured? becomes impaired in some way? Loses your job?

Or, far more common, what if some other irreconcilable difference comes up?  I've never heard of divorce insurance, and even if it's out there, I doubt it covers enough and long enough to start over on getting a degree.  I meet way too many women in the Single Adults program who were talked into ditching college by that "wonderful RM in med/law/whatever school" only to find out too late that he's flunking out, can't keep it in his pants and/or is intolerably abusive.  Then they stay with him way too long because they're not qualified for anything that pays better than waiting tables, and when it's completely unbearable, they're stuck making minimum wage at 30-55 years old.

[Just_A_Guy]

36 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Or, far more common, what if some other irreconcilable difference comes up?  I've never heard of divorce insurance, and even if it's out there, I doubt it covers enough and long enough to start over on getting a degree.  I meet way too many women in the Single Adults program who were talked into ditching college by that "wonderful RM in med/law/whatever school" only to find out too late that he's flunking out, can't keep it in his pants and/or is intolerably abusive.  Then they stay with him way too long because they're not qualified for anything that pays better than waiting tables, and when it's completely unbearable, they're stuck making minimum wage at 30-55 years old.

That's what alimony is supposed to be for. 

[omegaseamaster75]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

 I meet way too many women in the Single Adults program who were talked into ditching college by that "wonderful RM in med/law/whatever school" only to find out too late that he's flunking out, can't keep it in his pants and/or is intolerably abusive.  Then they stay with him way too long because they're not qualified for anything that pays better than waiting tables, and when it's completely unbearable, they're stuck making minimum wage at 30-55 years old.

This is why the culture needs to change

[omegaseamaster75]

37 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

That's what alimony is supposed to be for. 

In a perfect world yes, unless your spouse is in business for himself, or works construction then everything is cash, he gets to plead poverty (when really things are well) and the wife gets nothing.  Far better to have an education to fall back on.

[NightSG]

32 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

This is why the culture needs to change

I proposed disemboweling as a punishment for at least serious physical spousal abuse, but my bishop said it wouldn't be worth the trouble of passing it up the ladder.  Yet another case where the Church could do some good, but refuses to change.

30 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

In a perfect world yes, unless your spouse is in business for himself, or works construction then everything is cash, he gets to plead poverty (when really things are well) and the wife gets nothing.

Or you live in a state with significant restrictions.  Or he has a good lawyer.  Or the judge is divorced and paying a fortune to his ex.

Edited September 13, 2016 by NightSG

[Just_A_Guy]

10 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

This is why the culture needs to change

Somewhat, but maybe not as drastically as one might think.  I think a little more extensive pre-wedding vetting, would make it a much safer bet for young LDS women to commit to starting families earlier, even at the expense of their own educational/professional development.  I mean, I don't think honeymoon babies are a divine mandate; but there's something to be said for having a lot of kids, and having them all grown while you are still in your forties or early fifties.  And while the popular statistic is that 50% of marriages end in divorce, I think that with proper vetting you could close that likely failure rate to 15% or less--at which point, if one is otherwise committed to self-directed learning and not overly enraptured of the prestige that accompanies a college degree, three years of tuition might look like a steep price to pay for a contingency plan.

9 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

In a perfect world yes, unless your spouse is in business for himself, or works construction then everything is cash, he gets to plead poverty (when really things are well) and the wife gets nothing.  Far better to have an education to fall back on.

A very valid point.    A good forensic accountant, working with a PI, can ferret a lot of that out; but it costs money to build a case like that. 

For what it's worth, though; my experience is that divorce doesn't magically turn honest guys into dishonest ones.  With the nastiest divorce cases I've handled--there were signals of grave character defects on display even before the wedding; but the parties were too twitterpated to care.

[mordorbund]

Where did my signature go?

Quote

This is why we need arranged marriages.

 

[zil]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think a little more extensive pre-wedding vetting, would make it a much safer bet for young LDS women to commit to starting families earlier, even at the expense of their own educational/professional development.

I wonder if they teach this in YW these days.  They certainly didn't in my day.

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

twitterpated

::tee hee:: (we need a new icon)

[Latter-Day Marriage]

4 hours ago, NightSG said:

If you're living where fast food pays $14.50/hour, you're not going to be able to afford to rent a one bedroom apartment on that, much less the enchanted castle these women are being told they're entitled to.

When I proposed, I was in my second month of my first year of post secondary education just after getting back from my mission.  No savings, no car even.  A woman should look at a man's work ethic, integrity, commitment, values, priorities, what his plans are.  If she looks at his property and his income as the important things then she is closer to being a prostitute than a wife.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think that was Omegaseamaster's point.  $30K per year is not a lot of money; and it's not unreasonable to expect men who aspire to the title and status of "breadwinners" to bring home an income significantly in excess of that amount.

Depends on a lot of things.  Not everybody is a college grad, not everybody can be.  My son in law is a hard worker, a good man, but at THIS point in his life he has not arrived at that income level.  Down the road he will, and better, but not now and anybody who judges him as lazy or unambitious or deficient in some other way is ignorant and judging with unrighteous judgement.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 I think a little more extensive pre-wedding vetting, would make it a much safer bet for young LDS women to commit to starting families earlier, even at the expense of their own educational/professional development.  I mean, I don't think honeymoon babies are a divine mandate; but there's something to be said for having a lot of kids, and having them all grown while you are still in your forties or early fifties.

Amen.  My wife and I knew each other for over 4 years before I popped the question.  We spent hours talking when together and wrote each other many many long letters.  We knew each other very, very well including most all our life story.  She didn't slap the blinders on  when I was on my mission, she had a social life and part of her coming to know for sure I was the one was to date other guys and compare us.  Her giving up her education temporarily and being a stay at home mom most of the time has been a great blessing to our kids and to me as well. Having a stay at home spouse is a great career advantage and a better lifestyle than having two working parents no matter how high the income.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

. . .  anybody who judges him as lazy or unambitious or deficient in some other way is ignorant and judging with unrighteous judgement.

Almost anybody. 

For his wife (or, were he single, for a potential marriage partner), making such judgments is quite simply a matter of survival.

[askandanswer]

I haven't read all the posts, but I think the counsel President Uchtdorf gave his address during the Priesthood session of April General Conference may be relevant here

A Society of Disposables

I think another reason this tender scene has stayed with me for so long is the contrast to some of today’s attitudes. In so many societies around the world, everything seems to be disposable. As soon as something starts to break down or wear out—or even when we simply grow tired of it—we throw it out and replace it with an upgrade, something newer or shinier.

We do this with cell phones, clothes, cars—and, tragically, even with relationships.

While there may be value in decluttering our lives of material things we no longer need, when it comes to things of eternal importance—our marriages, our families, and our values—a mind-set of replacing the original in favor of the modern can bring profound remorse.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/in-praise-of-those-who-save?lang=eng

 

 

[Backroads]

11 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

For the OP 30k? you can make that working fast food....If I was the husband I'd go to my school and ask for a refund on that useless degree.

Not in our area. The big buck fast food jobs are praising 10 an hour. No where near 30 grand a year.

GettING all angry about the degree... to what end? If the husband goes back for more training she's still looking at a few more years before they get the desired income, barring finding another field or career that will offer him more.

 

I believe the guy is currently working as a DE/professional Scouter, which does start out at about 30,000. I have a few buddies in the same career, and it does take a few years to get much more money.

 

Edited September 14, 2016 by Backroads

[Backroads]

10 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think that was Omegaseamaster's point.  $30K per year is not a lot of money; and it's not unreasonable to expect men who aspire to the title and status of "breadwinners" to bring home an income significantly in excess of that amount.

But how much time ought one give a husband to earn a significant amount? And what amount are we looking for? My neighbor is married to a cop who will probably never make more than 45 grand. Currently my husband brings in about 40 grand in his job that has no relation to his career. My brother also brings in 40,000 in his degreed job... all these men having only been out of school a couple of years. Let's not even mention those married to teachers. 

It just seems to me many fields just don't have stellar starting salaries.

Should a divorce be acceptable later down the road if the husband has failed to bring in x amount?

(I read this post as sounding quite accusing... I promise I'm just satisfying my what-if curiosity mind as I delve for new views)

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Backroads said:

But how much time ought one give a husband to earn a significant amount? And what amount are we looking for? My neighbor is married to a cop who will probably never make more than 45 grand. Currently my husband brings in about 40 grand in his job that has no relation to his career. My brother also brings in 40,000 in his degreed job... all these men having only been out of school a couple of years. Let's not even mention those married to teachers. 

It just seems to me many fields just don't have stellar starting salaries.

Should a divorce be acceptable later down the road if the husband has failed to bring in x amount?

(I read this post as sounding quite accusing... I promise I'm just satisfying my what-if curiosity mind as I delve for new views)

Here's the deal.  This thread isn't actually about income at all.  It is about selfish choices.  It is about men who are not willing to put any effort whatsoever towards working for their wives' dream of being a SAHM.  It is about the man not listening to his wife and instead forcing his will on her.

This is what distinguishes the happy blacksmith mentioned earlier... obviously, the happy blacksmith making $28k has a wife who is totally on board with him making $28k.  It doesn't matter how much he is making, if both he and his wife are on board.  If his wife is unhappy with that lifestyle and wants to be a SAHM (or ever becomes unhappy), it is time for a conversation between the two of them.  And a good husband will listen to his wife, put aside his selfish desires, and help her attain the goal of being a SAHM or whatever (assuming the Lord is on board with this goal after prayer).  But if both are happy with the lifestyle (and assuming no interests of children are harmed), it doesn't matter if the husband is making $7k and doing some kind of vandwelling adventure with his wife or making $700k and living in a mansion.  The point is both the husband and wife are on board with the direction and state of things.

Your husband makes 40k (which is roughly the median household income for Houston, TX).  If you are OK with his career and direction, then it is perfectly, 100% fine that he is making 40k.  If at any time you start wishing he would do something else or get an MBA or something so you can attain a goal such as being a SAHM, then you should sit down with him and tell him that you would like for him to try something else, and that you accept the risk of failure with him and will stand by him no matter what as he works towards this goal (as ANY career comes with the risk of failure - just ask all of the doctors who failed to secure residencies!)  The right thing for him to do at that point would be to listen, pray about it, and if at all possible and in the will of the Lord start working towards acommodating you, even at the expense of his personal desires!

A few more observations: I agree that $30k for fast food is unrealistic in my region (TX), unless you work in fast food for years and get into restaurant management (and it can take years of experience).  Same goes for what I have seen waiting tables.  If there is an easy, surefire way to make $30k, I would sure like to know about it - I would love the social safety net!

Also, I don't know that anyone on this thread would consider divorce an acceptable solution to this problem - divorce is supposed to be only a possible solution for very serious problems, such as adultery, addiction, and abuse.  This is more of a "talk it out" sort of situation.

Edited September 14, 2016 by DoctorLemon

[Sunday21]

16 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

That's what alimony is supposed to be for. 

In my country alimony lasts maybe 4 years for those who really need it. If a woman has kids and big if, Hubble makes a sizeable income, and if you are lucky, you can get some help going back to school. Eventually no matter how low your education and how many kids you have, you are on your own. The kids may get some support but the wife is on her own. Most divorced women end up in poverty here.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Sunday21

[Backroads]

Goals and new plans are great things, but this gal is considering a year ultimatum. If she wants her husband to make more money, she either needs to accept it probably won't be much more than what he's making now or realize a return to school would be over a year in time.

[Backroads]

5 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

 

A few more observations: I agree that $30k for fast food is unrealistic in my region (TX), unless you work in fast food for years and get into restaurant management (and it can take years of experience).  Same goes for what I have seen waiting tables

I can't imagine working for years just to make 30,000.

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, Backroads said:

I can't imagine working for years just to make 30,000.

Plenty of people all over the world work their entire lives without making that much.  On average, they certainly appear to have better luck at marriage than Americans, too.

[Backroads]

15 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Plenty of people all over the world work their entire lives without making that much.  On average, they certainly appear to have better luck at marriage than Americans, too.

 You're right. I am humbled.