What advice would you give someone considering divorce over income?

[NeuroTypical]

Very well answered sir.

Edited September 13, 2017 by NeuroTypical

[Guest]

If you really have to know the truth, I didn't marry a plain girl.  But I am pretty plain myself.

These days I look a lot like Al from Home Improvement.

[NeuroTypical]

False modesty!  I've heard things some women have said about this guy back in the day.

[NightSG]

10 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

It is hard to raise righteous children when you are living in the ghetto and can't afford to keep the lights on.

Really?  Lots of righteous children have been raised in exactly those conditions.  Brigham Young comes to mind, as does Dolly Parton.  (Say what you may about her fashion sense, I would challenge you to name any one person who has done more for childhood literacy, and the things she never openly takes credit for would take days to compile a lost of.)  Steve Buscemi's parents were a trash man and a waitress, and he still went back to work 12 hour shifts with the FDNY 16 years ago.  I'm not sure how much that cost him at the time in acting fees missed, but he was already well known at the time, so I'd guess it was well into the tens of thousands.  

[Backroads]

On 9/12/2017 at 10:15 AM, Jane_Doe said:

"Women" as a whole don't do that.

This singular woman did that.

You're over generalization tendency is at work again,. 

I shared the idea itself on a LDS women FB group. There were a handful of comments about knowing a few other such LDS girls behaving so, but not many. All comments were disgusted.

[Backroads]

On 9/13/2017 at 10:38 AM, Vort said:

I don't know that a man can control his income more closely than a woman can control how nice she looks.

I deplore our society's penchant for judging a woman based on how pretty it thinks she is. But I equally deplore our society's penchant for judging a man by how much money he earns. I do not see one as being more virtuous than the other.

It's true. While one can train and seek careers that pay $X on average salary/wage websites and even negotiate payment to some extent, one can't just say I will make 300 grand and never be laid off/fired/subject to economies/find dream job.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Backroads

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, Backroads said:

It's true. While one can train and seek careers that pay $X on average salary/wage websites and even negotiate payment to some extent, one can't just say I will make 300 grand and never be laid off/fired/subject to economies/find dream job.

And even if they could, is that an appropriate criterion with which to judge someone? Should every right-thinking man be expected to take the highest paying job he can find? Is the size of the paycheck truly the measure of a man? I vote no.

[Backroads]

On 9/13/2017 at 2:15 PM, DoctorLemon said:

 

As a side note, is anyone doomed to be a plain woman?  I think all women who adhere to basic hygiene, keep the commandments, etc. are attractive.

There's a lot of truth here. Are you clean, kempt, avoid a slovenly appearance? You probably look fine.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Backroads
To annoy Vort and demonstrate the editing process

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Backroads said:

There's a lot of truth here. Are you clean, kempt, avoid a slovenky appearance? You probably look fine.

Not all women would wish to avoid a Slovenky appearance.

(Fair warning: Googling will result in PG-13 images.)

[Backroads]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

And even if they could, is that an appropriate criterion with which to judge someone? Should every right-thinking man be expected to take the highest paying job he can find? Is the size of the paycheck truly the measure of a man? I vote no.

I think of that Adam Smith fellow of Chik-Fil-A fame. I actually read his book. The big CEO millionaire job he lost was the result of intentionally seeking what major and career would pay the most the fastest without too much training, with the luck of getting hired.

Look how that turned out.

You're right. The highest payed guy isnt automatically the best husband/father/man.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

And even if they could, is that an appropriate criterion with which to judge someone? Should every right-thinking man be expected to take the highest paying job he can find? Is the size of the paycheck truly the measure of a man? I vote no.

It's not the measure of the man; but it's certainly a measure of the lifestyle.  And when you marry a breadwinner, you are marrying their lifestyle.

Its not that one should deliberately go looking for a wealthy man; it's that one should think long and hard before committing to a poor one.  (Especially a poor one who intends to remain poor because he smarmily asserts poverty as a virtue.)

[Bad Karma]

I'd rather be a poor and honest soldier of meager means with a heart that is true, chosen by a godly woman who sees that my heart is true, that I am of meager means and that I love with all my might, than be a rich man, with some swimsuit model tightly wrapped round my wallet. If neither of these are then me, I would rather be blessed by heavenly father to live out my days alone, spending my life seeking HIM. 

[Backroads]

11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It's not the measure of the man; but it's certainly a measure of the lifestyle.  And when you marry a breadwinner, you are marrying their lifestyle.

Its not that one should deliberately go looking for a wealthy man; it's that one should think long and hard before committing to a poor one.  (Especially a poor one who intends to remain poor because he smarmily asserts poverty as a virtue.)

To me, a poor man is the guy who chooses to see what is the least he can get away with, who would be intentionally condemning a family to poverty. Not the guy who doesn't make quite as much as the guy on the richer side of the ward.

I guess your use of the word lifestyle is rubbing me the wrong way. That's a hard thing to gauge when you're in college or just starting out, and certainly can change. Does the advice of long and hard thinking alter further up the lifestyle scale? What advise would you give to a potential bride who is overly excited over a guy's high income and possibly ignoring other issues and qualities?

Edited September 15, 2017 by Backroads

[estradling75]

In my opinion our expectation of "lifestyle" has been  just as much distorted as our expectation of "female attractiveness"

The proclamation says "provide" it does not say 6 figure income.  And a man should be attracted to his spouse (and a woman to her spouse)... but that does not mean the woman needs a pair of Double Ds or to look like barbie.

In my mind it is wise to look for someone who can provide and for someone that is attractive to you, but to define that so narrowly as to a certain dollar amount or certain body type is a sign of immaturity.

[Dillon]

1 hour ago, Backroads said:

To me, a poor man is the guy who chooses to see what is the least he can get away with, who would be intentionally condemning a family to poverty. Not the guy who doesn't make quite as much as the guy on the richer side of the ward.

I guess your use of the word lifestyle is rubbing me the wrong way. That's a hard thing to gauge when you're in college or just starting out, and certainly can change. Does the advice of long and hard thinking alter further up the lifestyle scale? What advise would you give to a potential bride who is overly excited over a guy's high income and possibly ignoring other issues and qualities?

This is why the divorce rate is so high. Women get smitten by all the money, the big house, her new Mercedes. After a few years she realizes she cant stand the guy and she thinks for a second- I have two kids that he will have to pay for, he will have to pay me a nice chunk every month too, plus I will get about half of what "we" have. After claiming physical and emotional abuse she gets all this plus the house and the poor ex is left living in a rented one bedroom apartment and sees his kids 2 days a month.

[Jane_Doe]

53 minutes ago, Dillon said:

This is why the divorce rate is so high. Women get smitten by all the money, the big house, her new Mercedes. After a few years she realizes she cant stand the guy and she thinks for a second- I have two kids that he will have to pay for, he will have to pay me a nice chunk every month too, plus I will get about half of what "we" have. After claiming physical and emotional abuse she gets all this plus the house and the poor ex is left living in a rented one bedroom apartment and sees his kids 2 days a month.

Dillion, is the following accurate:

"Mrs Dillon is smitten by all the money, the big house, her new Mercedes. After a few years she realizes she cant stand Dillon and she thinks for a second- I have two kids that he will have to pay for, Dillion will have to pay me a nice chunk every month too, plus I will get about half of what "we" have. After claiming physical and emotional abuse she gets all this plus the house and the poor Dillion is left living in a rented one bedroom apartment and sees his kids 2 days a month."   

That is what you just said.  Are you words accurate and what you meant to say?

Edited September 15, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, Backroads said:

To me, a poor man is the guy who chooses to see what is the least he can get away with, who would be intentionally condemning a family to poverty. Not the guy who doesn't make quite as much as the guy on the richer side of the ward.

I guess your use of the word lifestyle is rubbing me the wrong way. That's a hard thing to gauge when you're in college or just starting out, and certainly can change. Does the advice of long and hard thinking alter further up the lifestyle scale? What advise would you give to a potential bride who is overly excited over a guy's high income and possibly ignoring other issues and qualities?

Yeah, I agree with your first paragraph.  There are a lot of schlubs who turn their schlubbiness into a point of pride rather than trying to change it.  Again, to me it isn't about pursuing wealth; it's about avoiding the grinding poverty of moving repeatedly due to foreclosure/eviction, not knowing month after month for years on end how you're going to make ends meet, etc.  

We get so wrapped up in the 10-20% of cases where such poverty is unforeseeable, that we often end up persuading young women that they cannot and should not try to spot the 80-90% of cases where such poverty *is* foreseeable

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Dillon said:

This is why the divorce rate is so high. Women get smitten by all the money, the big house, her new Mercedes. After a few years she realizes she cant stand the guy and she thinks for a second- I have two kids that he will have to pay for, he will have to pay me a nice chunk every month too, plus I will get about half of what "we" have. After claiming physical and emotional abuse she gets all this plus the house and the poor ex is left living in a rented one bedroom apartment and sees his kids 2 days a month.

Dillon:

I spent the first eight years of my law practice (up through last December) primarily as a divorce lawyer.  From your posts, it is patently clear that you have absolutely *no idea* what you are talking about.  

You do not know why women leave.

You do not know how child custody is determined, or the statutory or common law factors that go into the analysis.  You do not know the statutory minimal schedule for non-custodial parents.

You do not know how child support is calculated.

You do not know how the amount, or the duration, of alimony is determined. 

You do not know how marital or pre-marital property is allocated.  You do not know the principles of home equity or liability for outstanding mortgages; or how those principles go into a divorce property settlement.

You sure as Hades don't know anything useful about any sort of spousal abuse.

Your posts on these matters thus far have contained little knowledge and no wisdom at all.  They are fundamentally hyperbolic, ignorant bile.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[estradling75]

12 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Your posts on these matters thus far have contained little knowledge and no wisdom at all.  They are fundamentally hyperbolic, ignorant bile.

It also shows that he is bad at math too.

Simple math states that if a single house hold has an income of X dollars then that income supports a certain lifestyle.

In divorce the income of X does not magically increase.  Instead that X dollar amount is divided in two household (-minus lawyer fees).  Math tells us that those two household have to have less then X income individually so both lifestyles supported must be less then the original (although they might not be equally less).  Thus anyone (male or female) thinking that divorce is going to increase the amount of money they have is also bad at math.

 

 

[Just_A_Guy]

4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

It also shows that he is bad at math too.

Simple math states that if a single house hold has an income of X dollars then that income supports a certain lifestyle.

In divorce the income of X does not magically increase.  Instead that X dollar amount is divided in two household (-minus lawyer fees).  Math tells us that those two household have to have less then X income individually so both lifestyles supported must be less then the original (although they might not be equally less).  Thus anyone (male or female) thinking that divorce is going to increase the amount of money they have is also bad at math.

Yep.  Utah has a nice little court of appeals case with language about how you can't cut a queen-size blanket in half and expect to get two twin-sized blankets.

[Dillon]

Oh ok,  so there are no divorced couples in the US where the wife is collecting child support and alimony and has full custody and lives in the home they once shared?  You are saying that has never happened? Oh because you believe that a woman never ever marries for money and never ever initiates a divorce.  Oh and you also say that a wife has never falsely accused a husband of abuse?  Never?  

[Dillon]

And I never said anything about amounts of money. I said the woman realizes she made a mistake and cant stand the guy and decides that his support (ever how much support it is) is better than lying next to him at night.

[Dillon]

My comment was directed to the more well off and wealthy men,  the ones that get these hot wives that stick around for about 2 years and then get millions in a settlement. I was not talking about the average Joe that gives his wife 50 bucks a week in child support. I was talking about the women that marry for money.

[Jane_Doe]

15 minutes ago, Dillon said:

Oh ok,  so there are no divorced couples in the US where the wife is collecting child support and alimony and has full custody and lives in the home they once shared?  You are saying that has never happened? Oh because you believe that a woman never ever marries for money and never ever initiates a divorce.  Oh and you also say that a wife has never falsely accused a husband of abuse?  Never?  

Dillion, you said every women marries a man for the Mercedes.  That includes your wife.

You are now trying to defend you false claims by arguing against another absolutist claim that no one here made.  

16 minutes ago, Dillon said:

And I never said anything about amounts of money. I said the woman realizes she made a mistake and cant stand the guy and decides that his support (ever how much support it is) is better than lying next to him at night.

Did you wife do this?

13 minutes ago, Dillon said:

My comment was directed to the more well off and wealthy men,  the ones that get these hot wives that stick around for about 2 years and then get millions in a settlement. I was not talking about the average Joe that gives his wife 50 bucks a week in child support. I was talking about the women that marry for money.

Whether or not you meant to say it applies to every women (including your wife and mother), that is what you did indeed say.  If you did not mean to say, I recommend you pay closer attention to what you say.

[Dillon]

Most people will marry for money, expect to be divorced, says Wall Street Journal

 

Among the women in their twenties who said they would marry for money, 71% said they expected to get divorced -- the highest of any demographic. Only 27% of men in their 40s expect expected to divorce.