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7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I do not believe we have knowledge (truth) of evil (or good) and the consequences of evil until we understand and experience death or the consequences of good until we experience redemption.  Joseph Smith said that truth is the knowledge of things as they were, as they are and as they will become.  Since knowledge is truth we must have the truth which is knowledge not just that evil exist but that it brings death. --- Both the first and second death.  And that good bring life

As we live in mortality we live by faith and not knowledge.  When we are resurrected we will stand before G-d – in his presents and complete or agency to receive eternal life or eternal death -- a choice of agency that we will exercise with full knowledge of good and evil.   Those that do not repent because they love darkness more than light will have eternal darkness or if we desire eternal light according to our desire and thus use our agency.  But I do not believe we have knowledge of good or evil in this life – rather we choose our path in this life by faith – either faith in Christ or faith in something else (example fame, money, pleasure or power all of which are elements of Satan or his lies and temptations).

Thanks for asking – hope this give insight to my thinking and understanding.

The Traveler

@Traveler ,

Alma 32 teaches you can have knowledge in this life even when your knowledge isn't perfect (e.g. Alma 32:33-36).  There's also: “If a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come” (D&C 130:19)  Also, "“By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things” (Moroni 10:5).  Don't you believe we can have some knowledge, even if not a full knowledge?

Do you believe we can experience any of the consequences of evil besides death (e.g. sorrow, guilt, remorse, pain) like Alma in Alma 36:12-13?

What about experiencing some level of redemption in this life (e.g. heart changing, feelings love, humility, patience, desire to do good, etc.)?   What do you think of Alma 36:20,25-26 which says, "And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain! ... behold, many have been born of God, and have tasted as I have tasted, and have seen eye to eye as I have seen; therefore they do know of these things of which I have spoken, as I do know; and the knowledge which I have is of God"?  Alma 5:26 also teaches that we can know somewhat of redemption,  "if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?"  I sincerely hope that you have experienced and felt the redemptive power of Christ in your life.

What do these scriptures mean with your Eden theory?

  • "for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents. (2 Nephi 2:21) How are all men lost due to Adam and Eve?
  • "those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam" (Mosiah 3:11) and "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression" (Romans 5:14)  How are some that didn't do what Adam did fallen?
  • "Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life..." (Alma 42:3)  Is this talking about after Adam dies and is redeemed?  In your theory, isn't he already living forever at this point?  What's the other fruit and what's the point in guarding it after Adam knows good and evil?
  • It seems you feel as though we all brought about mortality (or none of us did), rather than mortality coming due to Adam & Eve.  What of the several places in Romans 5 as well as 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 making a big deal about death coming about by one man (Adam) and death being conquered by one man (Jesus)?

What does Eden represent?  Was there a physical place, Eden, that God created on earth where Adam and Eve once lived?

Did God create the world in a fallen mortal state, or in another state and something else caused its fall?  If something else, what?

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@Traveler.

Shortly after I posted my last comment I thought of another scripture about knowing good and evil.  Moroni 7:12-17 teaches that the light of Christ is given to every man that they may know good and evil.

 

 12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

 13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

 14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

 15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

 16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

 17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

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Thank you @Rhoades for your questions.  I can give some insights from my understanding and my own question and investigations into this theater of inquiry.   There is, in the way we humans communicate, both a transfer of understanding as well as ambiguity.  When we say we have knowledge – what does that mean?  Can we have both knowledge and faith?  Is it possible to have knowledge of something and at the same time do not have knowledge?  Allow me to give an example:

Example: We speak of life and death and we have knowledge of life and death.  We can encounter a tree and say this tree is alive or we may say another tree is dead.  Every day we identify many friends and acquaints that we know are alive.  From time to time we encounter people and “things” that are dead.  We have knowledge of what is alive as well as what is dead.  Though we have knowledge of life and death and can identify many “things” that are alive or dead – we may not have knowledge of what life or death is – we may have faith of things that may be part of life or death but not knowledge.

From scripture we learn that all “things” have an opposite.  There is light and darkness, bitter and sweet and for our discussion – good and evil.  We are also told – or given understanding that without the contrast of opposites – our knowledge is not complete – or that we do not have knowledge.  In other words without the bitter we cannot “know” the sweet.  This is a very interesting thought concerning knowledge.  We are given understanding that the very Plan of Salvation requires that we become acquainted with the contrasts in order that we gain such knowledge.

I believe that the spirit can give us knowledge that good and evil exist.  And we can know that one thing is associated with good and another with evil – but without the acquaintance of the contrast we cannot have knowledge of what either good or evil actually is.  In short the contrast of opposition is a necessary element and experience in order that we can have certain knowledge of things and their opposite – and thus with agency - we may choose between the things of contrast.  As you ask me about the reference in scripture to knowledge that is manifest by the spirit - that we are talking about something different than the knowledge of contrasts of things of opposition.  The spirit can give us knowledge that there are contrasts and the opposites but without the experience that is provided in the great Plan of Salvation we cannot possess the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  It is why we must fall in order that we move beyond our experience of the Pre-existence to a glorified being with knowledge of good and evil.

I realize that my explanation does not answer all question concerning this matter – nor does it explain and resolve all that is given in scripture or that we will encounter in our mortal experience of contrasts.  I do believe that my explanation can take us a “step” closer to understanding and faith in the Plan of Salvation – or as Isaiah implied – “Line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.”  But I also worry about the concept of forever learning but never coming to an understanding of the truth.

 

The Traveler

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In the centuries following the Great Apostasy, a false Gnostic teaching crept into Christianity that has been called the "Serpent Seed" doctrine. The doctrine taught that "Original Sin" as Catholics and Protestants refer to Adam and Eve's transgression, was sexual intercourse.  The eating of the forbidden fruit is a metaphor for sexual relations.  The "Serpent Seed" version of it goes so far as to say that Eve had intercourse with Satan and then seduced Adam.  Latter-day Saints have never taught such a doctrine.  

Wikipedia gives some further info:

Quote

The idea that Eve mated with the serpent, or with Satan, to produce Cain, has been taught in various forms for thousands of years, and it finds its earliest expression in Gnostic writings (e.g., the Gospel of Philip) and especially in Manichaean doctrines;[citation needed] however, it was rejected by mainstream Christian theologians such as Irenaeus.[1] The idea appears in a 9th-century book called Pirke De-Rabbi Eliezer.[7] In his book Cain: Son of the Serpent, David Max Eichhorn traces the idea back to early Jewish Midrashic texts and identifies many rabbis who taught that Cain was the son of the union between the serpent and Eve.[7]

The doctrine has been taught by fringe Christian movements even into the present day.  It has been used to justify racism, bigotry, and oppression of women.  One variation of the doctrine states that Cain was the offspring of Satan and that his seed is still present on the earth.  The racist "Christian Identity" movement still teaches this.  

Catholics and Protestants avoid going into speculations on what "Original Sin" was, but because of the biblical passages mentioned earlier in the thread, there is a presumption that the Fall was Eve's fault.  The LDS understanding is far more generous to Eve, who is celebrated as Adam's eternal companion, help-mate, and forms a more liberal notion of the roles of men and women as equal partners in marriage.  We understand that we wouldn't be here unless they made the conscious choices they did.  We are blessed because of their transgression and our eyes are opened to the gift of redemption.

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Which commandment was broken first – the commandment to go forth and multiply, or the commandment not to eat of the fruit? Genesis 1:28 suggests that the commandment to multiply was given prior to the commandment not to eat of the fruit, and therefore, for every day in between when the commandment to multiply was given, and when they actually did start to multiply, Adam and Eve were transgressing, or living contrary to, that commandment. If we accept the idea that prior to taking the fruit Adam and Eve were not able to conceive and multiply, then we must accept the idea that on at least one occasion, contrary to what Nephi says in 1 Nephi 3:7, God gave a commandment that could not be fulfilled at the time it was given. If Adam and Eve did violate Gods first commandment by not initially multiplying, as appears to be the case, then the lack of a response, or punishment, or consequence, from God, as opposed to His rapid response to the eating of the fruit, seems to be puzzling. Why did the breach of a the first commandment lead to no response, but the breach of the second commandment resulted in quite a significant response?

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6 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Genesis 1:28 suggests that the commandment to multiply was given prior to the commandment not to eat of the fruit, and therefore, for every day in between when the commandment to multiply was given, and when they actually did start to multiply, Adam and Eve were transgressing, or living contrary to, that commandment.

I've you're going to interpret that commandment as require immediate obedience, then you'll need to interpret every commandment as requiring immediate obedience, and given that none of us has enough hours in the day to do every commandment all the time (take, for example, family history, temple work, missionary work, prayer, scripture study, and service - can we really do all those at the same time, all the time), we'd all spend so much time repenting that we'd never have time to stop repenting and go do some of the things we're supposed to be doing.

1 Nephi 3:7 is not contrary to anything - the Lord provided a way - which is all that scripture says - it doesn't say what that way will be or when it will be provided, only that it will.  And it was.

The breach of the second commandment was done in a moment, and once done, it was done.  As for the "multiply" commandment, unless they were given a timeframe (start by, or due by), can we really say they were in violation just because they hadn't figured it out yet?

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Did Eve really sin/transgress by eating the fruit? Both the Pearl of Great Price and Genesis are quite specific in saying that the commandment not to eat of the fruit was given to Adam, not Eve.

(Old Testament | Genesis 2:16 - 17)

 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 3:16 - 17)

6 And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,

17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

It’s quite clear that when God was giving joint instruction that applied to both Adam and Eve, He used the plural “them.”

28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply,

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 2:28)

28  And I, God, blessed them, and said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 Perhaps the fact that in Genesis 2:16 – 17 and Moses 3: 16 - 17 He quite specifically referred only to Adam, rather than to Adam and Eve, suggests that the commandment for Adam not to eat of the fruit was only intended for Adam.

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5 minutes ago, zil said:

I've you're going to interpret that commandment as require immediate obedience, then you'll need to interpret every commandment as requiring immediate obedience, and given that none of us has enough hours in the day to do every commandment all the time (take, for example, family history, temple work, missionary work, prayer, scripture study, and service - can we really do all those at the same time, all the time), we'd all spend so much time repenting that we'd never have time to stop repenting and go do some of the things we're supposed to be doing.

1 Nephi 3:7 is not contrary to anything - the Lord provided a way - which is all that scripture says - it doesn't say what that way will be or when it will be provided, only that it will.  And it was.

The breach of the second commandment was done in a moment, and once done, it was done.  As for the "multiply" commandment, unless they were given a timeframe (start by, or due by), can we really say they were in violation just because they hadn't figured it out yet?

As far as we know, Adam and Eve had no other commandments at the time that they needed to keep.

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5 minutes ago, zil said:

IMO, that changes nothing.

It means that they had plenty of time and opportunity to keep the one commandment that they had been given but they did not do so. The possible excuse that they may have had for not keeping this commandment because they were too busy keeping other commandments, eg, family history, scripture study, temple work, and service, does not apply in this case. If we have been given a commandment, and we choose not to do it, even though we have the time and opportunity to do so, and we have absolutely nothing else to do, have we not sinned by omission? There are various examples in the Doctrine and Covenants where commandments were revoked, or Joseph Smith was rebuked, for tardiness in keeping God's instructions.

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40 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

It means that they had plenty of time and opportunity to keep the one commandment that they had been given but they did not do so.

We have no evidence that time existed in the Garden of Eden - they and it were eternal, immortal.  We have no evidence that God specified a "by this date", "after no more than this duration", "immediately" or any other such time constraint on them.  I am not prepared to say in my ignorance that Adam and Eve were sinning based on whether or not they had started to multiply.

We teach little children that God has commanded us to marry and have children - shall we fault them for not getting on with it immediately?  Adam and Eve were, as we are told, as little children when they started out in the Garden of Eden.  Do you know when they had advanced far enough that failure to reproduce changed into a sin?  I sure don't.

I didn't offer that list as an excuse for Adam and Eve, I offered it as an explanation for why the "immediately" implication of your interpretation cannot always be applied to all commandments, and if it cannot always be applied to all commandments, then I see no reason for why it should necessarily be applied to this commandment to Adam and Eve.

The simple fact is, we weren't there.  We don't know exactly what happened.  We don't know how much of this is literal and how much is an effort to teach us.  We don't know how Adam and Eve went about learning or trying to understand this commandment and how to obey it.  We are woefully ignorant to be proclaiming whether or not they were committing sin by not immediately reproducing.  (Maybe they were, maybe they weren't, we have no way of knowing and therefore no right to make the claim either way.)

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On 9/24/2016 at 4:26 PM, askandanswer said:

Did Eve really sin/transgress by eating the fruit? Both the Pearl of Great Price and Genesis are quite specific in saying that the commandment not to eat of the fruit was given to Adam, not Eve.

...

Perhaps the fact that in Genesis 2:16 – 17 and Moses 3: 16 - 17 He quite specifically referred only to Adam, rather than to Adam and Eve, suggests that the commandment for Adam not to eat of the fruit was only intended for Adam.

The scriptures do suggest that Eve knew about the commandment from God and thought it applied to her as well.  Genesis 3:2-3 says "And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."  Moses 4:8-9 says a similar thing.

Another source to learn about the creation and fall is the temple endowment.  After studying the fall in Genesis and Moses due to this thread, the next time I went to the temple (last week) I noticed some slight differences in ordering compared to the scriptures.  Maybe it was done that way just for convenience in telling the story, but I believe there's further evidence that the commandment also applied to Eve.  Also, the variations between Moses and the temple suggest to me that the ordering isn't extremely important for us to be able to learn what's most important.

Other verses I happened upon last week include:

Moses 6:53 which says "And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden."  Adam needed to be "forgiven" .  However, given what Moses 6:54 says it may be different than your typical evil sin needing forgiveness.  Little children being redeemed as taught in Moroni 8:8 comes to mind.  Moses 6:48 through the rest of the chapter has some good teachings about the fall.

Mosiah 16:3 which says "... that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall;  which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil."  One thing that stood out to me was "beguile our first parents."  One could use this to reason that Adam was also beguiled.  But you could also interpret it as they collectively as a couple were beguiled due to Eve and Adam followed Eve for other reasons.  This verse also teaches about "knowing evil from good".  I've noticed scriptures about knowing good and evil a lot this past week.

Alma 12 starting at verse 21 through the rest of the chapter, and even the first part of Alma 13 provide more light on the subject.  This and other scriptures make me really appreciate that there is great commentary on the fall in the Book of Mormon.

EDIT ====================

I'm now in Alma 42 and 1-11 has more great material about the fall.  It's so relevant to some of the posts in this thread I had to add it.

 

Edited by Rhoades
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On 9/24/2016 at 4:29 PM, askandanswer said:

As far as we know, Adam and Eve had no other commandments at the time that they needed to keep.

Although this may seem minor, I think it's important enough to mention.  Multiplying and not eating a certain fruit weren't the only commandments.  They were commanded to remain together (See Moses 4:18).  We can infer from this especially with Moses 3:24 and Gen 2:24 that they were commanded to be as one just like any married couple.  The commandment to be one is far more than just multiplying.

Also, they were given stewardship over the garden and were to take care of it.  Moses 3:15 says "to dress it, and to keep it" (although I'm not sure what taking care of a garden is like before the fall).

Edited by Rhoades
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Often discussions of ancient Hebrew poetic verses take on the nature as though such texts must be interpreted as literal and exclude all possible references to symbolic understanding.  I believe that even actual events can be used metaphorically.  The official designation of such metaphorical usage of literal events in scripture is; “Types and Shadows”.   

This idea that there are deeper hidden references in scripture that can only be properly understood through the spirit of itself can create ideas of mystic keys that unlock things in scripture.  This is a different notion than things understood spiritually and has given rise to such concepts such as numerology or the idea that hidden knowledges can be unlocked by knowledge of secret keys rather than by the spirit.

It is my belief that the creation epoch as well as the Eden epoch recorded in our scripture utilizes an ancient Hebrew poetic form as a clue that we should not go deep into analyzing such scripture with a singular intent and literal passion for the verses.  Such literal interpretations create contradictions.  For example: we learn through revelation that Satan was exiled from the presents of G-d under the hand of the Arch angel Michael – but in the garden epoch the presents and influences of Satan is clearly represented by the serpent in the presents of G-d to tempt Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit implying that contrary to warnings – unclean spiritual influences can indeed reside with comfort and abilities to misdirect while in the very presents of G-d.

I believe Adam and Eve to be the first of fallen mankind to reside on earth but I do not believe that the choice to partake of the fruits of knowledge of good and evil was exclusive in mankind to include only Adam and Eve – such belief is a contradiction that G-d is a just G-d.  I do not believe Eden to be a literal place that we can purposely or accidently discover within the real literal space time of our earth – meaning that there was a literal necessity to post Cherubim with a flaming sword to prevent anyone from finding the Tree of Life.  But I believe Jesus the Christ fulfils all the symbolism of a Cherub with fire and sword (as referenced in the Book of Revelation) to assist and guide us (according to covenant with G-d) to eternal life and exaltation – that is symbolically represented in the Garden Epoch as the Tree of Life.

When we isolate specific scripture to quote separately – we only create a theater of contradictions that we can endlessly argue over our various miscues of doctrine and quote other separate scripture to convince ourselves that we are right and others are wrong – which is the work of Satan.  The work of G-d brings unity not just between different religious sects but even within the very Kingdom of G-d and all the children of the covenant.  And this thought could be expressed in many threads throughout this forum.

 

The Traveler

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