I was doing so well on the polygamy issue until institute last night

[Guest]

I hadn't thought about the issue or the possibility of it again until institute last night. The class was Eternal marriage. The teacher who is a female was teaching the class and going through D&C 132 and she brought up the New and Everlasting covenant introduced to Joseph Smith and she claimed plural marriage is part of that new and everlasting covenant and then she went on to tell the class about Russell M Nelson and Dallin H Oaks remarrying and she said she told her husband as a joke not to remarry a young brat. The class is mainly female so I have no idea how they thought about having a female institute teacher bringing this up, but she claimed people her age were always taught plural marriage would be a part of the Celestial Kingdom in institute growing up. But she did also use an example of Richard G Scott who didn't remarry and said it wouldn't be necessary for exaltation. I'm still trying to process in my mind how to feel. What I'm trying to do is focus on finding 1 girl in this lifetime who I want to spend eternity.

[mrmarklin]

Trust me, one wife is more than enough. In almost every way!

[Edspringer]

@Zarahemla, as an Institute missionary, I can tell you two things on the issue:

1) plural marriage was instituted in ancient times and when the Church was restored. For our sake, the Lord decided to descontinue this commandment. When will we be able to live it again? Well, certainly the Lord knows we need to be ready to live this and many other important commandments, such as the law of consacration;

2) this female institute teacher might have said something out of her mind, for, as far as I'm concerned, there´s no institute book that fosters the idea of plural marriage the way she put it. Mentioning Elders Oaks and Nelson and even Elder Scott doesn't, in my opinion, add to the subject of plural marriage very much. Elders Nelson and Oaks haven't lived plural marriage in this life, so to speak, for they're not living with more than one woman at a time. After this life, it's only up to the Lord and His wisdom. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Edspringer
misspelled word

[anatess2]

As a former Catholic who believed wholeheartedly (complete with spiritual inspiration) on the Catholic belief of marriage, I spent extra time studying Eternal Marriage to see how that spiritually-inspired testimony fits into the restored gospel of Eternal Marriage.  What really made it click for me is polygamy.

So, reading the OP, I don't see anything wrong with how the Institute Teacher explained it.  But you have to see marriage in an ETERNAL perspective and not a legally-binding temporal ceremony (the difference between an earthly marriage and an eternal marriage).

The Catholics understand marriage as temporal - it ends in death.  So much so that even as Catholics do not allow divorce and re-marriage, you can re-marry after your spouse has died - because, in Catholic belief, the first marriage has been dissolved at death.

Eternal Marriage puts this belief on a spin.  If marriage does not end in death but is eternal, then when your spouse dies and you remarry, you now have 2 spouses in eternity.  So, if you think about the Eternal Purpose of Marriage - there is no difference between having 2 spouses, one dead, one alive and having 2 spouses both alive.  Now, I have not heard of any Christian faith that has a problem at all with a person re-marrying after the death of a spouse.  I wouldn't have a problem with my husband re-marrying after my death.  In my experience, having to face the subject of polygamy is actually what made me understand the import of Eternal Marriage so much so that because have no problem with my husband re-marrying after my death, I have no problem with him marrying even when I'm still alive.  It doesn't change our Eternal Marriage at all.  So, I can see how God instituted polygamy for the elect as a step towards the restoration of the gospel of Eternal Marriage.

So, really, the only thing that gives us pause is the idea of our husbands loving another woman while we are still alive - it's a mortal weakness that has no place in eternity (as evidenced by our acceptance of our spouses marrying after our death).  Because of this mortal weakness, after Eternal Marriage was restored, God commanded us to end the practice of polygamy.

My 2 cents.

[omegaseamaster75]

Plural marriage was discontinued because the United States outlawed it and Utah wanted statehood, oh and the GA's didn't want to go to jail.

[omegaseamaster75]

15 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

What I'm trying to do is focus on finding 1 girl in this lifetime who I want to spend eternity.

Sounds like a good plan

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Plural marriage was discontinued because the United States outlawed it and Utah wanted statehood, oh and the GA's didn't want to go to jail.

I don't think God would care one whit if the US outlawed anything if polygamy was still instrumental in the mission of the restoration of the gospel and the spiritual growth of the Saints.

[omegaseamaster75]

5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I don't think God would care one whit if the US outlawed anything if polygamy was still instrumental in the mission of the restoration of the gospel and the spiritual growth of the Saints.

God might not care but our leaders sure did.

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

God might not care but our leaders sure did.

So... you're implying that polygamy being banned from the Church was not God's command but simply something the leaders did?

Edited September 16, 2016 by anatess2

[omegaseamaster75]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

So... you're implying that our leaders acted outside the will of God?

I wasn't there......a quick reading of the history, and the political climate point to our leaders being heavily influenced by their desires to achieve statehood and avoid further prosecution.

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I wasn't there......a quick reading of the history, and the political climate point to our leaders being heavily influenced by their desires to achieve statehood and avoid further prosecution.

We don't have to be there to know if polygamy was banned by God or man, right?

[omegaseamaster75]

10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

We don't have to be there to know if polygamy was banned by God or man, right?

My personal opinion is that it was banned due to political pressure, not because they wanted to. As evidenced by the fact that after the 1st manifesto they did not stop.

[Edspringer]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I don't think God would care one whit if the US outlawed anything if polygamy was still instrumental in the mission of the restoration of the gospel and the spiritual growth of the Saints.

Well, I think God wouldn't do anything that could bring any harm to His children, even laws and commandments. We have cases in the scriptures when the Lord, mercifully, gave a lower law to His people. PERSONAL OPINION: maybe with the growth of same-sex marriage, the laws of men may change in a way that permits a guy to marry multiple wives. Then, in this generation, the Lord could again command plural marriage.  But it's only speculation from my part.

 

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So, reading the OP, I don't see anything wrong with how the Institute Teacher explained it.  But you have to see marriage in an ETERNAL perspective and not a legally-binding temporal ceremony (the difference between an earthly marriage and an eternal marriage).

 

The problem is not what she said, but the context. It could sound something that the CES teaches in its classes about Eternal Marriage. As I understood it, she said something of her own responsability and all CES teachers are strongly advised not to raise doubt in the students' minds. For example, this term's course is FOUNDATIONS OF THE RESTORATION, in which plural marriage will be discussed, but in the historical context. It wont' be taught how this particular law will be brought to pass in the eternities. Just for our convinience, I will post here the truths the students must understand about this law (as stated in the referred course book):

Plural marriage is an acceptable practice only when the Lord commands it;

Marriage between one man and one woman is God’s standard unless He commands otherwise;

The commandment to live the law of plural marriage in the latter days was part of the Restoration of all things;

Plural marriage can be authorized only through the priesthood keys given to the President of the Church.

If we are to discuss any details about plural marriage besides the doctrine as it is in D&C 132 and the information in the History of the Church, we will merely speculate on the matter. But I already said it in another situation in this forum: I'm open minded and any further information on the subject that is clear enough to be discerned, I'll be most glad to receive it!

 

 

[Just_A_Guy]

3 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

My personal opinion is that it was banned due to political pressure, not because they wanted to. As evidenced by the fact that after the 1st manifesto they did not stop.

FWIW--they did slow the practice way, way down (in fact, they had already done so a year prior to the Manifesto). 

That said - I think sometimes God does give instructions to humans, not because He thinks those instructions represent an ideal course of conduct; but because they become necessary in the face of the opposition or adverse conditions that then exist.  The priesthood ban, I think, was probably another such situation. 

As far as polygamy goes:  while government opposition was probably a major factor in eliminating polygamy, I also think that--while lots of Church members were doing their best--there was just too much harm being done by people who weren't living polygamy the right way.  (My family history has a couple of examples of this; and I also sometime ago came across a local history in American Fork that talked of a young wife in a polygamous marriage who was locked out of the house on a winter's night by her elder "sister wives" because she had chosen to go to a social function in spite of the sister wives' request that she stay home and attend to household duties.  She ended up freezing to death, right there on her own doorstep.)

Edited September 16, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[CV75]

On 9/15/2016 at 8:28 PM, Zarahemla said:

I hadn't thought about the issue or the possibility of it again until institute last night. The class was Eternal marriage. The teacher who is a female was teaching the class and going through D&C 132 and she brought up the New and Everlasting covenant introduced to Joseph Smith and she claimed plural marriage is part of that new and everlasting covenant and then she went on to tell the class about Russell M Nelson and Dallin H Oaks remarrying and she said she told her husband as a joke not to remarry a young brat. The class is mainly female so I have no idea how they thought about having a female institute teacher bringing this up, but she claimed people her age were always taught plural marriage would be a part of the Celestial Kingdom in institute growing up. But she did also use an example of Richard G Scott who didn't remarry and said it wouldn't be necessary for exaltation. I'm still trying to process in my mind how to feel. What I'm trying to do is focus on finding 1 girl in this lifetime who I want to spend eternity.

Both kinds of marriage direct us into exaltation, so for me it doesn't matter as long as we abide the law we are given in our own lifetime, in holiness.

[Sunday21]

Thought stopping? Recite a scripture in your head or a hymn?

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Thought stopping? Recite a scripture in your head or a hymn?

Should I recite D&C 132?

[askandanswer]

On 9/17/2016 at 1:51 AM, omegaseamaster75 said:

Plural marriage was discontinued because the United States outlawed it and Utah wanted statehood, oh and the GA's didn't want to go to jail.

 

 

In England and other countries, centuries ago, when the laws of the country did not allow freedom of worship, the laws stayed the same, but those who objected moved to America. In Missouri, when the decree of the governor inhibited freedom of worship, the decree remained the same but the church moved to a place where they could practice freedom of worship. When it comes to continuing or discontinuing polygamy, I think the Lord may have had more than one option up His sleeve rather than just allowing politicians in Washington to put an end to His plans. Washington is a powerful place but its not that powerful.

On the other hand

I'm reminded of the incident with Martin Harris when he repeatedly asked Joseph Smith if he could be given the transcript of the translation to show his wife and others. The Lord said no twice, but eventually said yes. It seems as if it was not the Lords intent or desire to allow Martin to be given the transcript, but perhaps because He was repeatedly asked, He said yes, with conditions. Those conditions were not adhered to. As a result, something important was lost. This was something that the Lord had prepared for thousands of years earlier, so His works were not halted, but we, His children, no longer have access to the fulness of the blessings that may been contained in the 116 pages.

My point is that sometimes the Lord might agree to a course of action not consistent with His original intent, if sufficiently pressed to do so, as long as His overall works and plans are not thwarted. This might be what happened with the discontinuation of polygamy. Perhaps it was not the Lord's intent to end it, but because He was repeatedly importuned by His prophet and others, He did so. We miss out on whatever blessings might have been attached to the practice of plural marriage, but His works carry on and those legislators who created the difficulties are answerable for their actions.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by askandanswer
re-spaced the paragraphs

[HiJolly]

Everywhere the Saints practiced polygamy, it is my understanding that it was illegal at that time. Ohio, (not sure about Missouri), Illinois, Mexico, Canada. The difference was, how motivated was the government in each place in enforcing the law.

[Anddenex]

On 9/15/2016 at 6:28 PM, Zarahemla said:

I hadn't thought about the issue or the possibility of it again until institute last night. The class was Eternal marriage. The teacher who is a female was teaching the class and going through D&C 132 and she brought up the New and Everlasting covenant introduced to Joseph Smith and she claimed plural marriage is part of that new and everlasting covenant and then she went on to tell the class about Russell M Nelson and Dallin H Oaks remarrying and she said she told her husband as a joke not to remarry a young brat. The class is mainly female so I have no idea how they thought about having a female institute teacher bringing this up, but she claimed people her age were always taught plural marriage would be a part of the Celestial Kingdom in institute growing up. But she did also use an example of Richard G Scott who didn't remarry and said it wouldn't be necessary for exaltation. I'm still trying to process in my mind how to feel. What I'm trying to do is focus on finding 1 girl in this lifetime who I want to spend eternity.

In my studies, and my simple knowledge of the gospel, I have wondered why some are constantly up in arms over "plausible" truths. Why do we as members, and even investigators, create turmoil within ourselves over truth and "plausible" truths.

If a doctrine is true. Then there is no need to fuss. God is either good and just, or not. There is no middle ground. God either loves us and does all that is "good" for the benefit of his children (as scripture specifies) or he doesn't. God is good and just. God does everything for the benefit of his children and all that is good comes from God. We can firmly place our trust in his infinite wisdom: faith, hope, and charity.

If polygamy is a truth of the eternities, then why do some people let it bother them? If true, then we only hurt ourselves by kicking against the pricks. Our learning, mind and heart, in the eternities will not be held back by mortal prejudices. We will begin to see everything in its sphere of truth. As a father, I often wonder how God feels when he speaks truths, and his children gnash their teeth, like my own children on simple truths (i.e. Dinner will be ready in 15 minutes...."Oh, but I am starving now!" It still doesn't change dinner will be ready in 15 minutes). They fuss over a simple truth as it doesn't fit their current prejudice. If polygamy is not an eternal principle, then great, why make a fuss. If polygamy is an eternal principle, then it is an eternal principle, and if not revealed now, knowledge and understanding will be given in the eternities and we move on.

At this moment, we have been commanded again to have one wife, and one wife only (living). Thus in reference to this statement, "What I'm trying to do is focus on finding 1 girl in this lifetime who I want to spend eternity," this is all you have been commanded to do. Move forward, and don't worry about what is out of your control, and may or may not, be in the eternities.