The impact and power of prayer

[askandanswer]

This is a question that I hope will result in an increased understanding of how prayer works, and its power and impact, by asking three questions. The answers to the questions are not essential, in that whatever the answers may, I will not be changing my current actions in relation to praying for President Monson. However, it may well be that whatever further understanding I may gain from this discussion could increase, and make more effective, my faith.

I believe that every day, in temples and homes and church meetings around the world, there are thousands of people praying for President Monson. How many more people would it take to pray for increased health and strength for President Monson before we could expect to see an increase in his health and strength? How many fewer people would it take to pray for an increase in President Monson’s health and strength before we could expect to see a decrease in his health and strength? Will President Monson’s current levels of health and strength be unaffected no matter how many or how few people pray for him as long as that level of health and strength is what the Lord wants it to be? 

[skalenfehl]

Quote

D&C 50:

 26 He that is ordained of God and sent forth, the same is appointed to be the greatest, notwithstanding he is the least and the servant of all.

 27 Wherefore, he is possessor of all things; for all things are subject unto him, both in heaven and on the earth, the life and the light, the Spirit and the power, sent forth by the will of the Father through Jesus Christ, his Son.

 28 But no man is possessor of all things except he be purified and cleansed from all sin.

 29 And if ye are purified and cleansed from all sin, ye shall ask whatsoever you will in the name of Jesus and it shall be done.

 30 But know this, it shall be given you what you shall ask; and as ye are appointed to the head, the spirits shall be subject unto you.

Most important in each of our lives is to know God's will in each of our lives. Then to do what is God's will in our lives. Cart before the horse. 

[Guest]

I want to know if Satan can hear our silent prayers and if he can read our minds. I want my prayers and mindo to be heard by Heavenly Father.

[CV75]

20 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This is a question that I hope will result in an increased understanding of how prayer works, and its power and impact, by asking three questions. The answers to the questions are not essential, in that whatever the answers may, I will not be changing my current actions in relation to praying for President Monson. However, it may well be that whatever further understanding I may gain from this discussion could increase, and make more effective, my faith.

 

I believe that every day, in temples and homes and church meetings around the world, there are thousands of people praying for President Monson. How many more people would it take to pray for increased health and strength for President Monson before we could expect to see an increase in his health and strength? How many fewer people would it take to pray for an increase in President Monson’s health and strength before we could expect to see a decrease in his health and strength? Will President Monson’s current levels of health and strength be unaffected no matter how many or how few people pray for him as long as that level of health and strength is what the Lord wants it to be? 

 

 I'd say the answer to each of your questions is that is up to the Lord, and that He has His reasons for inspiring so many people to pray to President Monson.

[Edspringer]

On 17/09/2016 at 7:23 PM, askandanswer said:

I believe that every day, in temples and homes and church meetings around the world, there are thousands of people praying for President Monson. How many more people would it take to pray for increased health and strength for President Monson before we could expect to see an increase in his health and strength? How many fewer people would it take to pray for an increase in President Monson’s health and strength before we could expect to see a decrease in his health and strength? Will President Monson’s current levels of health and strength be unaffected no matter how many or how few people pray for him as long as that level of health and strength is what the Lord wants it to be? 

There is some scripture background I’d like to point out:

Mormon 5:21 – The Lord will remember the prayers of the righteous

Proverbs 15:29 – The Lord hears the prayers of the righteous

Alma 10:22-23; 62:40 – people are spared because of the prayers of the righteous

James 5:16 – we can pray for another person to be healed

1)      As we get older, our strength and health diminish and this is according to our genetic, diet, sleep and exercise habits. In our days there is so much information available on how to increase our health and strength, thus living longer and healthier. So, becoming an elderly person is to have strength and health diminish.

2)      I believe that we shouldn’t pray to alter the Lord’s will, but to align our will to His, just like our Savior taught through His own example.

3)      In my opinion, we should pray for president Monson to be able to perform his duties as a prophet as long as the Lord desires. We can pray for his health and strength, but to wish the Lord to save our prophet from all frailties of life is to wish Thomas S. Monson to live forever as a prophet and that sounds a little selfish to me, for I presume he is longing for his beloved wife’s company.

On 17/09/2016 at 10:23 PM, Zarahemla said:

I want to know if Satan can hear our silent prayers and if he can read our minds. I want my prayers and mindo to be heard by Heavenly Father.

Satan has no mind control power. Actually no living being has such power, as far as I’m concerned. The most intelligent part of men was never created and is co-eternal with God.

The power Satan has is to influence our thoughts by suggestion, not compulsion. But it doesn’t mean he can read our thoughts. He doesn’t actually need to, for our actions speak loud enough for him to listen.

We are admonished to prayer both silently and vocally. I believe that silent prayers help us to be constantly connected with the Lord. So, in this case, we don’t need to be knelt or with our eyes closed. I think it is to have a prayer in our hearts.  When we pray silently, it’s my personal opinion that we dedicate our thoughts to God, which I believe it’s to serve God with all our mind. When we pray vocally, I think we want to hear our own voice and have a confirmation to ourselves of what is being said. Personally I feel more power when I pray vocally.

No matter if our prayers are silently or vocally: our Father in Heaven listens to both, as long as they are honest and sincere.

[Traveler]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 4:23 PM, askandanswer said:

This is a question that I hope will result in an increased understanding of how prayer works, and its power and impact, by asking three questions. The answers to the questions are not essential, in that whatever the answers may, I will not be changing my current actions in relation to praying for President Monson. However, it may well be that whatever further understanding I may gain from this discussion could increase, and make more effective, my faith.

 

I believe that every day, in temples and homes and church meetings around the world, there are thousands of people praying for President Monson. How many more people would it take to pray for increased health and strength for President Monson before we could expect to see an increase in his health and strength? How many fewer people would it take to pray for an increase in President Monson’s health and strength before we could expect to see a decrease in his health and strength? Will President Monson’s current levels of health and strength be unaffected no matter how many or how few people pray for him as long as that level of health and strength is what the Lord wants it to be? 

 

I am inclined that prayer is more a means of changing the individual so involved in the expression of the prayer than in altering how G-d is continuing in his oversight and plan for the continuance of the universe and things in it.  The LDS Bible Dictionary on "Prayer" does indicate that certain blessings are reserved in heaven and made available through prayer.

 

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 7:23 PM, Zarahemla said:

I want to know if Satan can hear our silent prayers and if he can read our minds. I want my prayers and mindo to be heard by Heavenly Father.

From my personal experience it would seem that Satan is able to dissever a great deal about what we are thinking and planning and also has some ability in regards to answering our prayers.  For example I have personally conversed with individuals that say that they have prayed about the Book of Mormon and have told by the G-d that answers their prayers, that the Book of Mormon is false.  I am convinced that Satan makes every effort to supplant his answers into our prayers and that according to the laws of justice and the gift of agency that he has the same opportunity as G-d in answering our prayers.

I believe Satan has the advantage in answering our prayers when our personal desires cloud the truth we think we are seeking.  This, I believe, is one of the great reasons that we must strive to be humble in our prayers and submit our will to G-d’s in the attitude of “not mine but thy will be done”.

 

The Traveler

Edited September 22, 2016 by Traveler

[askandanswer]

On 9/20/2016 at 2:55 AM, Edspringer said:

2)      I believe that we shouldn’t pray to alter the Lord’s will, but to align our will to His, just like our Savior taught through His own example.

 

 

On 9/22/2016 at 0:12 AM, Traveler said:

I am inclined that prayer is more a means of changing the individual so involved in the expression of the prayer than in altering how G-d is continuing in his oversight and plan for the continuance of the universe and things in it.  The LDS Bible Dictionary on "Prayer" does indicate that certain blessings are reserved in heaven and made available through prayer.

The Traveler

The idea that the purpose of prayer is to bring our will into alignment with the Lord’s will seems to be a relatively new idea to me, ie, something that has emerged in the last 15 or so years. To me, this idea does not seem to have much support from the scriptures.

The evidence that Christ taught this idea through His own examples of prayer seems to be somewhat ambiguous and examples in the scriptures seem to be readily capable of more than one interpretation. In the Garden of Gethsemane when He prayed, He first prayed for something that He knew was directly contrary to His Father’s will – “if it be possible, let this cup pass from me” = before finishing by saying “not as I will but as thou wilt.” One of several possible conclusions that can be drawn from this incident is that His purpose in praying was to find a way to escape what He knew was coming – if it be possible, let this cup pass from me.

In the Lord’s prayer, which was specifically given as an example of prayer, there is one line that could be interpreted as an attempt to bring our will into alignment with His will  - Thy kingdom come, thy will be done-  but most of the prayer is taken up with asking for specific petitions from the Father, eg, give us this day, our daily bread, forgive us our debts, lead us not into temptation, and deliver us from evil. These are all requests motivated by our own needs and desires.

In the other great example of prayer by Jesus, the great intercessory prayer in John 17, there is almost nothing at all about Christ bringing His will into alignment with His Father’s: much of that prayer is petitions for the benefit of His apostles who He is soon about to leave.

In His direct teachings about prayer, it clearly and repeatedly indicates that the primary purpose of prayer is to ask God for the righteous things that we need, and there is nothing to indicate that the purpose of prayer is to bring our will into alignment with His. For example

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 27:29)

29  Therefore, ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you; for he that asketh, receiveth; and unto him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

 

(New Testament | Matthew 21:22)

22  And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 18:20)

 And whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you.

 

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 4:7)

Ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.  Amen.

 

And in the great Book of Mormon example, recorded in Alma 34, where Amulek teaches the people how to pray, he teaches them to ask for several types of material, personal benefits, along with some spiritual blessings

(Book of Mormon | Alma 34:17 - 27)

17  Therefore may God grant unto you, my brethren, that ye may begin to exercise your faith unto repentance, that ye begin to call upon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon you;

18  Yea, cry unto him for mercy; for he is mighty to save.

19  Yea, humble yourselves, and continue in prayer unto him.

20  Cry unto him when ye are in your fields, yea, over all your flocks.

21  Cry unto him in your houses, yea, over all your household, both morning, mid-day, and evening.

22  Yea, cry unto him against the power of your enemies.

23  Yea, cry unto him against the devil, who is an enemy to all righteousness.

24  Cry unto him over the crops of your fields, that ye may prosper in them.

25  Cry over the flocks of your fields, that they may increase.

26  But this is not all; ye must pour out your souls in your closets, and your secret places, and in your wilderness.

27  Yea, and when you do not cry unto the Lord, let your hearts be full, drawn out in prayer unto him continually for your welfare, and also for the welfare of those who are around you.

 

Directly opposed to the idea that the purpose of prayer is to bring our will into alignment with the Lord’s will are several examples in the scriptures of where the Lord seems to have changed His mind in response to prayer:

2 Kings 10: 1-6

1  IN those days was Hezekiah sick unto death.  And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

2  Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying,

3  I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight.  And Hezekiah wept sore.

4  And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,

5  Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.

6  And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

 

Helaman 11: 1-5

Nephi persuades the Lord to replace their war with a famine—Many people perish—They repent, and Nephi importunes the Lord for rain—Nephi and Lehi receive many revelations—The Gadianton robbers entrench themselves in the land. About 20–6 B.C.

 

1  AND now it came to pass in the seventy and second year of the reign of the judges that the contentions did increase, insomuch that there were wars throughout all the land among all the people of Nephi.

2  And it was this secret band of robbers who did carry on this work of destruction and wickedness.  And this war did last all that year; and in the seventy and third year it did also last.

3  And it came to pass that in this year Nephi did cry unto the Lord, saying:

4  O Lord, do not suffer that this people shall be destroyed by the sword; but O Lord, rather let there be a famine in the land, to stir them up in remembrance of the Lord their God, and perhaps they will repent and turn unto thee.

5  And so it was done, according to the words of Nephi.  And there was a great famine upon the land, among all the people of Nephi.  And thus in the seventy and fourth year the famine did continue, and the work of destruction did cease by the sword but became sore by famine.

 

Exodus 32: 9:14

9  And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10  Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11  And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12  Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth?  Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13  Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14  And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

 

In Genesis 18: 20 – 33, the Lord appears to be willing to change His mind, in response to a petition from Abraham, if given sufficient reason to do so:

Genesis 18: 20-33

20  And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21  I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22  And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

23  ¶ And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24  Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25  That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26  And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27  And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, whicham but dust and ashes:

28  Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five?  And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29  And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there.  And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30  And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there.  And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31  And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there.  And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32  And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there.  And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33  And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

 

And in Ether 2: 22 – 25, in response to a prayer from the brother of Jared, the Lord effectively says, I don’t have any particular preference, how about you come up with an answer and I’ll go along with it

22  And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them.  Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?

23  And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels?  For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.

24  For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you.  Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth.

25  And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come.  Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?

 

So how much scriptural support is there for the idea that the purpose of prayer is to bring our will into alignment with His, as compared with how much scriptural support there is for the idea that the purpose of prayer is to ask our Father for what we feel we need?

[zil]

We have been taught (particularly of late) that the purpose of prayer is to learn the will of God and change our own will to match his.  However, it seems to me as if in some situations, the Lord only has plan A, and no amount of praying will get us anything other than an understanding of plan A.  At other times, however, there appear to be "backup" or "alternate" plans, so that the overall purposes of the Lord allow for some variability, and depending on our faith and what we ask for, he allows or causes things to happen in one of several possible ways - still based on his will, but in this case, his will includes the variability to respond to our righteous desires and faith.

In relation to some of the examples you cite, do we not already know from other scriptures that the Lord desires to bless us?  Therefore, cannot these examples be demonstrating the principle that some things must be requested before they are granted, no matter how much the Lord desires to bless us?  Revealed prayers, such as temple dedicatory prayers, may be similar to these, and may also be intended to teach those who hear them.

Also, I think the answer to these questions is tied up in the full meaning of faith (which I don't think we will understand as mortals, but for which the best resource I've found in Lectures on Faith).  I think we understand faith as a motivator fairly well.  I don't think we understand faith as a power terribly well.  Further, our faith must be in God and Jesus Christ.  Therefore, we don't go forward trusting they'll do what we want (that's faith in the superiority of our own will).  Rather, we go forward trusting in what God wants - this is faith in him.  In those lectures (and I think in some of the scriptures you cite) the only way we can believe that we will receive is if we understand the will of God in relation to what we're asking.  For example, I can ask all I want for a million dollars (or the means and wisdom to earn a million dollars), but until and unless I believe that this is God's will for me, how am I to believe that he'll grant my request?  On the other hand, if I know that he wants me to serve in my calling, then when I ask for guidance in that calling, it's fairly easy to believe that he'll give it.  To me, it's fairly easy to believe God can do something, and much harder to believe he will do something.

As for the Lord's prayers, I think he always knew his Father's will, so we don't see so much of this example in his prayers.  Though we do see evidence that some things must be asked for before they'll be given (a part of the principle of agency, I think).

And so we go back to the fact that we're taught to pray for the prophet.  I think it is the Lord's will to bless the prophet, and our prayers are to help us support and love the prophet - I mean, if you pray for him often enough, I think you're either going to fall into the practice of vain repetitions (to your own condemnation) or develop sincere love and concern for the prophet (to your blessing and his and those around you).

[Traveler]

I have discovered that there are 6 principles that consistently define my relationship to G-d and the answers I receive in prayers.  There may be exceptions but I have not experience any.  Sometimes people will wonder if their prayers are getting past the celling of their room – This is my understanding and I pass these principles on for your benefit and enjoyment – or discussion (pro or con) if you wish.

Principle # 1: G-d will not do for man that which he (she) is fully capable of doing for themselves.  I would add that it is not necessary unprofitable to pray for help doing thing for which one is capable it is just my experience that G-d will lead and direct but unless you are willing to do and learn to do what you can – such prayers seem to go unanswered.

Principle #2. G-d will do for us that which we cannot do or accomplish ourselves.  Not always will he intervene himself but will often inspire others to help us.  But that which no one else can do – he will do.

Principle #3: G-d will not do for us anything that does not have an eternal benefit for us.

Principle #4: G-d will do for us anything that does have an eternal benefit for us.

Principle #5: G-d will not do for us anything that is against our will or agency.

Principle #6: G-d will do for us that which we desire and strive for with all our heart, might, mind and strength and that we are willing to openly and intelligently exercise our agency to choose and endorse.

 

I would add that all the principles work in perfect concert with each other and the fulfillment of one never violates the other.  Also I made reference to the LDS Bible Dictionary concerning prayer – I would suggest all read it – I f you need a link – I will provide it but I honestly believe that knowledge of the Church website and understanding how to research such a thing should be a prerequisite for posting on this forum.  I believe that G-d know what we will ask in prayer before we ask.  But if he already knows what then is his plan and purpose in our prayer?  I believe his purpose in covered by the principles I have provided and that his plan is to so bless and benefit us but that many answers to prayer are kept in heaven and only given when we pray.  I would also add that on many occasions as I have prayed the answer has come – to get up and do something and that when I start putting in the effort – G-d will guide me but he will not do it for me.  One such example came as I considered marriage.  I prayed for a wife for some time before the answer came that G-d would assist me but the choice was mine for which I must take full responsibility.  That if, for any reason, my marriage did not work – I could in no way think G-d was in any way responsible.

 

The Traveler  

Edited September 26, 2016 by Traveler

[Anddenex]

On 9/24/2016 at 1:42 PM, askandanswer said:

 

The idea that the purpose of prayer is to bring our will into alignment with the Lord’s will seems to be a relatively new idea to me, ie, something that has emerged in the last 15 or so years. To me, this idea does not seem to have much support from the scriptures.

This Bible Dictionary has been around longer than 15 years and we can read, "As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are His children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7:7–11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings."

Helaman 5: 10, Nephi is given power that what he says will occur, why, "for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will." Nephi's will is in alignment with the Lord's will, and as such things are done "done unto thee according to [Nephi's] word."

D&C 46:28,30, "And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit... He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God; wherefore it is done even as he asketh." More evidence from scripture that when we ask, we are to ask in the Spirit (which aligns oneself to the will of God) as when we ask in spirit we are asking according to the will of God.

The purpose, motivation, of prayer has always been to align our will with God's; otherwise we face this possibility, Alma 29:4, "I ought not to harrow up in my desires the firm decree of a just God, for I know that he granteth unto men according to their desire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction."

Will God give us according to our will? Yes, and if our prayer is not in alignment with God's will (his initial will) we now must accept the future outcomes of our desire which was not in alignment with God's initial will, even to our detriment, not our blessing. The children of Israel desiring a King even though they had been counseled otherwise, with one of the most important statements made in scripture, paraphrazed, "Give them what they want. They have not rejected you. They have rejected me."

A sad example in scripture of how our will, our desires, can actually harm not only ourselves but our posterity (even a city depending on our position of rule), is that is Hezekiah. We are told, "Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live." The Lord's statement, we could even say "will" at this time was that Hezekiah would die. Hezekiah did not like this news. He prayed with all his might and received the following words from the prophet, "Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee." Hezekiah's life was extended 15 years. Within these 15 years (three years into it) Manasseh was born. Manasseh upon his fathers death took the throne, "Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem." And we are able to read this about Manasseh, "Hezekiah’s son Manasseh who, after the righteous reign of his father, reigned as one of the most wicked rulers in the history of Judah. And his mother’s name was Hephzi-bah." It was during Manasseh's reign that Isaiah was martyred. A beloved prophet murdered.

How would have Israel faired if Manasseh had not be born? How many years longer would Isaiah have lived? What was the Lord's original will, statement made by Isaiah to Hezekiah?

Yes, one of the main purposes of prayer is to align our will with the Lord's will, and it isn't new and is supported by scripture. These are just a few examples.

 

[Anddenex]

On 9/17/2016 at 4:23 PM, askandanswer said:

I believe that every day, in temples and homes and church meetings around the world, there are thousands of people praying for President Monson. How many more people would it take to pray for increased health and strength for President Monson before we could expect to see an increase in his health and strength? How many fewer people would it take to pray for an increase in President Monson’s health and strength before we could expect to see a decrease in his health and strength? Will President Monson’s current levels of health and strength be unaffected no matter how many or how few people pray for him as long as that level of health and strength is what the Lord wants it to be?

1) When a man is living a righteous life, he will not be taken before his appointed time. As to how many more people praying, impossible to know, but that many are praying is good, and one more isn't going to hurt. Where two or more are gathered in his name the Lord is there.

2) As long as one person who is praying, who has faith, we won't see a decrease in his health and strength (assuming the one praying has faith sufficient that he might be healed). The Lord is not going to negatively affect me if only 1 person is praying for me.

3) Where two or more are gathered in his name the Lord is there (Caveat: assuming there can be two or more). Elder Bednar provided an excellent talk regarding this question regarding a young couple by which the husband was diagnosed with cancer. If the Lord has specified it is your time, no matter how many prayers, we need to accept the Lord's will; otherwise we might cause more suffering to one who should be let go. Do we want our prayers to cause more suffering to one the Lord has already specified, 'It is time to come home." I will give an experience shared by a sister in one of my seminary classes. Her grandmother had a heart attack. They went to the doctor, before surgery her grandfather blessed her she that she would heal. The surgery was prestine, went the best it could, even the doctors were happy. They took her home, and within 24 hours of her being home, she suffered another heart attack and was rushed to the hospital and emergency operation was given. Again, the surgery went the best it could and she was healing. A short time later she suffered another heart attack. One of the doctors who was LDS said, "I know that you are LDS, what did you say in the blessing?" He then said, "I understand it may not be my place, but you may want to rethink your blessing." The husband, grandfather, then gave another blessing forgetting his will something to the nature of, "My beloved you have lived a good life, if it is the Lord calling you home, go with my blessing." The grandaughter in my class specified she passed away peacefully (no more heart attacks) 15 minutes after the blessing.

Yes, let us be wise in want we want, especially if they are contrary to the Lord's will.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Anddenex

[askandanswer]

6 hours ago, Anddenex said:

This Bible Dictionary has been around longer than 15 years and we can read, "As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are His children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7:7–11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings."

Helaman 5: 10, Nephi is given power that what he says will occur, why, "for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will." Nephi's will is in alignment with the Lord's will, and as such things are done "done unto thee according to [Nephi's] word."

D&C 46:28,30, "And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit... He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God; wherefore it is done even as he asketh." More evidence from scripture that when we ask, we are to ask in the Spirit (which aligns oneself to the will of God) as when we ask in spirit we are asking according to the will of God.

The purpose, motivation, of prayer has always been to align our will with God's; otherwise we face this possibility, Alma 29:4, "I ought not to harrow up in my desires the firm decree of a just God, for I know that he granteth unto men according to their desire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction."

Will God give us according to our will? Yes, and if our prayer is not in alignment with God's will (his initial will) we now must accept the future outcomes of our desire which was not in alignment with God's initial will, even to our detriment, not our blessing. The children of Israel desiring a King even though they had been counseled otherwise, with one of the most important statements made in scripture, paraphrazed, "Give them what they want. They have not rejected you. They have rejected me."

A sad example in scripture of how our will, our desires, can actually harm not only ourselves but our posterity (even a city depending on our position of rule), is that is Hezekiah. We are told, "Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live." The Lord's statement, we could even say "will" at this time was that Hezekiah would die. Hezekiah did not like this news. He prayed with all his might and received the following words from the prophet, "Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee." Hezekiah's life was extended 15 years. Within these 15 years (three years into it) Manasseh was born. Manasseh upon his fathers death took the throne, "Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem." And we are able to read this about Manasseh, "Hezekiah’s son Manasseh who, after the righteous reign of his father, reigned as one of the most wicked rulers in the history of Judah. And his mother’s name was Hephzi-bah." It was during Manasseh's reign that Isaiah was martyred. A beloved prophet murdered.

How would have Israel faired if Manasseh had not be born? How many years longer would Isaiah have lived? What was the Lord's original will, statement made by Isaiah to Hezekiah?

Yes, one of the main purposes of prayer is to align our will with the Lord's will, and it isn't new and is supported by scripture. These are just a few examples.

 

Thank you Addendex, this is helpful and informative. 

 

[Edspringer]

On 24/09/2016 at 4:42 PM, askandanswer said:

 

The idea that the purpose of prayer is to bring our will into alignment with the Lord’s will seems to be a relatively new idea to me, ie, something that has emerged in the last 15 or so years. To me, this idea does not seem to have much support from the scriptures.

 

The evidence that Christ taught this idea through His own examples of prayer seems to be somewhat ambiguous and examples in the scriptures seem to be readily capable of more than one interpretation. In the Garden of Gethsemane when He prayed, He first prayed for something that He knew was directly contrary to His Father’s will – “if it be possible, let this cup pass from me” = before finishing by saying “not as I will but as thou wilt.” One of several possible conclusions that can be drawn from this incident is that His purpose in praying was to find a way to escape what He knew was coming – if it be possible, let this cup pass from me.

 

In the Lord’s prayer, which was specifically given as an example of prayer, there is one line that could be interpreted as an attempt to bring our will into alignment with His will  - Thy kingdom come, thy will be done-  but most of the prayer is taken up with asking for specific petitions from the Father, eg, give us this day, our daily bread, forgive us our debts, lead us not into temptation, and deliver us from evil. These are all requests motivated by our own needs and desires.

 

In the other great example of prayer by Jesus, the great intercessory prayer in John 17, there is almost nothing at all about Christ bringing His will into alignment with His Father’s: much of that prayer is petitions for the benefit of His apostles who He is soon about to leave.

 

In His direct teachings about prayer, it clearly and repeatedly indicates that the primary purpose of prayer is to ask God for the righteous things that we need, and there is nothing to indicate that the purpose of prayer is to bring our will into alignment with His. For example

So how much scriptural support is there for the idea that the purpose of prayer is to bring our will into alignment with His, as compared with how much scriptural support there is for the idea that the purpose of prayer is to ask our Father for what we feel we need?

 

Well, I think this subject is worth discussing, since we’re all commanded to pray.

Elder Richard G. Scott, from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, taught:

“We pray to our Heavenly Father in the sacred name of His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ. Prayer is most effective when we strive to be clean and obedient, with worthy motives, and are willing to do what He asks. Humble, trusting prayer brings direction and peace”.

He continues:

“A key to improved prayer is to learn to ask the right questions. Consider changing from asking for the things you want to honestly seeking what He wants for you. Then as you learn His will, pray that you will be led to have the strength to fulfill it”.

(Using the supernal gift of prayer, as found in: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/04/using-the-supernal-gift-of-prayer?lang=eng).

About our Savior’s example:

Gethsemane: in fact he prayed to do the Father’s will;

Sermon on the Mount: he gave an example on how our prayers should be, including aligning our will to our Father’s;

Intercessory prayer:  our Savior demonstrated how great his character was when he prayed for his disciples instead of praying for himself, right before his greatest agony hours.

I really liked the examples from the scriptures you quoted. I understand prayer this way:

Asking is not the main purpose of prayer. We can ask, but what we ask is according to our Father’s plan for us? It is his will? We shouldn’t pray for things we already know the answer or ask for things we do not know if they are the best for us.

The Holy Ghost influences our prayers. To ask for the right things, especially for spiritual blessings, the Lord indicates us what to ask for. Nephi didn’t pray to the Lord to ask something that the Lord hadn’t indicated by His Spirit before. Abraham didn’t pray to God to alter his will. He was righteous and the scriptures say that the prayers of the righteous can do much, but because of the influence of the Spirit. Mahonry Moriancumer didn’t pray to alter the Lord’s wil, but to do what he knew by revelation what the Lord was already willing to give and don’t forget that the brother of Jared’s prayers were granted after a long time.

That’s the way I learned. Any thoughts about that?

 

[askandanswer]

On 9/29/2016 at 4:35 AM, Edspringer said:

Well, I think this subject is worth discussing, since we’re all commanded to pray.

 

Elder Richard G. Scott, from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, taught:

 

“We pray to our Heavenly Father in the sacred name of His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ. Prayer is most effective when we strive to be clean and obedient, with worthy motives, and are willing to do what He asks. Humble, trusting prayer brings direction and peace”.

 

He continues:

 

“A key to improved prayer is to learn to ask the right questions. Consider changing from asking for the things you want to honestly seeking what He wants for you. Then as you learn His will, pray that you will be led to have the strength to fulfill it”.

 

(Using the supernal gift of prayer, as found in: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/04/using-the-supernal-gift-of-prayer?lang=eng).

 

About our Savior’s example:

 

Gethsemane: in fact he prayed to do the Father’s will;

 

Sermon on the Mount: he gave an example on how our prayers should be, including aligning our will to our Father’s;

 

Intercessory prayer:  our Savior demonstrated how great his character was when he prayed for his disciples instead of praying for himself, right before his greatest agony hours.

 

I really liked the examples from the scriptures you quoted. I understand prayer this way:

 

Asking is not the main purpose of prayer. We can ask, but what we ask is according to our Father’s plan for us? It is his will? We shouldn’t pray for things we already know the answer or ask for things we do not know if they are the best for us.

 

The Holy Ghost influences our prayers. To ask for the right things, especially for spiritual blessings, the Lord indicates us what to ask for. Nephi didn’t pray to the Lord to ask something that the Lord hadn’t indicated by His Spirit before. Abraham didn’t pray to God to alter his will. He was righteous and the scriptures say that the prayers of the righteous can do much, but because of the influence of the Spirit. Mahonry Moriancumer didn’t pray to alter the Lord’s wil, but to do what he knew by revelation what the Lord was already willing to give and don’t forget that the brother of Jared’s prayers were granted after a long time.

 

That’s the way I learned. Any thoughts about that?

 

 

 

Thanks Ed, this has given me food for thought and added to my understanding. If I only prayed for those things which the Lord indicated, I suspect my prayers would be less frequent and shorter. But probably more effective.